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 Neorealist wrote:
There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.

Could you name some of that wargear?
Even the Veil of Darkness is FAQ'd to specifically mention it can be used to come out of Reserve.

 Neorealist wrote:
There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.

So you are recanting your opinion that it "specifically" states it works in Reserves? Or are you still clinging to that?

Admission of error would be a start, as you are now arguing something entirely different

Kangodo wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.

Could you name some of that wargear?
Even the Veil of Darkness is FAQ'd to specifically mention it can be used to come out of Reserve.

And why was the answer yes?

because wargear works in reserves.

sirlynchmob wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.

Could you name some of that wargear?
Even the Veil of Darkness is FAQ'd to specifically mention it can be used to come out of Reserve.

And why was the answer yes?

because wargear works in reserves.

Tachyon Arrow requires LOS. So do the Tesla Destructors on Night Scythes. Do they work in reserve? If so, tell me how. Step by step.

I think the underlying problem with arguing this at all is no model has permission to use any wargear, RAW. Can anyone point me to permission or rules for the use of wargear as a whole and not just in specific instances?

 azazel the cat wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

Kangodo wrote:

 Neorealist wrote:
There is plenty of wargear that functions in reserves just fine without explicit permission to do so. Furthermore there is some that would not function in it's intended purpose if it didn't work from reserves; such as wargear which allows a model to enter from reserves in a special way like outflanking or deepstriking.

Could you name some of that wargear?
Even the Veil of Darkness is FAQ'd to specifically mention it can be used to come out of Reserve.

And why was the answer yes?

because wargear works in reserves.

Tachyon Arrow requires LOS. So do the Tesla Destructors on Night Scythes. Do they work in reserve? If so, tell me how. Step by step.

RAW pg 10 movement, in your turn you can move any of your units, ALL of them if you wish.

RAW pg 12, who can shoot. if you can't shoot it will be explained thoroughly when it occurs. does the reserve rules state you can not shoot? Nope, ergo you can following the normal rules for shooting. RAW also forgets to ignore the rule for flyers where they have to move 18" or become wrecked. so turn 1 auto wrecks fliers in reserves. Hey thats RAW for ya, no more weird than the RAW argument that drop pods who fail a dangerous terrain test when they arrive from reserves lose 3 hull points. The bay area event even put that in their faq.

the rules for reserves are a special rule for the mission. Do the reserve rules modify any of the basic rules of moving, shooting, or assaulting? No, except for the one part they do for arriving from reserves.

Trying to say no wargear can work because the models are not in play, is just nonsense. That is never stated nor implied from the reserve rule nor any rule. If a unit can deep strike, it begins the game in reserve. so they are, in the game, in reserve. If you want to make that claim you need to explain why some wargear is allowed while others are not allowed, while in reserve. pg # & rule will suffice. If any wargear can work in reserve than all wargear can work in reserve.

so if you want to house rule all wargear, have at it. I'll just stick with the houserule that models in reserve ignore all movement restrictions and can not shoot onto the battle field until they arrive.

I assure you, sirlynchmob you'll figure it out if you just humour me and fulfill my request:


Please list all the steps required in order to fire a Tesla Destructor or Tachyon Arrow from reserve.


EDIT: And no wargear can work in Reserve. Those piece of wargear that are the exceptions to this rule, have been explicity stated to do so in their own rules or FAQs. So you may ask for a page citation of where to find this rule, and I will answer you this: it's located on the same page that says I cannot simply pick up your models and throw them out the window, declaring them casualties.

So in local, state or federal statute dealing with destruction of private property?

 azazel the cat wrote:
I assure you, sirlynchmob you'll figure it out if you just humour me and fulfill my request:


Please list all the steps required in order to fire a Tesla Destructor or Tachyon Arrow from reserve.


EDIT: And no wargear can work in Reserve. Those piece of wargear that are the exceptions to this rule, have been explicity stated to do so in their own rules or FAQs. So you may ask for a page citation of where to find this rule, and I will answer you this: it's located on the same page that says I cannot simply pick up your models and throw them out the window, declaring them casualties.

I've already stated why they can shoot. Check for range and LOS, shoot em up.

pg 12, during the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy.
pg 12, who can shoot. if you can't shoot it will be EXPLAINED THOROUGHLY when it occurs.
pg 13, which models can fire? ANY model that is found to be in range of at least one visible enemy model.

those piece of wargear are not the exception, they are proof that wargear works in reserves and is clarified that they do. Not all FAQ's change rules, those just answered the basic question and set precedence for wargear to work from reserves.




Automatically Appended Next Post:
does the chronometer meet its requirements to be used as permitted? Yep:

1) Can Imotekh use his ability while he is in reserves? (or elsewhere, but that is not relevant to this discussion). Answer - Yes, he just has to have been included in your army list
2) Can the Chrono-tek be used to re-roll The night fighting ability roll? Answer - Yes, as long as the Cryptek is in the same unit as Imotekh.
3) Is the Cryptek in the same unit as imotekh while they are in reserves together? Answer - Presumably, Yes

sirlynchmob wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:
I assure you, sirlynchmob you'll figure it out if you just humour me and fulfill my request:


Please list all the steps required in order to fire a Tesla Destructor or Tachyon Arrow from reserve.


EDIT: And no wargear can work in Reserve. Those piece of wargear that are the exceptions to this rule, have been explicity stated to do so in their own rules or FAQs. So you may ask for a page citation of where to find this rule, and I will answer you this: it's located on the same page that says I cannot simply pick up your models and throw them out the window, declaring them casualties.

I've already stated why they can shoot. Check for range and LOS, shoot em up.

pg 12, during the shooting phase, units armed with ranged weapons can fire at the enemy.
pg 12, who can shoot. if you can't shoot it will be EXPLAINED THOROUGHLY when it occurs.
pg 13, which models can fire? ANY model that is found to be in range of at least one visible enemy model.

those piece of wargear are not the exception, they are proof that wargear works in reserves and is clarified that they do. Not all FAQ's change rules, those just answered the basic question and set precedence for wargear to work from reserves.

Wow. You still haven't figured it out. Where are you checking range and drawing LOS from, exactly?

where the model is located, duh!

sirlynchmob wrote:where the model is located, duh!

Shall I take that as you withdrawing from your position that all wargear can be used while in reserve?

 azazel the cat wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:where the model is located, duh!

Shall I take that as you withdrawing from your position that all wargear can be used while in reserve?

Nope, shall I take it you have no leg to stand on for restricting things that are given permission to be used? Yep, I think so. come back when you have some rules and not just some red herrings.

I have to say, this is one of the best threads I've read on this site

Sir Lynchy, if you start measuring ranges from models that are off the table, then they have to have a consistent position so that they do not move more than they should, shoot their proper range, etc. This would mean that they have to have an actual position in reserves, which would necessitate a "reserve board" ringing the normal. Is this what you're proposing? And if so, where does this "reserve board" come from in the rules?

 Elric Greywolf wrote:
I have to say, this is one of the best threads I've read on this site

Sir Lynchy, if you start measuring ranges from models that are off the table, then they have to have a consistent position so that they do not move more than they should, shoot their proper range, etc. This would mean that they have to have an actual position in reserves, which would necessitate a "reserve board" ringing the normal. Is this what you're proposing? And if so, where does this "reserve board" come from in the rules?

thank you, I aim to entertain

The point is, when wargear says it can be used, you can use them. You are never given permission to use wargear in the rules, except by the wargear themselves, and under what conditions they can be used. And the chronometer meets its conditions to be used.

But strictly RAW, reserves is horribly undefined. It's a special rule that confer extra abilities, restrictions or effects onto your game. Reserves just states, who can start in reserves, and how to come out of reserves. As being in reserves does nothing to change the turn order, or override any other restrictions to models/units, all other rules are still applicable. nothing else changes, so fliers auto wreck turn 1 for not moving 18". House rule to your liking

Kangodo wrote: Could you name some of that wargear?
Even the Veil of Darkness is FAQ'd to specifically mention it can be used to come out of Reserve.

Yep. First one that comes to mind is the space wolves 'Saga of the Hunter' which confers outflank and stealth upon it's wielder. The war gears' flavour text itself suggests that a character with it should be held in reserves, a silly statement to make if it did not function there.

Also the 'Deepstrike' ability inherent in (almost) all terminator armor would seem pretty redundant if you could not apply the effect while the model was in reserves as opposed to just on the table. (the most recent example i've found is in the dark angels armoury)

A demonic steed of slaanesh notes no specific ability to work within reserves, and yet confers outflank as well.

In truth it was harder finding wargear that 'does' indicate it effects reserves in some way, as very few items actually list such.

There were however quite a few (teleport homing beacons and the like) that indicate they only work when on the battlefield or table. Why do you think that would be if that was taken as a given already somewhere else in the rules?

Anyone else think its arguments like these that make GW employees crazy and dyspeptic?

sirlynchmob wrote:
so if you want to house rule all wargear, have at it. I'll just stick with the houserule that models in reserve ignore all movement restrictions and can not shoot onto the battle field until they arrive.

Uhm.. So you claim that all wargear can be used in Reserve except ranged weapons?
Can you quote me the rules that says you cannot use those ranged weapons?

And don't bring that "range and LOS" nonsense, because I can easily set them somewhere where both range and LoS aren't an issue.

sirlynchmob wrote:
where the model is located, duh!

Which is 2 inches outside the table, because our table is big enough to have six plates Realm of Battle on it and leaves enough room to place our reserves on the side.

If you are claiming that all Wargear can be used while in reserve: Fine!
But at least be consistent and let people also shoot with their reserves that they've "stored" behind your army.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Anyone else think its arguments like these that make GW employees crazy and dyspeptic?

We wouldn't have these discussions if those employees learned how the write a rulebook or if they'd use some of those 50 euros I pay for a bit of plastic to hire rule-writers.

It's quite sad and a bit pathetic that a 26-year old game has so many errors.
The other game I play is only 20 years old and their rules are almost perfect, with free rulebooks and due to that updates and FAQ's the moment people encounter problems.

Azazel, elric, Kangodo. I see you want rules on the use of wargear in reserves. Could you be so kind as to point out the rules governing wargear? I mean the general rules governing their use as a whole and not rules governing Specific instances. I've looked several times and can't seem to find them. As this is a permissive rule set they have to be there to use the wargear. If we use the assumption that they are usable because they are on the model then we have to go by the restrictions placed on them from somewhere. If the wargear does not have a restriction we have to look at what else could restrict it. The reserves rules do not restrict them. Where are the rules you are using to restrict the use?

Kangodo wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
so if you want to house rule all wargear, have at it. I'll just stick with the houserule that models in reserve ignore all movement restrictions and can not shoot onto the battle field until they arrive.

Uhm.. So you claim that all wargear can be used in Reserve except ranged weapons?
Can you quote me the rules that says you cannot use those ranged weapons?

And don't bring that "range and LOS" nonsense, because I can easily set them somewhere where both range and LoS aren't an issue.

It's quite sad and a bit pathetic that a 26-year old game has so many errors.
The other game I play is only 20 years old and their rules are almost perfect, with free rulebooks and due to that updates and FAQ's the moment people encounter problems.

RAW you still follow the turn order and have permission to move, shoot, assault and use any wargear that's applicable while in reserves. see my previous posts in this thread.

It wouldn't really be considered 2" outside the table though, you models would be just outside the table touching your edge as that's where they come on at. (not RAW, just my opinion) We'd have to discuss it before the game.

I agree, you'd think by now they'd have a handle on the rules and be a lot better at writing them, so the same arguments from older editions don't carry over to the new edition.

 Gravmyr wrote:
Azazel, elric, Kangodo. I see you want rules on the use of wargear in reserves. Could you be so kind as to point out the rules governing wargear? I mean the general rules governing their use as a whole and not rules governing Specific instances. I've looked several times and can't seem to find them. As this is a permissive rule set they have to be there to use the wargear. If we use the assumption that they are usable because they are on the model then we have to go by the restrictions placed on them from somewhere. If the wargear does not have a restriction we have to look at what else could restrict it. The reserves rules do not restrict them. Where are the rules you are using to restrict the use?

The dozen implications that models need to be deployed before they can do anything?
It's probably in the same section that says only units picked in your FOC can do stuff

OK so no there are no rules governing wargear use. You are basing that no model in reserves can do anything due to supposition and assumption. As most FAQ'd wargear that has come forth to be questioned, if not all, has been deemed usable in reserves what are you basing this belief off of? There are a dozen places deployed units cannot do anything? Can you post pages for me?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Also your army is made up of the models you choose per the section at 108 - 117. All the rules speak about your army not models you own. They actually have defined who is in your army and that army is what you are playing with. They have not defined what rules are not in use outside of deployed units, ie reserved units.

Kangodo wrote:
Which is 2 inches outside the table, because our table is big enough to have six plates Realm of Battle on it and leaves enough room to place our reserves on the side.

So then can your models thus be shot at as well, while they are in reserves?

Gravmyr wrote:Azazel, elric, Kangodo. I see you want rules on the use of wargear in reserves.

Don't you lump me in with them! Wargear can only be used in reserves if it's explicitly stated.

Rumbleguts wrote:
Anyone else think its arguments like these that make GW employees crazy and dyspeptic?

We wouldn't have these discussions if those employees learned how the write a rulebook or if they'd use some of those 50 euros I pay for a bit of plastic to hire rule-writers.

It's quite sad and a bit pathetic that a 26-year old game has so many errors.
The other game I play is only 20 years old and their rules are almost perfect, with free rulebooks and due to that updates and FAQ's the moment people encounter problems.

 azazel the cat wrote:
So then can your models thus be shot at as well, while they are in reserves?

According to them it is

Don't you lump me in with them! Wargear can only be used in reserves if it's explicitly stated.

Which is exactly my opinion if you read my posts.
The "ooh, so I can also shoot you from reserve" was to point out of ridiculous it is to use wargear while being in Reserve.
I love how some people claim you can use wargear and then fail to point out why shooting should be excluded from their conclusion.
Most logical outcome: Their conclusion is wrong.

 azazel the cat wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Which is 2 inches outside the table, because our table is big enough to have six plates Realm of Battle on it and leaves enough room to place our reserves on the side.

So then can your models thus be shot at as well, while they are in reserves?

Gravmyr wrote:Azazel, elric, Kangodo. I see you want rules on the use of wargear in reserves.

Don't you lump me in with them! Wargear can only be used in reserves if it's explicitly stated.

so by your logic, you can't use wargear during night fighting either because it is not explicitly stated you can?
so then I also guess you can't use wargear during the moving phase, the shooting phase, or the assault phase because it is not explicitly stated you can?

sirlynchmob wrote:

 azazel the cat wrote:

Kangodo wrote:
Which is 2 inches outside the table, because our table is big enough to have six plates Realm of Battle on it and leaves enough room to place our reserves on the side.

So then can your models thus be shot at as well, while they are in reserves?

Gravmyr wrote:Azazel, elric, Kangodo. I see you want rules on the use of wargear in reserves.

Don't you lump me in with them! Wargear can only be used in reserves if it's explicitly stated.

so by your logic, you can't use wargear during night fighting either because it is not explicitly stated you can?
so then I also guess you can't use wargear during the moving phase, the shooting phase, or the assault phase because it is not explicitly stated you can?

Your response is the equivalent of asking "what's a truck?" when asked who stole one.

There is no point in discussing every line in the BRB as though it only exists in a vacuum; and if you are going to intentionally play dumb for the purpose of trolling then I have no desire to engage in debate with you.

Final thoughts on the matter - this thread is going downhill quickly and I'd be surprised if it doesn't end up locked.

The text for the Chrono states you only need to be in the unit for it's effect to go off. I can't see any other argument needed other than this. While I hate to say it - Sirlynchmob has a slight point in that respect. There is no restriction on using that wargear and it fulfills all of the requirements to use it in such a way. There are cases such as Veil of Darkness where this was FAQ'd to permit it to be used from Reserves - this could have been due to it's interaction with Deep Strike to begin with and nothing to due with using Wargear in reserves.

He did however ruin the thread and sour the entire argument by bringing in the ideas of being able to shoot, etc from reserve. I think it is pretty clear to most that you can't shoot a Tachyon Arrow from reserves as you never meet all of the requirements to use the item - nowhere to measure from and no LoS to draw. Chronometron however does meet all of it's requirements just by being in the unit.

I'd say to just roll off on this issue. If you take this issue out of a vacuum - how often will this even happen? What sort of abuse can even come from this? You are using a 55 pt unit to re-roll one die per phase in a turn. How many die can something roll when in reserves anyways? In a Necron army how many options do you have as far as taking action and rolling dice from reserve? It's own reserve roll die? Imhotek's ability to night fight? A roll for a lightning strike from Imhotek?

I can't see any of the situations where it can be used as game breaking enough for anybody to get this deep into a discussion on it. From a standpoint of playing a functional game - it wouldn't really hurt to roll off or just give it to the Necron player as the Chronometron is a particularly odd piece of Wargear that seems to work outside of many normal rules.

In either case it is clear that both sides have made a point and there is nothing else to engage in other than insults and a constant "PAGE AND PARAGRAPH BRO PLZ RIGHT NOW" talk that makes this forum look populated by troglodytes.

Removed: Completely misread the arguement I was trying to refute.