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None of those things Feth up Star Trek. That's what makes Star Trek Star Trek. They're communist utopians and there's nothing wrong with that. Not every sci-fi universe should be the same. That's what makes sci-fi great it can cover completely different themes and concepts.

Have to agree - it's this utopia and humanity's optimism that got me to watch Trek in the first place. I mean, if I wanted grimdark and a more gritty setting where humans behave like humans do today, then I watch Star Wars. Which I do too, depending on the mood. This way, all the franchises can offer me something unique.

And I don't think Roddenberry "fethed up" Trek. Most of what you, Amaya, label as inconsistencies can easily be explained by pointing to the "try to be good" schpiel I mentioned in my last post.

Let's touch upon the issues you mentioned as examples of how I mean this:

There have been human societies that existed without money (or still do), simply based on the concept of unity and mutual cooperation. It's the communist ideal, and if a society actually manages to instill such selflessness in its members that they can resist the corrupting lure of greed, then it can work out. Especially if said society has access to technology that is capable of covering everyone's basic needs and let people live in paradise.
Yes, money is not inherently evil, it's just a gateway drug to power, corruption and abuse. Blame humanity for being so vulnerable.

"The Federation can't cloak" was a political deal intended to diffuse the tension amongst the Romulan Neutral Zone and end/prevent an unnecessary war triggered by nothing than one side's paranoia. The Romulans regarded this tech as an important advantage, and the Federation was okay with letting them think they keep the upper hand by this if it means that they don't see the UFP as an aggressor.

Lastly, "no Starfleet officers would go rogue" is BS. This was a topic that was already touched upon in TOS, and multiple times at that.



It even ties in with the "Federation can't cloak" deal in that a part of Starfleet secretly and illegally developed an advanced cloaking/phasing device with the so-called Pegasus-incident in TNG - and Roddenberry still had a say in matters at that point in time.

No, personally, I actually think that Trek was "fethed up" as Roddenberry lost influence, and some people decided to start pandering to different audiences. As much as I like the DS9 Dominion War episodes, they are not really Trek but more like Star Wars, focusing on lots of explosions and spaceships that suddenly behave like starfighters, dodging lasers and blowing gak up. No wonder this culminated in "Lensflare Trek", and I'm actually somewhat surprised they didn't get Michael Bay rather than JJ for the new movies.

Roddenberry specifically disallowed cloaking because "heroes don't use sneak around."

Gene Roddenberry indicated in various interviews that "our heroes don't sneak around", indicating that the Federation made a conscious decision to not develop cloaking technology.

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Cloaking_device#Federation_encounters_with_cloaking_technology

He refused to approve the TNG episode "Conspiracy" unless the paristic aliens were added to control the officers in Star Fleet.

"The original version of the script did not feature alien parasites; the conspiracy in question was simply a military coup within Starfleet. Gene Roddenberry vehemently opposed such an idea, since he believed Starfleet would never stoop to such methods; there was just no way Tormé could get away with suggesting that the Federation was anything less than a perfect government. Thus the alien angle was introduced at his insistence. (DS9 later featured a similar plot, however, in the two-part episodes "Homefront" and "Paradise Lost".) "

http://en.memory-alpha.org/wiki/Conspiracy_(episode)

Please give me an example of large and successful nation that does not use money.

Amaya wrote:Roddenberry specifically disallowed cloaking because "heroes don't use sneak around."

And that has what to do with the actual in-universe reasoning?

Amaya wrote:He refused to approve the TNG episode "Conspiracy" unless the paristic aliens were added to control the officers in Star Fleet.

Yet apparently he had no problem with entire departments of Starfleet illegally developing cloaking tech and being engaged in a large-scale coverup.

See, there's a difference between a group of officers raised in an ideaistic society suddenly turning into warmongering dictators, or merely doing bad things because they feel it's for the greater good.
The former is indeed a bit unrealistic within the confines of setting.

Star Trek VI touched upon that topic, too.

Amaya wrote:Please give me an example of large and successful nation that does not use money.

The Inka were fairly successful back in their days.

That you do not see a large and successful nation like that now is, in large part, thanks to the massive efforts of the capitalist block in sabotaging any such efforts with methods ranging from propaganda all the way to covert sabotage, embargoes, manipulation of elections, and political assassination, pouring massive amounts of wealth into the Cold War because the establishment felt threatened by an alternate lifestyle possibly challenging their power over the people. Ultimately, the bulk of humans today are not idealists like the politicians that may sometimes lead them, but still rather easy to manipulate, with skilled and powerful agents pampering to their individual dreams and fears and greeds and thus leading them to discard the bigger picture - even where the latter might actually end up being better for society as a whole.

That's mankind's biggest hurdle, I think. Something as idealistic as communism can only have a real chance of success if there's no outside influence trying to appeal to people's egoism, as it will take generations to breed that corrupting influence out of our minds.
Within the setting of Star Trek, this was achieved in the aftermath of WW3 that had humanity be on the brink of destruction, followed by First Contact with a peaceful alien species and the subsequent unification of Earth.

Yeah the Inka. How many products were they trading? Over how large an area? Both would be miniscule by today's standards. A system of credit is needed to attribute value to goods and services. Go ahead and blame the capitalists. There's no point arguing with people who can't sit down and think about an issue logically. How would you exchange goods and services without a system of credit (ie money)? It certainly works on a small scale, but the becomes exponentially more complicated as more products are introduced.

We're talking about a world were you just say whatever you want into a hole in the wall of your apartment and it materializes. I don't even know what your point is Amaya other than "this isn't the fictional universe I would have created". That's great, good for you. It's the fictional world they created. Sorry they let you down.

I'm definatly going to see the movie with my dad, he was the one that got me into science fiction (40k, star trek, doctor who, star wars, etc.). I'm not sure about the game, I'll just wait and see.

May 17th.

I don't think I can wait that long.

A Star Treak game needs to be handled by the people who developed Heavy Rain. It needs to be a psychological game and not a straight up action game.