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rigeld2 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Actually no, just being named does not make you 'unique' but a rule that you find in the profile section of each unit.

Page 110 disagrees with you. All special characters are unique.

But he also needs to be a character, which he is not defined as one in the codex. Name doesn't mean anything if he isn't identified as a character. You're confusing the filler text giving the general description of a unique/special character is with a rule that specifically says a name equals a character. Go look at the profile for everything actual character they mentioned. It says they are characters in their profiles. Read the rest of Page 63, right next to "Precision shots" it says characters have their own profile, but not always a separate entry. Due to the lack of profile, he has not been identified as a character. To further argue that, look at the army list entry for Pask. It specifically mentions that he is taken as an upgrade, and he has *virtually* the same effects as Longstrike. To continue my arguement, we go look at Brother Segeant Chronus. He has a profile, in this profile it says what? It says he is unique. He also has a line in the summary section, neither Pask or Longstrike has that. In addition, and this is my final argument, codex rules over ride BRB rules, and going by what the dex says, he is just an upgrade and nothing more.

Profiles clearly list if a model is unique with (Unique) flag.

As I noted earlier you are trying to apply the rule backwards based on an incorrect interpretation. I don't fault people for having it, the interpretation is based on logic and narrative. If this was any other media then a table-top miniature game I wouldn't even argue. Sadly we are dealing with war-hammer, where rules are written by green skins who have a clearly unusual view on what roll narrative plays within those rules.

What you are referencing on page 110 is clearly how you deal with the (unique) flag, just like there is sections telling you how to deal with the (character) flag. You will come across this flag when making your army, which is why you find the explanation for the rule in the section out lining rules you will need to know when making your army. Page 110 outlines what additional limitation are on units with the (unique) flag, with a little bit of a narrative example as to when you will encounter them thrown on top. Even the existence of this narrative makes sense as this is a rule book, it does not have the army layout listings found in codex, and it provides examples of when this rule may be encountered.

A one time, 'named,' upgrade does not make a vehicle (unique).

 Firehead158 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

JinxDragon wrote:
Actually no, just being named does not make you 'unique' but a rule that you find in the profile section of each unit.

Page 110 disagrees with you. All special characters are unique.

But he also needs to be a character, which he is not defined as one in the codex. Name doesn't mean anything if he isn't identified as a character. You're confusing the filler text giving the general description of a unique/special character is with a rule that specifically says a name equals a character. Go look at the profile for everything actual character they mentioned. It says they are characters in their profiles. Read the rest of Page 63, right next to "Precision shots" it says characters have their own profile, but not always a separate entry. Due to the lack of profile, he has not been identified as a character. To further argue that, look at the army list entry for Pask. It specifically mentions that he is taken as an upgrade, and he has *virtually* the same effects as Longstrike. To continue my arguement, we go look at Brother Segeant Chronus. He has a profile, in this profile it says what? It says he is unique. He also has a line in the summary section, neither Pask or Longstrike has that. In addition, and this is my final argument, codex rules over ride BRB rules, and going by what the dex says, he is just an upgrade and nothing more.

I don't disagree - Longstrike isn't a character by any means.
But your sentence that I quoted was incorrect.

First it was my sentence and I still disagree with the statement that page 110 makes it incorrect.

I believe you have an incorrect interpretation of page 110, on when it is applied, and are ignoring everything else that better explains the situation. If you read through my explanation and look at the codex entries you will be able to put page 110 into context. It is this larger picture that explains why page 110 even exists in the first place, to inform you of what the (unique) flag means. It isn't just a self contained rule, but one designed to be evoked by external sources that tell you when this rule is applied.

You will simply need to explain this the purpose of this flag, (unique), and why it exists if it is not to inform you when page 110 take effect if you think I am wrong.

JinxDragon wrote:
I believe you have an incorrect interpretation of page 110, on when it is applied, and are ignoring everything else that better explains the situation. If you read through my explanation and look at the codex entries you will be able to put page 110 into context. It is this larger picture that explains why page 110 even exists in the first place, to inform you of what the (unique) flag means. It isn't just a self contained rule, but one designed to be evoked by external sources that tell you when this rule is applied.

Kharn the Betrayer does not have the Unique special rule. Therefore, according to you, he is not unique. (page 92 C:CSM)
In fact, none of the Special Characters in C:CSM are unique - unless you apply page 110 to them.

You will simply need to explain this the purpose of this flag, (unique), and why it exists if it is not to inform you when page 110 take effect if you think I am wrong.

It exists to tell you when a model is unique. That does not mean that all unique models are special characters.

rigeld2 wrote:

Kharn the Betrayer does not have the Unique special rule. Therefore, according to you, he is not unique. (page 92 C:CSM)
In fact, none of the Special Characters in C:CSM are unique - unless you apply page 110 to them.

Yes it does. To the right between Unit Type, and the page reference it says Unit Composition: 1(Unique)

rigeld2: I don't think that's what anyone is saying. All Special Characters are Unique, but not all Unique things are Special Characters. Ya dig?

Longstrike is not a model however. He is an upgrade. He is not a Character, he has no Profile of his own.

Kharn the Betrayer is a Special Character. Kharn is Unique because he is a Special Character. He has a Profile which says he is an Independent Character.

See how they are different?

 Firehead158 wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Kharn the Betrayer does not have the Unique special rule. Therefore, according to you, he is not unique. (page 92 C:CSM)
In fact, none of the Special Characters in C:CSM are unique - unless you apply page 110 to them.

Yes it does. To the right between Unit Type, and the page reference it says Unit Composition: 1(Unique)

I... I fail a little bit. Sorry.

No worries, we all do it sometimes. Now do you see what we were talking about?

I guess it doesn't matter anyway, we're arguing semantics at this point.

Is it agreed that Longstrike only gets a precision shot of 6+ when he takes the ATS from the Vehicle Battle Systems section?

Edited: I sounded a little rude, this was not my intention.

Removed as someone previously explained the oversight and it was acknowledged, making this post useless.

cowmonaut wrote:
rigeld2: I don't think that's what anyone is saying. All Special Characters are Unique, but not all Unique things are Special Characters. Ya dig?

Longstrike is not a model however. He is an upgrade. He is not a Character, he has no Profile of his own.

Kharn the Betrayer is a Special Character. Kharn is Unique because he is a Special Character. He has a Profile which says he is an Independent Character.

See how they are different?

You're actually agreeing with me.

But it doesn't matter - my point was slightly off topic and I don't feel like discussing it further. Sorry for dragging it out.

 Firehead158 wrote:
Doesn't matter, we're arguing semantics at this point.

Is it agreed that Longstrike only gets a precision shot of 6+ when he takes the ATS from the Vehicle Battle Systems section?

Agreed on both counts IMO.

JinxDragon wrote:
Profiles clearly list if a model is unique with (Unique) flag.

Only in newer codexes. The "unique" tag is a recent invention. You are making up a requirement that doesnt exist (same as requiring them to be a character first - again, the character designation in a profile is a recent invention, back end of 5th. Prior to that you just looked to the BRB definition for "character" to determine who was one.

Being a special character makes you unique, as p110 states.