NorseSig wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

I think if we made the terminators like the wolf guard terminators in codex space wolves, then yes that would be a huge improvement, and probably fix the problem for the most part. I would say then 33pts/model would be appropriate. Maybe they still wouldn't be the best unit but they could help mitigate some of their shortcomings by being more varied in their options. Being able to have a few TH+SS Terminators to stand at the front of the unit would help quite a bit. I must admit that i still think terminator armor should grant +1 Toughness and bikes and wolf mounts shouldnt grant +1 Toughness. But that is just me. I also happen to think a lot of the space marines weapons and options are overpriced for the most part, and that certain units need some change in some of their options. Like tacticals imo should be able to have a choice of two heavy weapons or two special weapons instead of just a special and a heavy.

Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW.

But the thing is, it's justified by the fluff. The bonus to those attributes represents the combined strength and fury of the wolf and rider. On bikes, the +1 toughness represents the additional armor being provides by all the metal of the bike, presumably. So why is the durability and strength of a suit of holy terminator armor not represented in game terms?

And yeah, SW termis are pretty awesome and versatile (although, keep in mind we pay more for certain things; 48 points for TH/SS instead of 45, 48 Points for 2WC, instead of 40 for 2LC, although wolf claws are S +1). But in fairness, the Rout does a lot of things differently than other Chapters, maybe it's okay that our terminators are different. There are a lot of things other Chapters get that we don't. I think the main problem w/ terminators isn't the basic design of the squad (there's room for improvement, but the basic idea of shooty termis vs assault termis seems sound), it's that issue of having the same strength, toughness, and wounds as an unblooded neophyte scout who has yet to earn his power armor, let alone the sacred Crux Terminatus.

I realize it is +1 to all those things which is why I think it is too much myself. I realize why it increases toughness, but it doesn't make sense still imo. Improving armor save by one maybe (capped at 2+). I say that being a guy who runs a lot of bikes in his iron hands list. I think SW termies are pretty close to what the terminator entry should be. Maybe standard terminators might allow more special weapons since they are clearly more shooting focused. I do know terminators in general need some changes to be a decent option or for TDA to be a viable option for more than the odd hq (namely the librarian so i can give him a SS). Chosing between bikes or tda or in case of SW thunder wolves should be a more difficult choice imo. I must say i like bikes and thunder wolves as is but maybe they should be nerfed a bit and tda buffed a bit. I just dont know. I do know TDA for a hq choice shouldn't cost more than 25pts imo.

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

AnFéasógMór wrote:

 NorseSig wrote:

 AnomanderRake wrote:
32-33ppm, start with a power sword, 4+ Inv standard, two upgrade guns per five models. 90% of the problems gone.

Before people start grumbling about not being able to mix guns and melee upgrades I don't want to have to think up another unique toy to hand the Deathwing to compensate for other people getting that unique toy of theirs.

I think if we made the terminators like the wolf guard terminators in codex space wolves, then yes that would be a huge improvement, and probably fix the problem for the most part. I would say then 33pts/model would be appropriate. Maybe they still wouldn't be the best unit but they could help mitigate some of their shortcomings by being more varied in their options. Being able to have a few TH+SS Terminators to stand at the front of the unit would help quite a bit. I must admit that i still think terminator armor should grant +1 Toughness and bikes and wolf mounts shouldnt grant +1 Toughness. But that is just me. I also happen to think a lot of the space marines weapons and options are overpriced for the most part, and that certain units need some change in some of their options. Like tacticals imo should be able to have a choice of two heavy weapons or two special weapons instead of just a special and a heavy.

Oh, don't you dare come after my Thunderwolves. They're perfect, just the way they are. And that's +1 Toughness, Strength, Wounds, and Attacks, BTW.

But the thing is, it's justified by the fluff. The bonus to those attributes represents the combined strength and fury of the wolf and rider. On bikes, the +1 toughness represents the additional armor being provides by all the metal of the bike, presumably. So why is the durability and strength of a suit of holy terminator armor not represented in game terms?

And yeah, SW termis are pretty awesome and versatile (although, keep in mind we pay more for certain things; 48 points for TH/SS instead of 45, 48 Points for 2WC, instead of 40 for 2LC, although wolf claws are S +1). But in fairness, the Rout does a lot of things differently than other Chapters, maybe it's okay that our terminators are different. There are a lot of things other Chapters get that we don't. I think the main problem w/ terminators isn't the basic design of the squad (there's room for improvement, but the basic idea of shooty termis vs assault termis seems sound), it's that issue of having the same strength, toughness, and wounds as an unblooded neophyte scout who has yet to earn his power armor, let alone the sacred Crux Terminatus.

I realize it is +1 to all those things which is why I think it is too much myself. I realize why it increases toughness, but it doesn't make sense still imo. Improving armor save by one maybe (capped at 2+). I say that being a guy who runs a lot of bikes in his iron hands list. I think SW termies are pretty close to what the terminator entry should be. Maybe standard terminators might allow more special weapons since they are clearly more shooting focused. I do know terminators in general need some changes to be a decent option or for TDA to be a viable option for more than the odd hq (namely the librarian so i can give him a SS). Chosing between bikes or tda or in case of SW thunder wolves should be a more difficult choice imo. I must say i like bikes and thunder wolves as is but maybe they should be nerfed a bit and tda buffed a bit. I just dont know. I do know TDA for a hq choice shouldn't cost more than 25pts imo.

Honestly, for space wolves, the main choice between biikes and TWC is what kind of army you're running. If you run big gun heavy (like Ironwolves), go bikes. I run Deathwolves, who are assault heavy, so TWC are the obvious choice (although I might make an Ironwolves list one day). Keep in mind, they don't have anywhere near the ranged weapon choices of bikes. It's bolt pistol, boltgun, or plasma pistol, that's all. Space Wolf Terminators serve a useful, but kinda weird role. You take them when you want a good assault squad, and it would cost as much or more to not have terminators as it does to have them. Plus, if you run a CotGW detachment, they get WS5, at the minor expense of having to issue and accept challenges (something an assault SW list is gonna wanna do anyway, especially if you run a lot of Maelstrom, like I do).