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Overall I like it, but I hate how troops section is so lacking,and fast attack is full of stuff I want.

Tau faq is up

 Davylove21 wrote:
Loving it - already written my battlescribe catalogue for it (find it helps me imbibe a codex) and can already see some great combinations and strong anti-assault lists

I'd post my battlescribe catalogue but I don't know how forum rules go with that sort of thing

They're fine with it. You should PM me a copy.

Edit: Nvm, found it.

I bought the new pathfinder box, anyone figured out a solid load out for them. How many should I build standard carbines?, what drones from the box are best to build.

Cheers

I'm tempted to run them as 3 Rail Rifle + 2 Markerlights - but I plan on having Markerlights everywhere. Depends on opponent though

Considering two units of 6 marker drones to supporting fire on overwatching with a tricked out FW squad for insane dakka at likely BS3

Are rail rifles still S6 AP3, btw?

I believe they automatically come with pulse carbine and markerlights, so you would choose which your shooting.

Rail rifles are str 6 ap 1.

The one thing that really annoys me about the new codex is that the pathfinders are the only ones that can use the pulse accelerator and grav dones. Those drones are awesome, but would be way more useful on most other units, and it doesn't really seem overpowered to let other units use them. Maybe raise the point cost a little, but let my suits have that charge negator and my fire warriors their extra 6 inches!

Shinzra wrote:
I believe they automatically come with pulse carbine and markerlights, so you would choose which your shooting.

Rail rifles are str 6 ap 1.

AP1? That's a bit better than I remember it being.

It was S6 AP3 Heavy 1 before, wasn't it?

am i loosing my mind? There are no costs for support systems?

NinjaStars wrote:The one thing that really annoys me about the new codex is that the pathfinders are the only ones that can use the pulse accelerator and grav dones. Those drones are awesome, but would be way more useful on most other units, and it doesn't really seem overpowered to let other units use them. Maybe raise the point cost a little, but let my suits have that charge negator and my fire warriors their extra 6 inches!

36" range Fire Warriors would probably be too good and more or less an autoinclude, while 24" Pathfinders are a much more interesting choice.

DanFST wrote:am i loosing my mind? There are no costs for support systems?

Take a look at page 95.

Thankyou Kingsley

One thing i do not like about the new codex is the layout, minus the page at the end for stats which pops out. And with No quartermaster template yet it's something i will have to reluctantly get used to.

 Kingsley wrote:

NinjaStars wrote:

36" range Fire Warriors would probably be too good and more or less an autoinclude, while 24" Pathfinders are a much more interesting

I could see the argument that might be op, the only evidence I can offer to the contrary is that the forum consensus seems to be fire warriors are still a little weak. Regardless of the power level of the pulse drone, I was more into the grav drone anyway.

Backfire wrote:
Sky Rays suck against non-Air threats, even more than before

They're an anti-air platform that's very good at its role and provide missiles for markerlights, they're rather good for what they do.

and it doesn't matter how "cheap" Hammerheads are, since their abilities suck compared to what they were in the old book

What, just because they can't move 12 and fire at full ballistic skill? That was always an upgrade item, and they got way cheaper.

Bad changes exist, but this is just a case of "the sky is falling". Paying the price of a barebones Hellhound to get an AV13 skimmer with BS4 and an S10 Ap1 72" gun that can also fire an S6 AP4 large blats is a bargain relative to any possible equivalent. For their cost, there is no better battle tank, and they have far more upgrade options than others.

Yes, obviously if tanks are not that great under 6th ed basic rules, answer to that is to take away what little advantages they had before and make them even suckier. -<sarcasm. And really, I don't care what suits and Markerlights gain, I didn't start to play Tau because of them.

Biggest travesty of the whole debacle is that what the Tau players would have lost, if the tanks were kept as they were under the old Codex?

All they're missing is an upgrade item to move 12" and shoot at full BS and a wargear item that was Errata'd twice (and no longer bore any resemblance to its 4E incarnation) is no longer stupidly powerful for a ridiculously low-auto-take cost. Nothing about the tanks themselves or inherent to the fundamental nature of the army was changed. People just perceived them as such because they were such cheap auto-take items.

NOTHING! Tau players who loved suits, Fire warriors and Markerlights would have lost NOTHING even if the tanks had kept their old abilities which kept them playable, and unique to Tau. If they didn't care for tanks, they didn't have to play them! So what the heck was the raison d'etre to nerf them to uselessness in the first place? None what I can see.>

All they lost was mobility firepower if the upgrade was bought every time. Sure, from that perspective it hurts, but they're much, much cheaper (devilfish aside) with cheaper options and that allows you to fit more units into your force overall.

You're screaming because a single *upgrade* option was removed. Tau tanks didn't lose anything inherent to them or the army, they lost an *upgrade* item and gained everywhere else.

All they lost was mobility firepower if the upgrade was bought every time. Sure, from that perspective it hurts, but they're much, much cheaper (devilfish aside) with cheaper options and that allows you to fit more units into your force overall.

You're screaming because a single *upgrade* option was removed. Tau tanks didn't lose anything inherent to them or the army, they lost an *upgrade* item and gained everywhere else.

The thing is, when you got down to it, Tau were all about mobility firepower. Tau are, or at least were, a maneuver warfare army, and the multitracker enabled vehicles to work with the rest of the army in this respect. Tau mobility is far more important than the bloody markerlights. Those of us who enjoyed playing a mobile Tau force do not appreciate having our army hamstrung and being asked to run a markerlight assisted gunline, which seems to be the direction this codex is headed it. Tau are not some gimmicky version of IG, they are a fluid maneuver warfare force, and this codex fails to reflect that.

Phanixis wrote:

All they lost was mobility firepower if the upgrade was bought every time. Sure, from that perspective it hurts, but they're much, much cheaper (devilfish aside) with cheaper options and that allows you to fit more units into your force overall.

You're screaming because a single *upgrade* option was removed. Tau tanks didn't lose anything inherent to them or the army, they lost an *upgrade* item and gained everywhere else.

The thing is, when you got down to it, Tau were all about mobility firepower. Tau are, or at least were, a maneuver warfare army, and the multitracker enabled vehicles to work with the rest of the army in this respect. Tau mobility is far more important than the bloody markerlights. Those of us who enjoyed playing a mobile Tau force do not appreciate having our army hamstrung and being asked to run a markerlight assisted gunline, which seems to be the direction this codex is headed it. Tau are not some gimmicky version of IG, they are a fluid maneuver warfare force, and this codex fails to reflect that.

I'd dispute much of this. When I fielded, or my opponents fielded, Tau tanks, the didn't move much more than IG tanks most of the time, except to get skimmer movement defensive bonuses which generally didn't require them to do much movement at all. Don't need to move a whole lot when you've got a 72" gun and are up on a skimmer base with LoS to most anything or are just a missile-caddy. Devilfish are the exception, and are notably overcosted, but then aren't supposed to be major gunboats in and of themselves anyway, it just happened to be the most viable way to use them the last couple years. I'm not saying nobody ever used the ability to move and shoot 12", but it wasn't integral to the playstyle of the army except on gunboat Devilfish.

While yes, Tau are all about manuever warfare, they also aren't Eldar, and I think overall the actual gunboats got better. Besides, "maneuver" warfare realistically has a lot more to do with the strategic and operational levels of warfare than the zoomed-in ultra microcosm of tactical battles that 40k represents. Overall, unless you just *really* loved Warfish, I think they're better off than they were.

I'd certainly prefer Hammerheads to Leman Russ tanks in most matchups, especially on a cost-efficiency basis.

I'm loving the new book! Much better than the last one, the fact I can now take 3 teams of 5 pathfinders for near enough the same price as 8 old ones because of the compulsory devil fish is just incredible! It's improved my army ten fold! And screw the broadsides with sky fire I'm taking a skyray and putting 2 seeker missiles on each of my hammer heads to to give me a total of 10 strength 8 bs5 ignoring cover missiles take your evade save against that mr flyer

Plus who doesn't love taking shadowsun with a squad of suits and infiltrating them

Over all I'm loving the book and am itching to have more games with it!! New rules, new models, new play styles, new lists this book is a win win!

So which do people think is better for Pathfinders, ion or rail rifles? I'm leaning towards rail myself...ion has good points, being essentially a handheld autocannon, but having rapid fire AP1 seems too good to pass up, even minus that one point of strength. In fact, taking rail weapons makes me want to give Darkstrider a go. I had a game vs Space Wolves recently and AP1 Instant Death would be very handy when four HQ choices laden with wargear are coming at you.

Anyway, I was thinking of taking two Pathfinder squads each with 10 models, three rail rifles and two drones, either marker or shield. Maybe a shas'ui with blacksun filter as well. Sound good to anyone?

 Vaktathi wrote:

Backfire wrote:
Sky Rays suck against non-Air threats, even more than before

They're an anti-air platform that's very good at its role and provide missiles for markerlights, they're rather good for what they do.

They're terrible. Only reason to take them is Skyfire, and there are better, more survivable, more flexible Skyfire units in the book. Markerlights no longer can shoot other tanks' Seeker missiles btw.

and it doesn't matter how "cheap" Hammerheads are, since their abilities suck compared to what they were in the old book

What, just because they can't move 12 and fire at full ballistic skill? That was always an upgrade item, and they got way cheaper.

Bad changes exist, but this is just a case of "the sky is falling". Paying the price of a barebones Hellhound to get an AV13 skimmer with BS4 and an S10 Ap1 72" gun that can also fire an S6 AP4 large blats is a bargain relative to any possible equivalent. For their cost, there is no better battle tank, and they have far more upgrade options than others.

Under the old book, "basic" configuration of Hammerhead was for me 170 points. With the new book, roughly equivalent would be Railhead+pod+submunition = 145 points. So I save 25 points, and can't move and shoot, can't split fire, has less shots from the secondary weapons? How exactly new 'head is better for the points? Because there is no way it's not.

And really, the argument "but it's cheaper!" is pointless. Hammerhead is not limited by points cost, it's limited by FOC slots. You can't take more Hammerheads to compensate for its crappier abilities, nor can you use the points for some other vehicle to compensate because Railhead is only one of its kind in the army.

All they're missing is an upgrade item to move 12" and shoot at full BS and a wargear item that was Errata'd twice (and no longer bore any resemblance to its 4E incarnation) is no longer stupidly powerful for a ridiculously low-auto-take cost. Nothing about the tanks themselves or inherent to the fundamental nature of the army was changed. People just perceived them as such because they were such cheap auto-take items.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. None whatsover.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Vaktathi wrote:

I'd certainly prefer Hammerheads to Leman Russ tanks in most matchups, especially on a cost-efficiency basis.

That might be the case with LRBT, which was nerfed by 6th edition Ornance change. But if you look at for example Vanquisher, it's actually better tank killer than HH.

Lots of people who don't play Tau have told me that Hammerhead is still awesome. By contrast, people who do play Tau have generally agreed it's not. Some people might jump to conclusions here.

But proof of the pudding is in the eating. Almost any army can include Hammerhead, because of Ally rules. Wanna bet how often they're going to show up?

DanFST wrote:
am i loosing my mind? There are no costs for support systems?

This took me ages to find too...was frustrating to say the least. But yea, as an above poster said p.95.

Backfire wrote:
They're terrible. Only reason to take them is Skyfire, and there are better, more survivable, more flexible Skyfire units in the book. Markerlights no longer can shoot other tanks' Seeker missiles btw.

In what practical way are they worse off than the last book? They can't move 12" and fire an SMS at full BS? That's not their primary function and a minor nerf at best, getting Skyfire and reduction in cost and weapons upgrades costs is much more useful. I won't debate its usefulness relative to other platforms because I don't have my book in front of me, but relative to its previous incarnation, I don't see where its coming out behind really.

Under the old book, "basic" configuration of Hammerhead was for me 170 points. With the new book, roughly equivalent would be Railhead+pod+submunition = 145 points. So I save 25 points, and can't move and shoot, can't split fire, has less shots from the secondary weapons? How exactly new 'head is better for the points? Because there is no way it's not.

You can still move and shoot, just not to the same effect over the same distance. Which secondary weapons have fewer shots? I don't have my book on me at work right now, the SMS didn't change and in fact got better as it ignores all cover now IIRC and the drones should have more shots now due to carbines being assault 2 instead of assault 1, did they do something to the burst cannons like make them TL'd?

And really, the argument "but it's cheaper!" is pointless. Hammerhead is not limited by points cost, it's limited by FOC slots. You can't take more Hammerheads to compensate for its crappier abilities, nor can you use the points for some other vehicle to compensate because Railhead is only one of its kind in the army.

It hasn't lost any effectiveness as a tank hunter, merely mobility which was primarily for evading close in enemies and not generally engaging its target, and it allows you to put more points elsewhere that can also go tank hunting.

That said, FoC limitation has always been the bane of Hammerheads, it's why Broadsides were always more popular, because you could fit thrice as many guns into the same FoC slot.

You have absolutely no clue what you're talking about. None whatsover.

The 2500pts of Tau on my shelf and having played against Tau armies for 3 or 4 editions now would argue otherwise, just saying so without arguing a rational counter doesn't make it so.

That might be the case with LRBT, which was nerfed by 6th edition Ornance change. But if you look at for example Vanquisher, it's actually better tank killer than HH.

Not unless you buy it at least a lascannon and it ends up costing 36% more than a Hammerhead does, at which point one would hope it would be, because AV14 isn't worth that extra cost (especially without skimmer cover save bonuses). It also can't move over terrain, and doesn't have access to anything near the upgrade abilities that the Tau have. The hammerhead is a far more economical unit for what it does, especially if you want to engage infantry, 5pts to get an S6 AP4 Large blast beats the hell out of 20pts to get two Heavy Bolters , not to mention that the Hammerhead has burst cannons/drones/SMS available.

Lots of people who don't play Tau have told me that Hammerhead is still awesome. By contrast, people who do play Tau have generally agreed it's not. Some people might jump to conclusions here.

I play Tau, I think overall they ended up just fine.

But proof of the pudding is in the eating. Almost any army can include Hammerhead, because of Ally rules. Wanna bet how often they're going to show up?

A single hammerhead? relatively rarely unless already running lots of armor. If they are, I'd be willing to bet quite frequently.

Had 2 games today against my friends daemon army.

1850 Points for first game and 1500 points second game.

I ended up losing both games, first game went awful, luck was against me and my rolling was stupidly bad. Blood thirster charged my units one by one mopping them up.

Second game I deployed differently and went more aggressive, dice rolls were better and managed to take the game to turn 6. Though lost due to a warp storm double 6 roll and a new unit of blood letters (14 strong) spawning on turn 4. After playing daemons they are a very strong army, and whilst my friend is overall a better player I felt I did ok (not game 1).

Pathfinders were great, I ran 2 basic squads of 6 and provided enough markerlights, Horrors completely crippled my units, even when trying to focus them for a turn, 5+ invuln and re rolling 1's on invuln saves they are tough to take out.

Overall had fun and a good start to the book and my learning of Tau.

I'll put it simply:

EPIC SUCCESS!!!

My first and greatest love in GW is the Tau. I've had them since they arrived in 3rd and they've simply improved ever since.
It was about time they got a new Codex and GW has done them proud.
They are one of the few Armies they havn't wrecked in awhile out of the armies I enjoy.
All the units look great, the new equipment table for battlesuits is easier to apply and just the reduced cost of FWs and the inclusion of PGs in the price alone is brilliant.
Saved 72pts just on that!

The new models look fantastic and I can't wait to try out an XV104.

Once more people shall fear the word Tau and no longer can people say they are just a tag-along that has lost its way. No, the army and the race itself are back in full force.

LOVE IT!!

P.S. @Vaktathi: Glad to see someone knows what they are talking about *thumbs up*. So what if hammerheads are no longer count-as-Fast? Mine never used that upgrade anyway and they still dominated.

 Vaktathi wrote:

Backfire wrote:
They're terrible. Only reason to take them is Skyfire, and there are better, more survivable, more flexible Skyfire units in the book. Markerlights no longer can shoot other tanks' Seeker missiles btw.

In what practical way are they worse off than the last book? They can't move 12" and fire an SMS at full BS? That's not their primary function and a minor nerf at best, getting Skyfire and reduction in cost and weapons upgrades costs is much more useful. I won't debate its usefulness relative to other platforms because I don't have my book in front of me, but relative to its previous incarnation, I don't see where its coming out behind really.

Actually in 5th edition Sky Ray could move 12" and fire ALL weapons - Markerlights were defensive weapons, remember! This was downgraded to 6th edition so they could only shoot two weapons if moving 12". But in the present book, they can move only 6" and fire 1 weapon, rest Snap shots. Yes, this is pretty big nerf in the terms to gameplay. Also, Sky Ray could split fire, this was sometimes pretty important particularly with SMS. Mind you, it was still not particularly great tank, even if you ignore competition with Railguns and inability to hit air targets (!).

Of course it did gain ability to shoot Seekers without Markerlights. This is pretty big buff, but only applies when the tank doesn't move. Which means, no Jink save. Sure, it can shoot flyers, but they're not present in every list. Also, Flyers of course try to destroy Sky Ray first. Also, other weapons of the tank don't really have big range. You may have to move closer to the enemy anyway. IOW, it was a weak tank in the previous book, and arguably got worse, or at best, even, depending on how much value you place at its one-turn, one-shot Alpha strike. Seekers aren't that great against AV12+ vehicles, because of AP3, and even full Alpha strike isn't a guaranteed kill against AV12 flyer - and after that, the tank is relatively toothless. Once again, it's points cost is of minor importance as it eats a precious Heavy Support FOC slot.

This is one of the problems I have with the new book - HS slots seem just as critical as they were in the old book, and likely still will be filled with Railheads or Broadsides, because no other FOC slots contain units which can perform in same role anywhere as well, or at all.

You can still move and shoot, just not to the same effect over the same distance. Which secondary weapons have fewer shots? I don't have my book on me at work right now, the SMS didn't change and in fact got better as it ignores all cover now IIRC and the drones should have more shots now due to carbines being assault 2 instead of assault 1, did they do something to the burst cannons like make them TL'd?

Burst cannon is now one Twin-linked weapon. I'm sure this will be FAQed though, because in its current form it's pointless as SMS is better and has same cost.

Loss of Split fire is pretty important, actually. Because Hammerhead can't get secondary weapons which would hurt tanks, it means that often secondary armament is wasted.

It hasn't lost any effectiveness as a tank hunter, merely mobility which was primarily for evading close in enemies and not generally engaging its target, and it allows you to put more points elsewhere that can also go tank hunting.

No, mobility was often very important in tank hunting role because you might get a side armour shot or negate enemy cover from terrain, or run away from the enemy and still be able to shoot, or get over terrain pieces and still be able to shoot. 6" is generally insufficient getting over terrain, in fact even 12" often is. It was, and is, important to be able to shoot every turn, because you got on average 6 shots in a game if everything went really well, some of them would miss, some of them would fail to penetrate, for some opponent would make a save or they'd fail to do crippling damage. Only newbies thought that Hammerhead was 100% sure, point & click heavy armour killer.

The 2500pts of Tau on my shelf and having played against Tau armies for 3 or 4 editions now would argue otherwise, just saying so without arguing a rational counter doesn't make it so.

Then you will probably remember what was the most popular Tau build in 4th edition, in the edition old Codex was written to, and what was modus operandi of the Tau skimmers? True, that most Tau armies of last few years have been pretty static, even if they contained vehicles, but this was because of meta changes forced upon obsolete Codex, not representative of how the army was played during its glory days.

That might be the case with LRBT, which was nerfed by 6th edition Ordnance change. But if you look at for example Vanquisher, it's actually better tank killer than HH.

Not unless you buy it at least a lascannon and it ends up costing 36% more than a Hammerhead does, at which point one would hope it would be, because AV14 isn't worth that extra cost (especially without skimmer cover save bonuses).

And Vanquisher, unlike HH, can move & shoot all its weapons...

I play Tau, I think overall they ended up just fine.

When a Mech Tau list wins a tournament, give me a call. I probably won't hold my breath, even though I can do it for nearly a minute.

A single hammerhead? relatively rarely unless already running lots of armor. If they are, I'd be willing to bet quite frequently.

Why rarely? I thought it was peerless anti-tank unit? Surely any army would benefit from such an awesome vehicle?