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Hellguns are the best man-portable lasweapons the Imperium produces for the battlefield role. This is why the elite Stormtrooper Regiment (the best of the absolute fething best the IG can field) carry them. Sure, a lascannon can melt a tank, but it only packs, what, 5 shots in a powercell the size and weight of a car battery?

While other patterns of the standard lasgun fielded by the IG certainly exist (thousands of them, as a matter of fact) they all pretty much come down to the fact that they all function pretty much the same. Whether it's a semi-auto, fully-auto, burst-fire, variable power settings, twin-linked, combi-weapon, battle-rifle or carbine... most lasguns fail against the Xeno horrors that humanity commonly faces, even moreso against the kinds of foes Space Marines are called in to handle.

The hellpistol, being based on the same technology as the hellgun, only suffers compared to the hellgun in that it has shorter range and no burst fire. It's still a reliable weapon against heavily-armored (including Power Armored) opponents with excellent stopping power against infantry of all kinds and light vehicles. Both weapons bring hundreds of shots to the battlefield, via a backpack powercell, that means the Stormtrooper can stay in a protracted engagement for extended periods of time before needing to resupply his ammuntion load-out.

A .22 caliber is great for point-blank shots against unarmored human targets. It's fething useless against an Ork at any range. Even more useless against a Tyranid (unless you were keeping the weapon for use on yourself).

A six-foot stick is a six-foot stick. Even if you're eight feet tall, you're extending your reach by somewhere between three and five feet. That's not bad for anyone, not to mention the defensive effects a pole-weapon, like a spear, offers in melee combat.

Yeah, I always wondered why Marines use bolters. Give them Hellguns/Hotshots any day, not only that would make them completely independent from supply, it would make them more effective against Chaos Marines (aren't these things AP3?). Just as well, replace heavy bolters and assault cannons with multilasers, keep lascannon, and now you have 3 weapons effective against anything that run on common unending ammunition, are cheap, rugged, and well known tech...

Inquisitor Jex wrote:Botlers were the weapon of the Astartes legion back in the day, and being the Imperium and all, it is now.
Yes humans fought in it as well, but only after a while when the Emperor saw that his Astartes legion were starting to get lower in numbers as the crusade went on and even then they had autoguns and lasguns (what with manufacturing being less copy/paste and only super-religious rather than ultra-religious as in 40k)

Remember what the line "In the best armour I shall clad them, with the mightiest of weapon I shall arm them (or something similar)" They were made to be the best of the best, so I figure that bolters were the most devastating rifle-type weapon available at the time, and that lasguns, while being a logistical dream, didn't had the punch and effect a bolter has.

That is not really true. If you check HH supplement by FW, Legiones Astartes of old had access to a lot more guns than bolters, including energy weapons. Bolters were just (IIRC) cheap stop-gap intended for Heresy duration only...

The benefit of the bolter is that it can fire a variety of multi-purpose rounds that target specific kinds of foes or deal with specific threats. Energy weapons lack this customization... so the first time you run into some weird Xeno that eats energy and your las weapons are useless, you're fethed.

 Psienesis wrote:
The benefit of the bolter is that it can fire a variety of multi-purpose rounds that target specific kinds of foes or deal with specific threats. Energy weapons lack this customization... so the first time you run into some weird Xeno that eats energy and your las weapons are useless, you're fethed.

Which is capability no one ever uses but Deathwatch. In fact, doesn't Deathwatch fluff outright said that Sternguard special ammo was pretty much stolen from their designs and they were most displeased about this leak?

Also, aliens eating superconcentrated light are much less common than ones using forcefields to simply deflect bolter rounds away, or too numerous for Marines to not run out of ammo. Hell, bolters are virtually useless against hardier enemies Marines often face, like CSM or Tau Battlesuits. Here, the AP3 of heavier lasguns would really shine.

The Deathwatch didn't invent the idea of using different types of ammo in bolters. They invented a couple types of ammo for specialized missions.

Also, aliens eating superconcentrated light are much less common than ones using forcefields to simply deflect bolter rounds away, or too numerous for Marines to not run out of ammo. Hell, bolters are virtually useless against hardier enemies Marines often face, like CSM or Tau Battlesuits. Here, the AP3 of heavier lasguns would really shine.

The table-top rules don't really support the fluff, which shows Marines of all stripes being quite handily killed by bolter fire.

And given that Scouts have existed for far longer than the Deathwatch, and make use of specialized bolters, as well as specialized rounds for those bolters, I don't think the Deathwatch can lay a claim on that technology.

Besides, the DW doesn't really "invent" anything. They rely on the AdMech to produce their armor and weapons for them, or at least train their Tech-Marines in the art of doing so, and, in turn, provide the AdMech with captured Xenos, xeno wargear, and other data. More likely that the AdMech played a significant role in developing alternative payloads for the boltgun.

 Psienesis wrote:
The table-top rules don't really support the fluff, which shows Marines of all stripes being quite handily killed by bolter fire.

Well the tabletop rules would imply that marines in cover are no more hardy than marines in the open regarding bolter fire. Coming back into the game after such a long, long absence and this particular fact annoys me no end.

Well, a bolt-round is armor-piercing, so depending on the quality of the cover, it might really not matter so much. A bolt-round is honeybadger about your light tree cover, and honeybadger does not give a gak. However, if they're behind some broken ferrocrete wall, yes, that's dumb, but, again, the TT rules are abstractions of a combat scenario, so such casualties might be the poor bastards who pop their heads over the wall to take a peek, or who happen to be a foot and a half taller than the five foot high wall, even while crouching.

 Psienesis wrote:
Well, a bolt-round is armor-piercing, so depending on the quality of the cover, it might really not matter so much. A bolt-round is honeybadger about your light tree cover, and honeybadger does not give a gak.

Sure, except that if you're in ork the exact same cover is now magically effective at reducing casualties. And while a bolter gets to ignore the light tree, apparently a plasma gun or lascannon does not. It's absurd that power armour can't save you but long grass might, or that being a marine in a bunker, firing out of a slit does nothing to increase your survival against the chaos marine in the open. That is just crazy.

However, if they're behind some broken ferrocrete wall, yes, that's dumb, but, again, the TT rules are abstractions of a combat scenario, so such casualties might be the poor bastards who pop their heads over the wall to take a peek, or who happen to be a foot and a half taller than the five foot high wall, even while crouching.

There's abstraction and then there's simplification. The current 40K cover system is a simplification (though they still inexplicably have a BS rating) that ignores cover sometimes for ease of play. It's not an abstraction- that would be -1 to hit because 'factors' that interfere with an otherwise perfect shot. The abstraction is those 'factors' we don't go into and just abstract to a specific value.

But back on topic, Ibris has the best idea I think. Maybe not give them all las weapons by default but certainly the Adeptus Astartes can have some variation? Fighting orks? Bolter it is- need high strength and low AP. Fighting Chaos marines? Clearly the hellgun is a better option. The loss in wounds will be more than made up for by the AP. And the lack of reliance on supply is a huge thing. Marines are first response, rapid strike forces. They are by definition out in front, ahead of the main forces. They're fully self sufficient in every way and I see no reason not to translate this to their inserted forces. I always loved the idea of marines taking out key installations (planetary defence weapons or spaceports) and holding them until the Imperial Guard arrive. But that could be days, weeks or months and it's unlikely your drop pod landed inside the space port or bunker complex that controls the defence lasers. Having a nigh unlimited ammo supply would be extremely useful.

I agree cover could use a rework. Maybe attach negative modifiers along with the actual cover save.

Well they still have Ballistic Skill- a number which gives you another number. Now as a basis for a hit roll- an otherwise perfect shot that works fine. Since all modifiers are now gone it's a relic- Marines shouldn't have BS 4, they should have BS 3+.

I remember seeing a very cool picture on the net where a Techmarine has this type of heavy bolter and a las gun combined (but not exactly a lascannon) on one of his servo arms. I'll try to dig up the picture.