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 Admiral Valerian wrote:
This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.

The title of Warmaster is bestowed by the Highlords of Terra for a specific crusade and is still second in rank to the Lord Commander Militant.

I have no specific opinion on the matter, but I think you have different scenarios :

Roboute wakes up in his chapel, under the eyes of thousand of pilgrims and an UM detachement. Everyone can witness his return to life.

A strange dark guy turns up somewhere, goes to a bar, jump on a table and shouts"I'm Corax! Yes, yes I am!!!"

The first is likely to be included quickly in the political circuit (with the usual cloak and dagger stuff attached). The other one is likely to be shot by the first detachement of SM or IG comming by, just for being a strange and crazy lunatic.

Admiral Valerian wrote:This assumes Lion or some other Primarch turned the tide of a Black Crusade that actually reached the Imperial throne world, and became Warmaster. By this point, he can not only command the Imperium's commanders, but has Commissars, Inquisitors, and so on by his side supposedly for advice, but also to keep an eye on him. See what I mean? Those same advisers/Terran overseers can also be asked for assistance with regards to people who get in the way of the war effort.

That war effort, yes. But aside from what KingDeath mentioned, becoming Warmaster also does not mean that everyone in your army suddenly forsakes all their existing allegiances and becomes loyal only to you, especially amongst the types of characters you listed. Telling them to do you certain weird favours with the intention of furthering your own goals for someday challenging the High Lords will only evoke attention - and as you mentioned, such a character would be under a lot of scrutiny. The Imperium is kind of wary of people commanding such power ever since Horus abused it, only bestowing this title temporarily when absolutely needed. And whilst I can certainly imagine a returning Primarch - hypothetically - being granted this level of authority for the purpose of leading a campaign, it'd come with a lot of strings attached.

 Lynata wrote:
But aside from what KingDeath mentioned, becoming Warmaster also does not mean that everyone in your army suddenly forsakes all their existing allegiances and becomes loyal only to you

Yeah, that wasn't even true during the Horus Heresy, and people were far less intelligent and more easily fooled in that era.

 Melissia wrote:
...far less intelligent and more easily fooled in that era.

More easily fooled, yes. But only because no one expected anyone would betray the dream of unity. Less intelligent? No. Back then people were actually encouraged to think instead of mindlessly ranting "BELIEVE! BELIEVE! BELIEVE!"

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Based on?

 Void__Dragon wrote:
Based on?

The blind loyalty most marines gave to their primarchs is a shining example of the refusal to think for oneself in the Horus Heresy era.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

 Melissia wrote:
The blind loyalty most marines gave to their primarchs is a shining example of the refusal to think for oneself in the Horus Heresy era.

The Primarchs inspire awe and sway people to their sides not just due to charisma, but by virtue of the immense psychic power they radiate (Like a smaller version of what the Emperor does). Beyond that, Marines are genetically built for loyalty towards their Primarch.

What of the people that rebelled that were not Space Marines?

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

You could kinda say the same thing for Rome vs the Dark Ages, though when all your smart people get rubbed, and everything they wrote gets burned, it only leaves the insipid behind.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

The Imperium also faced far fewer and far lesser threats during those two centuries as well.

Dorn would be alright, i don't really care for ole' Mufasa, bit of an emo. Corax is too quiet. Russ pretty much only wants to smash things and listen to Amon Amarth. Papa Smurf, as he were, is one of the few diplomats among them. Despite the general hatred of the Ultramarines in the community they are admittedly the most organized and reliable of the chapters. Maybe if they all chipped in a kidney each the Emperor would get better? then he could go into the Eye, headbutt Khorne, tip antibiotics on Nurgle, choke big bird with his own rubic's cube and smack slannesh's bum for being a very naughty goat boy.

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:

 Melissia wrote:

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Back then people were actually encouraged to think

And then promptly ignored that encouragement nine times out of ten.

Oh really?

EDIT: The Imperium advanced more in the two centuries of the Great Crusade than in the ten thousand years and more since.

The Imperium also faced far fewer and far lesser threats during those two centuries as well.

Oh really? As I recall, the Ghazghkull's Waaagh! was the worst since Ulaanor. The fact that Horus and Co. completely crushed that Waaagh! rather than simply driving them off means that the 30k Imperium IS stronger than it's 40k iteration.

 Admiral Valerian wrote:
Oh really? As I recall, the Ghazghkull's Waaagh! was the worst since Ulaanor. The fact that Horus and Co. completely crushed that Waaagh! rather than simply driving them off means that the 30k Imperium IS stronger than it's 40k iteration.

They didn't face the Tyranids or Necrons, even Urrlak Urruk's Waaagh was nothing more than a throwaway compared to the utter badassery and skill of Ghazghkull. Ghazghkull had actual intelligence, strategy, and thought, and wasn't merely just a big dumb brute like Urrlak Urruk. The sheer NUMBER of threats that the modern Imperium faces is far larger than the great crusade faced. The Tau were created as nothing more than an example oef the various small alien empires that the Imperium faces in 40k.

I seriously doubt that even if the Primarchs returned they would be interested in doing much more than fighting the traitor legions anyhow.

Lion El'Jonson has half a legion to hunt down, Leman Russ, Corvus Corax, Vulkan, and Jaghatai Khan all were far more interested in war than in politics. Of all the Loyalists Only Roboute Guilliman had any political ability. Even then, he doesn't really seem like the type to rock the boat. Would they appreciate the decline of the Imperium? Not likely, but the enemies of Man kind are many, and they really really like killing them

 Melissia wrote:
They didn't face the Tyranids or Necrons, even Ulaanor's Waaagh was nothing more than a throwaway compared to the utter badassery and skill of Ghazghkull. The sheer NUMBER of threats that the modern Imperium faces is far larger than the great crusade faced.

True to that, but I will note just one WAAAGH!!! that was bigger then any other wagh - even Gazzy's one.

Battle of Gyros-Thravian led by Warboss Gharkul Blackfang, I don't know the size of his WARGH!!! but it'w warmachine was able to tie down THREE ENTIRE SPACE MARINE LEGIONS ( the Imperial Fists, Luna Wolves, and Death Guard ) WITH THEIR PRIMARCHS AND HE WAS EVEN CLOSE IN DEFEATING THEM. He was only defeated when Emperor arrived with 1,000 Custodes and did a job that 3 of his Astartes Legions with their Primarchs couldn't. This tells you something about Custodes, especially when the lose just 3 of them and slayed literally over 100.000 Orks...

Gazzy's WARGH was the biggest one that modern Imperium faced so far and it was brought to a stand still, the 3'rd war count as Imeprial voctory as the Imperal Gaurd has no problem in pacyfyign waht remained of Gazy's force. That was the biggest one modern Imperium faced so far, now imagine a WARGH that was powerful enough to almost defeat 3 entire Legions. The note say that the battle happened near the end of the great Crusade, when 3 Legions numbered around 365.000 Astartes ( Sons of Horus - Between 130,000 and 170,000, Imperial Fists - 100,000, Death Guard - 95,000 ) and + their Primarchs were in battle with them - and he was almost near defeating them until the Emperor showed with 1000 Custodes and literally destroyed the Orks. No Ork threat in modern Imeprium history ( after HH ) was big as this one, even Tyranid 1'st and 2'nd war fail in comparison to this.

TYPING IN ALL CAPS MAKES MY ARGUMENT BETTER!

Could be that my information is just out of date, but I don't recall the Administration of Terra, or the rest of the empire, being the domain of the Primarchs in the first place.

The Emperor created them to crusade against his enemies. They were all soldiers not politicians. They were never intended to rule. Before the siege of Terra, when the Emperor started making preparations for what he knew was going to happen, he ordered the creation of the Inquisition to (and all it's branches and offices) to watch over his empire internally. He created the offices of the High Lords of Terra, and The Administratum. And he did all of that while his sons that remained loyal rallied to his defense. Those sons didn't complain, they all happily fulfilled their role as soldiers, and left the ruling of the empire to the bodies that the Emperor created for those purposes.

Hell the whole concept of "foundings" is based on the fact that after the heresy, once the Primarchs had chased the traitor legions to the EoT, they came back to Terra, and never tried to seize power. They pretty much fell in line with the structure that the Emperor laid out. The Adeptus Astartes are barely even a part of the Imperium anyway. They don't fall under any of the existing branches... they are completely set off. Even the High Lords of Terra acknowledged that and dubbed them "The Cult of the Emperor" essentially making them the only members of the Imperium not forced to follow the Imperial Creed, or bow to the Ministratum.

I don't see why the return of any Primarchs would cause a shift in power.

But then, I don't think any of them will return anyway so...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:True to that, but I will note just one WAAAGH!!! that was bigger then any other wagh - even Gazzy's one.

Codex: Orks would disagree with that assessment.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Battle of Gyros-Thravian led by Warboss Gharkul Blackfang, I don't know the size of his WARGH!!! but it'w warmachine was able to tie down THREE ENTIRE SPACE MARINE LEGIONS ( the Imperial Fists, Luna Wolves, and Death Guard ) WITH THEIR PRIMARCHS AND HE WAS EVEN CLOSE IN DEFEATING THEM. He was only defeated when Emperor arrived with 1,000 Custodes and did a job that 3 of his Astartes Legions with their Primarchs couldn't. This tells you something about Custodes, especially when the lose just 3 of them and slayed literally over 100.000 Orks...

It tells me that (a) it shows how much missing support of the Imperial Guard would hamper the Space Marines and (b) that some novel writers seem to smoke some weird stuff.

I guess those books work out if you regard them like a movie like "300" ...

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The note say that the battle happened near the end of the great Crusade, when 3 Legions numbered around 365.000 Astartes and + their Primarchs were in battle with them

Armageddon had about half as many Marines, but obviously many, many more regiments of Imperial Guard - easily offsetting that number if we go by Dorn's assessment. And a Primarch is ultimately just a Space Marine +1 and quite killable, as the aforementioned Mr. Dorn has shown.

Provide the circumstances of Dorn's death.

Are we sure Dorn is dead? All we have is his hand.

I think if the primarchs returned they would not be impressed by the state of the imperium because it has completely changed and i think that they would probably have to resort to overthrowing the high lords so they could put the imperium back on track. The idea of space marines siding with the primarchs and imperial guard, sisters of battle etc siding with the high lords would lead to an interesting little civil war imagine that combined with an assault from the eye by unified traitors and at the very last the emperor makes a miraculous recovery that would be awesome.

 Lynata wrote:
Codex: Orks would disagree with that assessment.

I was telling about WARGH encountered by Imperium, in their records only this and Gazzy one were two big ones. The one was beaten, twice, while the other one required Emperor himself to be ended. I call that a win.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
as the aforementioned Mr. Dorn has shown.

The only 2 records we have about his death are from Space Marine novel ( witch came out in 1993 ) and Index Astartes, even there it wasn't explained how they died and that was written before they made unstoppable super-human warriors that can shake mountain when fighting.

Fluff will be changed when HH get's there, the most logical explanation would be that he is in Trayzn's hands.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Lynata wrote:
It tells me that (a) it shows how much missing support of the Imperial Guard would hamper the Space Marines and (b) that some novel writers seem to smoke some weird stuff.

Except that we know that now you need several and more Regiments to conquer a world or even a system if it's lightly defended.
Back then you could conquer entire empires or wipe out a race with just one Legion. And this Warboss almost defeated 3 Legions... that tells you something about this guy... he must have been Gazzy's grand grandfather

As no one seems to have read the fluff in the BRB, I'd like to point out that the Imperium managed to stop the Waagh! of "the Beast" in M.32. It was explicitly bigger than that on Ullanor.

A primarch assuming control of the Imperium would be a terrible scenario.

Aside from the ensuing civil war etc they wouldn't be up to the task. There's no way one being could effectively rule the Imperium and deal with all it's myriad of threats. If the Imperium were anymore centralised it would collapse.

Besides save Guilliman i wouldn't want any of the primachs running the Imperium. They're war leaders, generals, not politicians. Their talents are best used on the battlefield.

The smart thing to do would be to reinstate the position of Warmaster as a permanent office place a massive crusade force under his control. He can then devote himself to the most pressing military threats facing the Imperium.

Thread makes no sense.

The High Lords are not the Primarchs' replacements. They existed before the HH.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:I was telling about WARGH encountered by Imperium, in their records only this and Gazzy one were two big ones.

Armageddon is the biggest one.

"The planet remains besieged by an Ork invasion of unprecedented size, and Ghazgkull has since laid waste to dozens of planets around Armageddon."
4E C:O - p24

Also, what AlmightyWalrus said. The Beast was larger than Ullanor, and Armageddon is larger than the Beast.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:The only 2 records we have about his death are from Space Marine novel ( witch came out in 1993 ) and Index Astartes, even there it wasn't explained how they died and that was written before they made unstoppable super-human warriors that can shake mountain when fighting.

What? The Index Astartes already included those legends and myths.

I don't care much about how some Black Library novel breaks with established studio fluff next, but even assuming your theory about survival and captivity, at the end of the day he would still have been beaten by a bunch of line troops guarding a random Chaos cruiser's bridge. Whether he was actually killed or merely crippled and captured is of less significance than the defeat itself.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Except that we know that now you need several and more Regiments to conquer a world or even a system if it's lightly defended.
Back then you could conquer entire empires or wipe out a race with just one Legion. And this Warboss almost defeated 3 Legions... that tells you something about this guy... he must have been Gazzy's grand grandfather

Back then you only needed "one Legion" because back then 90% of the worlds the Imperium reconquered were lost human colonies populated by barbarian tribes or isolated pockets of civilisation that somehow managed not to regress further than the Atomic Age.

And strictly going by the fluff, I can provide incidents where a single Space Marine Chapter was enough to recapture a rebelling planet. Hell, if I really wanted to stick to the exact wording, I'd point towards the Order of the Bloody Rose, a bunch of Battle Sisters "liberating a hundred worlds with a force of only a thousand warriors." And that's a Codex quote.

rems01 wrote:Besides save Guilliman i wouldn't want any of the primachs running the Imperium. They're war leaders, generals, not politicians. Their talents are best used on the battlefield.
The smart thing to do would be to reinstate the position of Warmaster as a permanent office place a massive crusade force under his control. He can then devote himself to the most pressing military threats facing the Imperium.

Agreed on both.

 Lynata wrote:
Also, what AlmightyWalrus said. The Beast was larger than Ullanor, and Armageddon is larger than the Beast.

Not true, 6'th edition fluff says that Armageddon 3'rd war was great conflict and that The Beast Arises was the biggest wargh that galaxy has ever seen. Since galaxy is in size much bigger than Imeprium....

I don't care much about how some Black Library novel breaks with established studio fluff next, but even assuming your theory about survival and captivity, at the end of the day he would still have been beaten by a bunch of line troops guarding a random Chaos cruiser's bridge. Whether he was actually killed or merely crippled and captured is of less significance than the defeat itself.

True, we shall let what will writers decide on this point.

Back then you only needed "one Legion" because back then 90% of the worlds the Imperium reconquered were lost human colonies populated by barbarian tribes or isolated pockets of civilization that somehow managed not to regress further than the Atomic Age.

Well not all were like that, Interex was quite powerful and even technologically powerful empire and it has fallen under Luna Wolves. Emtire race Laer was destroye dby Emperor's Children, with high losses I agree - but still...
I am sure there were many powerful enemies, but they were simply not mentioned in fluff so far.

And strictly going by the fluff, I can provide incidents where a single Space Marine Chapter was enough to recapture a rebelling planet. Hell, if I really wanted to stick to the exact wording, I'd point towards the Order of the Bloody Rose, a bunch of Battle Sisters "liberating a hundred worlds with a force of only a thousand warriors." And that's a Codex quote.

So you are agreeing with me that Guard is not quite necessary for Chapters and Orders who number several thousand warrior to conquer a world or system? Good...
But seriously, I agree with you here - you cannot conquer a world with mere feww hundred or thousand solders - super solders or not.


And guys, when I asked if they would gave power I didn't men political but military - would HLoT return to Primarchs rule over Astartes as well as giving them to take command over Guard and Navy units. I know that only Primarch fit to rule Imperium is Guiliman, but what about military power? Would High Lord give military power to them without question or would they rebel for that?
And additional question to that: would they object if the returning Primarch decide to forge Legions again?

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:Not true, 6'th edition fluff says that Armageddon 3'rd war was great conflict and that The Beast Arises was the biggest wargh that galaxy has ever seen. Since galaxy is in size much bigger than Imeprium....

Hmmh, it could be a matter of semantics. Was it the biggest Waaagh the galaxy has ever seen up to that point or is it the biggest Waaagh that the galaxy will ever see?
Granted, it's a slim argument. More important may be the fact that The Beast was not a single huge invasion but rather reads like a whole number of incursions happening "across the Imperium". In other words, if these incursions were all the result of a single Waaagh, then Armageddon may still be the largest single invasion, even if the number of Orks attacking Armageddon was smaller than the number of Orks that made up the entirety of the greenskin forces wreaking havoc during The Beast.

That said, it's not really important enough to actually debate the difference, given that "The Beast" was also long after the Heresy, so the point still stands.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:So you are agreeing with me that Guard is not quite necessary for Chapters and Orders who number several thousand warrior to conquer a world or system? Good...
But seriously, I agree with you here - you cannot conquer a world with mere feww hundred or thousand solders - super solders or not.

My main argument would be that you cannot conquer a world or a system with just several thousand warriors when you actually have a notable opposition. This is in line with the Space Marines' description in GW studio material:
"The Space Marines are the Imperium's elite fighting troops, a core of highly mobile shock troops trained to fight on land and in space. On the battlefield they are expected to take part in the most dangerous and important attacks, to hold their positions no matter how hopeless their situation. Space Marines are entrusted with all sorts of perilous missions, such as lightning raids behind enemy lines, infiltration attacks to capture vital positions, and tunnel fights in enemy held cities. They also undertake long voyages of planetary exploration and conquest on behalf of the Imperium, earmarking planets which are too well defended so that they can be attacked later with the support of the Imperial Guard."

Generally, we both seem to agree on it being a bit ridiculous how every so often we read about small forces capturing entire planets. I am trying to rationalise it with the report simply omitting auxiliary forces such as the Imperial Guard - or, in the case of Canoness Aspira's liberation campaign, an army of frateris militia. Whilst not being a GW product, I actually liked how Dawn of War Soulstorm represented the Sisterhood's modus operandi in this regard: one of the sector descriptions mentioned them recruiting volunteers from the population of Kaurava. So even though you never actually saw them in the game as a unit, the background did at least mention them in passing.

Brother Captain Alexander wrote:And guys, when I asked if they would gave power I didn't men political but military - would HLoT return to Primarchs rule over Astartes as well as giving them to take command over Guard and Navy units. I know that only Primarch fit to rule Imperium is Guiliman, but what about military power? Would High Lord give military power to them without question or would they rebel for that?
And additional question to that: would they object if the returning Primarch decide to forge Legions again?

Ohhh, that's a far more interesting question.
I think it would depend on the Primarch in question. The manner of his return, his (possibly revisioned) history, his personality, his behaviour, and his willingness to work together with existing Imperial institutions rather than forcing an issue. I could very well see the High Lords grant a Primarch authority over Guard and Navy forces, perhaps Arbites and Sisters as well. Wasn't Dante made Warmaster during the Second War for Armageddon, for that particular warzone?

Or are you thinking all Imperial forces, like Guillaume back then? That's notably less likely given how much time has passed ... but I could see it happen.
I'm impartial to a Primarch actually returning, though. If it's one we know for sure still being around (-> the guys in stasis), okay, but please don't resurrect those who are considered or believed dead. It'll be bad enough that any Primarch returns, for I'm sure that most fiction and a lot of fans would describe it as if Jesus would show up and singlehandedly pull humanity out of trouble. Eugh. To me, 40k shouldn't be about individual characters but rather humanity's struggle as a whole. Much more grimdark that way, and less likely to delve into a cartoonish superhero format. At the same time, I will say that with all the tension that GW has built up regarding the Thirteenth Black Crusade it almost feels like a given that something extraordinary should happen there.