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I have shown the reason why, a few times now. All you have done is state it doesnt apply, with no rules to back you up.

I will not continue arguing here, fairly pointless now.

You have not shown the reason once. You have stated that you are "called upon" to divide the total and then seem to think that this makes therule relevant.
You have not shown that it is relevant because you have not shown that you need a whole number.
The rules that people have written that refute your position are: Max 25% on rares and the laws of mamathematics.
You have no case for spending over 25% on rares (by rounding up) unless you can show that you are called upon to have a WHOLE NUMBER for your limit, as that is the only time Divide to conquer can apply.

I do not blame you for conceding the argument, as that is logical, but you could admit that you were wrong...

nosferatu1001 wrote:
I have shown the reason why, a few times now. All you have done is state it doesnt apply, with no rules to back you up.

I will not continue arguing here, fairly pointless now.

Divide and conquer applies to various in game things like .7 of a wound.

However, writing an army list is not an in game thing. So you can have 499.75 points to spend on rare. Because if you take 500 points of special, you have reached the limit for a 2000 point army. Not a 1999 point army.

Niteware wrote:
You have not shown the reason once. You have stated that you are "called upon" to divide the total and then seem to think that this makes therule relevant.
You have not shown that it is relevant because you have not shown that you need a whole number.
The rules that people have written that refute your position are: Max 25% on rares and the laws of mamathematics.
You have no case for spending over 25% on rares (by rounding up) unless you can show that you are called upon to have a WHOLE NUMBER for your limit, as that is the only time Divide to conquer can apply.

I do not blame you for conceding the argument, as that is logical, but you could admit that you were wrong...

You never are told you need a whole number.
Divide on Conquer tells you to round up (to a whole number). I don't see an exception in force org to say otherwise.
Laws of Mathematics show that 25% of a value is the same as division.

-Matt

As I said before, 25% is obviously and categorically the same as division. Also, 1 is categorically and undeniably more than 0.75.

Divide to conquer does not say that all other values are rounded up + every example it uses is where a whole number is explicitly requirsd - it is the method of choosing what integer you use when one is required.

Meh.

other things to do.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
A dwarf has a movement of 3. His unit wants to move sideways. How far can it move?

1.5 inches. Because divide and conquer does not apply to movement. It applies to things that happen in games, that would make the game extremely difficult. Like 10% of 51 models. Which is what the book uses as an example.

Wrong.
Page 26 disagrees with you. The example of movement that is halved specifically references divide and conquer. Elves move sideways 3" (2.5" rounded up).
D&C seems to be a lot broader in application than you think.


-Matt

The repetitive point there is that there is a rule to round this up as well - there are no partial M values even though you can move 1/2 an inch without needing to round it.

Ratio relation does not require division, even though it is possible to use division to determine the same results.
It is not called for, regardless.

(I can use a bucket to figure if I got the right amount of soda. Who cares?)

editing to add:
This is why, I assume, nosferatu1001 refuses to address the issue of movement (et al), without capitalization (and even acknowledged such in this thread); fractions are allowed in WHFB - without rounding!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Just to be clear, you guys are asserting that 2x99.5 is > 199, right?

As that is the case here.

Or are you going to play with the rounding too?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
To expound on my point about examples, I am stating that the rules are preventing the superset you are assuming.
There are many, many examples of rules that need rounding.
Everything involving a stat, for example.

That is not to say that every rule needs rounding.
Which, as it reads, the rules go to lengths to avoid stating, yet some seem to infer.

Kirsanth - again, movement does round up....

WE also did not state that 2x99.5 is greater than 199; it can be, depending on when you use those results. 2 2.5 inch moves side ways would be greater than one 5" move, as each 2.5" move is rounded to 3".

The example given shows you DO use division for percentage calculation. You arent given a choice in the matter. You are essentially saying despite being given an entirely apropos example, %age leading to a rounding up, you choose not to use the rule in this instance, with no reason why not.

That is the issue with your position - you lack a rules basis.

So Divide to Conquer is part of general principles. This section states how to deal with situatoons which "pop up again and again whilst playing a game". Do you pick your list "whilst playing a game" or before playing a game?

WRiting a list isnt part of playing the game? When does the game, as a concept, start for you?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
2 2.5 inch moves side ways would be greater than one 5" move, as each 2.5" move is rounded to 3".

So two 3" moves sideways results in a move of less than 5"?

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WRiting a list isnt part of playing the game? When does the game, as a concept, start for you?

Writing a list is part of the game, but it doesn't happen whilst playing the game. Or, in a simpler phrase, during the game.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WE also did not state that 2x99.5 is greater than 199; it can be, depending on when you use those results.

No. It never is. Ever.
You may decide to round at some point, but your assertion is NEVER true.

 kirsanth wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
WE also did not state that 2x99.5 is greater than 199; it can be, depending on when you use those results.

No. It never is. Ever.
You may decide to round at some point, but your assertion is NEVER true.

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.
You are limited to moving half your move sideways, each inch sideways counts as 2.
Page 26 states that an Elf moves 3" sideways, because of Divide and Conquer.
With a move of 5, that sideways movement counts as 6", and it is Divide on Conquer that lets you break the limit.

Fundamentally, this is no different that having a rare limit of 499.75 being Conquered up to 500.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

We must be reading different rules.
My example never divided anything, so I have no clue why you think Divide and Conquer applies.

Same as with the OP.

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

Army lists, and point values come from the part of the rules called, Playing a Game.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 kirsanth wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:
Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

We must be reading different rules.
My example never divided anything, so I have no clue why you think Divide and Conquer applies.

Same as with the OP.

My example shows the hard limit (sideways movement counts as 2 inches for every inch moved). That's a hard limit. It's stating how far you can move, and your not allowed to move further.
But then in the example of the elf, you exceed the hard limit by moving greater than the limit (3", which would count as 6".)

In sideways movement 3" = 2.5"

I think we are reading different rules, because I'm reading page 26. What page are you reading?
To me, it seems like your trying to come up with convoluted math to avoid dividing.


-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

Army lists, and point values come from the part of the rules called, Playing a Game.

Is it a principle that pops up whilst playing a game? No. So Divide and Conquer doesn't apply.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

Army lists, and point values come from the part of the rules called, Playing a Game.

Is it a principle that pops up whilst playing a game? No. So Divide and Conquer doesn't apply.

Since selecting an army and the comp is listed under playing a game, yes, it does.

-Matt

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

Army lists, and point values come from the part of the rules called, Playing a Game.

Is it a principle that pops up whilst playing a game? No. So Divide and Conquer doesn't apply.

Since selecting an army and the comp is listed under playing a game, yes, it does.

-Matt

By your logic, I've been playing a game with my dark elves since the empire book came out. Since that's when I selected the army.

HawaiiMatt wrote:
I think we are reading different rules, because I'm reading page 26. What page are you reading?
To me, it seems like your trying to come up with convoluted math to avoid dividing.

Page 7, Divide to Conquer - which people are creating convoluted need to reference when creating an army list.

I agree there are places that state you need to round up. The disagreement I have is in the assertion that it is ALWAYS required.
Nothing states that fractions or decimals are illegal in Warhammer, and I have include examples where the ARE in the rules.

In the case of movement it tends to be because it involved a Stat which is not intended to be fractional.

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

 thedarkavenger wrote:

HawaiiMatt wrote:

Divide and Conquer allows you to exceed hard limits.

Except, as per the heading of the section which covers divide and conquer, it only applies while you're playing a game.

Army lists, and point values come from the part of the rules called, Playing a Game.

Is it a principle that pops up whilst playing a game? No. So Divide and Conquer doesn't apply.

Since selecting an army and the comp is listed under playing a game, yes, it does.

-Matt

By your logic, I've been playing a game with my dark elves since the empire book came out. Since that's when I selected the army.

Sigh...
Page 2:

This page simple summarizes the sequence of playing a Warhammer Battle, and points you to the relevant part of the book that explains how each stage works.

Step 1 is get two armies, point values and army lists.
Just because you aren't actually fighting until step 5 doesn't mean step 1 isn't part of the game. If you selected an opponent, choose an army, agreed on points, and made a list, but haven't actually done anything else, then yes, you would be playing a game since the book came out.
It's not my logic, it's simply reading the rules.

Do you have any rule reference to back up that it's not of the game?

Looks like were left with claiming that a limit of 25% of the the army value isn't dividing or that you can simply choose to Ignore D&C's rule, despite the opened ended "or other value" in the description of it's application.

-Matt

p.6 General Principles ...These are essentially principles that are so broad that they pop up again and again while you're playing a game...

p.7 Divide and Conquer Sometimes you'll be called upon to divide a die roll, a characteristic or some other value. When this happens, any fractions should always be rounded up.

So...whenever you divide, you round up the fractions. Always and forever. The questions, then, are:


1. Do you build your list while you're playing a game?

p.x Setting Up The Battle Once you and your opponent have your armies...ready for battle, the first step to playing a game of Warhammer is setting up the battlefield.

p.2 Overview of the Game...1. Muster Your Forces ...use the system of points values and army lists...on p.132

I want to argue in this thread, because I argue in every thread, but I don't know what this is about.

Warpsolution wrote:

The questions, then, are:
1. Do you build your list while you're playing a game?
p.x Setting Up The Battle Once you and your opponent have your armies...ready for battle, the first step to playing a game of Warhammer is setting up the battlefield.
p.2 Overview of the Game...1. Muster Your Forces ...use the system of points values and army lists...on p.132

p.132 Size of GameTo play a game of Warhammer, you and your opponent will need to decide...the total points values of your armies.
p.140 Fighting A Warhammer BattleSo you've read the rules [and] assembled your...army...it's time to set up and play a Warhammer battle[/quote
"The Rules" start on un-numbered cover page of 1; and go into detail on page 2. Page i, ii, IV, V and so on, are before "The Rules".
You're sequence is off.
P2 says
A) Muster forces (as per page 132)
B) Choose a Pitched Battle, (which is where you get the reference to play a battle, all the missions are labeled as "battles")
C) Set up battle field
D) Deploy Armies
E) Fight
F) Determine the Winner

Interestingly, under fighting a battle, you're told on page 141 to refer back to page 132 for The Armies.
If page 140 is the start of "the Game" then page 141 makes page 132 part of the game.
Here's the quote:

Each pitched battle contains the information you need to get set up and playing, broken down into the following categories: The Armies (this will normally be two armies of equal points value, chosen using the system on page 132), The Battle Field, Deployment, First Turn, Game Length, Victory Conditions and Scenario Special Rules.

2. When are you called upon to divide?
I'm not sure, but I believe that the La of Equality states that x/4 =.25x; that they have the same value, or represent the same mathematical object.
But even if this is true, the act of dividing still differs from that of multiplying.

We are told 25% and 50%, but not given the exact method. Since x/4 = .25x; you can multiple and have 499.75 points in rares. I'll divide and have 500.

-Matt

@Duke: yeah, I really had to think about it; this is so minor and so convoluted that I don't really care one way or the other.

@Matt: I feel like the phrase "set up and play" indicates that "playing the game" does't occur until after you've set it up.

And are you really being "called upon" to divide, when you could have multiplied?

I really have no stance one way or the other.

DukeRustfield wrote:
I want to argue in this thread, because I argue in every thread, but I don't know what this is about.

Your usual "Not going anywhere" YMDC thread. People grasping for preeeeeeeetty thin straws claiming that 2x99.5 can be more than 199 (dear god) etc. Not sure if sad or funny.

Surely when you make the amry list, you total up the points spent on rares (for example) and find it to be 500 points, then multiply this by 4 and... Oh NO! that's 2000, but I'm only playing a 1999point game, and have thus broken the rule (I don't have a rulebook with me at work so not sure where it is or what it is called).
There are no fractions involved so no need to round up, down, left or right

The issue, Triple_double_U, is that you could multiply your Rare selection by 4, and avoid decimals and rounding.
Or, you could divide 1999 by 4, come up with a fraction, and thus round up.

That's what people are trying to sort out.

You can do both, both use the rules, so both are correct methods. One gives you an illegal list, the other gives a list that is open to lengthy interpretation of the rules.

I always thought if something done according to the rules is illegal, its illegal.