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Since this topic is only on page 6 and is only two weeks old(forum rules dictate topics several weeks old will be closed), I felt it would be better to make a post on this topic rather than create a whole new topic and it would keep together all of the revelant points of discussion already made in one visible easy to access area instead of quoting another thread.

With that out of the way, I wanted to say that I like many of you have run afoul of this issue, while creating a terminator army for the first time I was wondering about this exact weapon configuration myself.


Party A feels that you shouldn't be able to since you are told specifically in bullet 2 that you must replace all weapons to receive these new weapons.

While Party B feels that you satisfy the rule of replacing all weapons in bullet 2 by replacing the model's current wargear with a option from bullet 2 and then are to take a cyclone missile launcher since you have already satisfied the previous condition.



I feel the first party's argument doesn't make sense to me, although I see some merit in their argument the way they handle the purchasing of options for units is counter-intuitive I feel.

What I mean by that is going out of order of the listed equipment upgrades causes problems, for instance you start with a group of 5 terminators yet there is a option at the bottom for you to take X weapon for every 5 terminators in your squad.

Which means you'd already had to have had a squad of 10 to be able to use that option, now you could say that you retroactively add them to make it work but that doesn't make sense when the way the options are written is clearly intended for you to go down the options in the order it's listed.

Using the librarian as an example, in bullet 3 it says the librarian may replace his power armor bolt pistol and grenades for terminator armor, furthermore it says a librarian in terminator armor can only take X equipment options, if you had bought things in bullet 2 purchasing terminator armor in bullet 3 completey invalidates what you bought in bullet 2 because bullet three explicitly states what options you are allowed to take

Does it make sense to have to pay for wargear that get;s immediately replaced in the next bullet because it's conditional? No of course not you aren' taking those items you have to choose between.

The only way this works is if you go in order.

Same thing with unit compositions, why would you buy equipment that's determinate on the number of models in the squad if you have not even decided how many models your buying? What about options that replace gear you already have?

Going back to the terminators

1.You first decide whether or not to purchase more terminators
2. you decide if you want to replace your current wargear with the options given
3. any of the models that decided not to swap out their weapons can now choose this weapon if they want
4. For every 5 models in your squad you are allowed to take one of the following, the first three options specifically stating that you replace your storm bolter, now remember from option 2 if you already swapped out your bolter the first three options cannot apply to that terminator because they don't have a storm bolter to trade in. The last option simply states that the model can take a cyclone missile launcher, not replace it with anything, so any terminator in the squad up to a maximum of 2 if you took 10 models can take a cyclone missile launcher regardless of whatever previous options they have already taken, there is no condition limiting the CML other than you can only take 1 per 5 models in the group.
5. You have the option of taking a specific dedicated transport.

If you proceed about this any other way you will always be forced to retroactively change everything in your squad, based on the order that the options are listed in I find it very hard to believe that all of these options could happen simultaneously; especially after pointing out that each bullet follows a order and makes future options dependent on previous options.

I would like a FAQ on this matter as well but I cannot abide by party A's opinion because it disregards the need for going in the order the options are listed which I believe is a universal truth for every codex not just for codex dark angels.

No hard feelings, I'm not out after anyone I just feel that Party B's approach is the only one that works based on the reasons I gave above, option lists follow a specific order that cannot be circumvented.

Edit: Because you have to follow the order of the options given bullet 2 is referring to all of the weapons you currently possess, there is no way you could have a CML already when bullet 2 is occuring, so when they say replace all weapons they mean all weapon your model currently has which is the bolter and fist or the sword if your a sgt, bullet 2 does not continue onward to prevent you from purchasing additional options, conditions are given in later options detailing what you may or may not take. Additionaly the CML is a shoulder attached weapon and does not interfer with hand to hand options nor is forbidden which the options given, it may be uncommon for models to carry more weapons than they can use at one time which is why in assault we have to choose which weapons were are using and the other weapon just provides attack bonuses, which is why we are only allowed to fire one weapon in the shooting phase unless we are given a rule that allows us to do so, no matter how many we are allowed to carry by the codex options.

It's simple. As the owner of the army/unit in question, you choose the order that you purchase upgrades in.

Any other method creates problems with multiple units, from multiple armies, as demonstrated from multiple examples, given by multiple people, over multiple pages here.

If something says, "Replace X with the following..." then you may only take that upgrade if you have X to trade.
If it says "Any model may take Y" then you can take it at any point when upgrading your unit.

GW has multiple rules describing situations and how they happen. In all cases where examples are given of multiple things occurring at the same time, GW states that the controlling player chooses the order in which those simultaneous events are resolved. So even if upgrades are purchased "simultaneously", the controlling player would choose the order.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It's simple. As the owner of the army/unit in question, you choose the order that you purchase upgrades in.

Any other method creates problems with multiple units, from multiple armies, as demonstrated from multiple examples, given by multiple people, over multiple pages here.

If something says, "Replace X with the following..." then you may only take that upgrade if you have X to trade.
If it says "Any model may take Y" then you can take it at any point when upgrading your unit.

GW has multiple rules describing situations and how they happen. In all cases where examples are given of multiple things occurring at the same time, GW states that the controlling player chooses the order in which those simultaneous events are resolved. So even if upgrades are purchased "simultaneously", the controlling player would choose the order.

this.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:
It's simple. As the owner of the army/unit in question, you choose the order that you purchase upgrades in.

Any other method creates problems with multiple units, from multiple armies, as demonstrated from multiple examples, given by multiple people, over multiple pages here.

If something says, "Replace X with the following..." then you may only take that upgrade if you have X to trade.
If it says "Any model may take Y" then you can take it at any point when upgrading your unit.

GW has multiple rules describing situations and how they happen. In all cases where examples are given of multiple things occurring at the same time, GW states that the controlling player chooses the order in which those simultaneous events are resolved. So even if upgrades are purchased "simultaneously", the controlling player would choose the order.

I think I understand what your saying, it being dependent on the exact entry, some are listed in a way that there might actually be an order to follow, whereas other options are listed in a way that allows you to work out a unit in a order different from top to bottom and following a strict order of succession wouldn't necessarily work.

Is that right? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just seeing if I understand what you posted.

 Dervos wrote:

Is that right? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just seeing if I understand what you posted.

Basically, yes. But because some would work if purchased straight down the line, and others wouldn't, the only universal rule that makes all codices work is: The purchasing player picks the order.

 BetrayTheWorld wrote:

 Dervos wrote:

Is that right? Not trying to put words in your mouth, just seeing if I understand what you posted.

Basically, yes. But because some would work if purchased straight down the line, and others wouldn't, the only universal rule that makes all codices work is: The purchasing player picks the order.

Except when FAQ'd otherwise.

I would say RAW, option 1 is the correct answer.

Given the respective differences in how the army list entries are laid out.

I believe the key word when referring to the standard DW unit entry is "take", it doesn't replace, with regards to the Cyclone Missile Launcher.

http://www.games-workshop.com/MEDIA_CustomProductCatalog/m3180051a_Dark_Angels_v1.1A_APRIL13.pdf

New FAQ is up

Bullet 2 has been changed from All weapons to

"Any model may replace his storm bolter and power fist with....."

So yes....

Although GW did create a new problem, as now Deathwing Sergeants can't take TH/SS, as they don't have a PFist to replace.

How is that a problem? It's an annoyance if you run that set up, but it's not a problem. If you really need someone to run TH/SS and take challenges take Belial or suit up an Int-Chap or Libby