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Orblivion wrote: For the most part I don't think it would have changed anything. Horus was actively pitting legions against each other to remove obstacles, I doubt he would have just moved on with his plans while the Thousand Sons and Space Wolves were still operating as normal. He just would have found another way.
There are two game changing changes
Horus has nobody on his side to counter Magnus Lorgar is the closest and even even he does not have the power that Magnus has.
Any legion that Horus sends against Magnus would be crushed in space as Magnus could have done to the space wolves but chose not to to atone for wrecking the wards of the imperial palace..
Which leads to the second game changer magnus not destroying the wards means that the emperor does not have to fight daemons trying to invade the palace meaning that the Emperor might take a more active role in the Heresy and go after the traitors.
Downside for magnus is that tzeentch will most certainly nullify the deal that was made with Magnus meaning that his Thousand Sons will mutate when the use warp power.
Err you do know that Magnus was bluffing when he claimed he could destroy their space ships? He has nowhere near that power and neither does the Emperor (who is incidentally a much more powerful psyker). The thousand sons were a very powerful legion though. From the traitor side the only legions that I believe would have been able to defeat them would have been the sons of Horus or the world eaters.
Pretty sure it was Tzeentch that offered to destroy the Space Wolves fleet for Magnus, not Magnus doing it himself.
And then, does Tzeentch even have that power? You'd expect it to be exercised at some point if he/it did...
Ernestas wrote:I do not argue with you. Emperor was stuck from that point, but he had a chance of saying his orders directly to Magnus during his tries to warn Emperor about heresy.
Also, from other w30k books it seems that only Emperor wasn't aware of brewing storm. "Mechanicus" novel is a great example how idealogic battles was fought way before any hint of heresy under his very nose. Allegiances was being chosen way before outbreak of heresy. Little things like favoring Horus name over Emperor's showed early hints of schism.
I guess, it's just arrogance and self-delusion that made him think that humanity can be protected by chaos only by his efforts alone. Also, I cannot understand how you could possibly miss that such legions as world eaters will fall to chaos at first opportunity.
Well, there is always the argument that the Emperor planned for the Heresy...
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Quite critique proof he is.
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
BaconUprising wrote: Err you do know that Magnus was bluffing when he claimed he could destroy their space ships? He has nowhere near that power and neither does the Emperor (who is incidentally a much more powerful psyker). The thousand sons were a very powerful legion though. From the traitor side the only legions that I believe would have been able to defeat them would have been the sons of Horus or the world eaters.
He wasn't bluffing. It wouldn't be his power destroying them.
And given what we've seen alpha plus level psykers do, I wouldn't put it past Magnus (much less the Emperor) to tear a ship from space Starkiller-style.
Well, there is always the argument that the Emperor planned for the Heresy...
Is it an argument, or more or less fact, at least for the later portion of the heresy? If we take Outcast Dead at face value (which I loathe to do, since it establishes the Emperor as a fool and/or callous monster who can't tell/doesn't care what is going on in his backyard, pointlessly brings back the Thunder Warriors, and mixes up the Istvaan timeline), then the Emperor was pretty much told exactly how the Heresy would play out, and adjusted his strategy from playing to win to playing not to lose. So you could say how the Heresy resolved itself and the state of the Imperium now is the best case scenario the Emperor could accomplish.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/19 21:42:29
BaconUprising wrote: Err you do know that Magnus was bluffing when he claimed he could destroy their space ships? He has nowhere near that power and neither does the Emperor (who is incidentally a much more powerful psyker). The thousand sons were a very powerful legion though. From the traitor side the only legions that I believe would have been able to defeat them would have been the sons of Horus or the world eaters.
He wasn't bluffing. It wouldn't be his power destroying them.
And given what we've seen alpha plus level psykers do, I wouldn't put it past Magnus (much less the Emperor) to tear a ship from space Starkiller-style.
As I said - assuming you're referring to the scene from A Thousand Sons - wasn't it Tzeentch, not Magnus, that offered to destroy the Space Wolves fleet?
"It is the great irony of the Legiones Astartes: engineered to kill to achieve a victory of peace that they can then be no part of." - Roboute Guilliman
"As I recall, your face was tortured. Imagine that - the Master of the Wolves, his ferocity twisted into grief. And yet you still carried out your duty. You always did what was asked of you. So loyal. So tenacious. Truly you were the attack dog of the Emperor. You took no pleasure in what you did. I knew that then, and I know it now. But all things change, my brother. I'm not the same as I was, and you're... well, let us not mention where you are now." - Magnus the Red, to a statue of Leman Russ
BaconUprising wrote: Err you do know that Magnus was bluffing when he claimed he could destroy their space ships? He has nowhere near that power and neither does the Emperor (who is incidentally a much more powerful psyker). The thousand sons were a very powerful legion though. From the traitor side the only legions that I believe would have been able to defeat them would have been the sons of Horus or the world eaters.
He wasn't bluffing. It wouldn't be his power destroying them.
And given what we've seen alpha plus level psykers do, I wouldn't put it past Magnus (much less the Emperor) to tear a ship from space Starkiller-style.
Well, there is always the argument that the Emperor planned for the Heresy...
Is it an argument, or more or less fact, at least for the later portion of the heresy? If we take Outcast Dead at face value (which I loathe to do, since it establishes the Emperor as a fool and/or callous monster who can't tell/doesn't care what is going on in his backyard, pointlessly brings back the Thunder Warriors, and mixes up the Istvaan timeline), then the Emperor was pretty much told exactly how the Heresy would play out, and adjusted his strategy from playing to win to playing not to lose. So you could say how the Heresy resolved itself and the state of the Imperium now is the best case scenario the Emperor could accomplish.
show me one example of Magnus, not any other alpha pushers who came after him, doing anything slightly on that scale.
Magnus in A Thousand Sons razes the very surface of Prospero, destroying Tizca itself with a cataclysmic earthquake, and his power actually rips a hole in the veil itself around the world.
Destroying a fleet is frankly trivial in terms of raw power output, the only difficulty he might have would be from the distances involved.
Pretty sure it was Tzeentch that offered to destroy the Space Wolves fleet for Magnus, not Magnus doing it himself.
And then, does Tzeentch even have that power? You'd expect it to be exercised at some point if he/it did...
Magnus threatened to destroy the Space Wolf fleet on Aghoru when the captain sent to retrieve him got all uppity. He then demonstrated his power by freezing the flow of time on the planet for everything but Magnus, the Space Wolf captain, and the Thousand Sons present (Which also could count as one such showing of power for you, BaconRising).
Later, on Prospero, Tzeentch does indeed offer to destroy the fleet of Space Wolves homing in, but Magnus refuses. That is what you are thinking of.
As for if Tzeentch has the power, of course he does.
Look at what the birth of a single Chaos God did to the Eldar civilization and the galaxy itself, look at how the Dark Gods' rage obliterated the planet of Caliban, and of course note that the Chaos Gods deliberately stirred up the Warp before and during the Heresy, to make Warp travel far more perilous.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/07/20 05:49:36
Yes I agree that tzeetch could easily do that. Void_Dragon do you think you could quote that passage to me? I never thought it was Magnus tearing up tizca, if so I stand corrected.
"PURPLE LIGHTNING SPLIT the sky and the heavens darkened with the sudden fall of night. A deluge of black rain fell, soaking everything in an instant
and saturating the air with the bitter taste of sodden ashes. Ahriman looked up in shock to see a flaming giant descending from the highest reaches
of the Pyramid of Photep. The crux ansata rippled with pellucid green fire, and kaleidoscopic bolts of lightning slammed into the ground, immolating
dozens of the cursed Wulfen with every blazing strike.
Cracks split the ground and the waters surrounding the pyramid seethed and boiled with anger. Black waves crashed upon the shores, and the
glass shards falling from the pyramid were caught in a surging, sentient whirlwind that hurled them like spears to impale enemy warriors and skewer
them to the ground.
Ahriman felt an enormous build up of energy, and summoned all his strength to control his body, knowing the mutations within his flesh would
seek to throw off the shackles of his form and unleash new and terrifying ones within him. Yet the painful surge of mutant growth never came, and he
looked up at the radiant being of fire and light that drew ever closer.
Magnus the Red was a glorious sight, his golden armour and wild red hair ablaze with aetheric energy. His bladed staff threw off blinding arcs of
lightning that destroyed armoured vehicles in thunderous explosions. Magnus swept his eye across the horrified Space Wolves, and all who met his
gaze died in an instant as they were driven to madness by the stygian depths of infinite chaos they saw there.
Above Tizca, madness raged as the power of the Great Ocean pressed in and the sky became a transparent window into the realm beyond.
Gibbous eyes the size of mountains, and amorphous monsters the likes of which only madmen could dream, leered down on the doomed world
below. Hundreds died instantly at the sight of such blasphemous horrors.
No sane man could witness such vileness without recoiling, and the invading army paused in its slaughter, shocked by the sight of such dreadful
things glaring hungrily at the world below. Even the Wulfen cowered before the sight of these abominable creatures, suddenly feeling the
overwhelming insignificance of their existence.
Only Leman Russ and his wolf companions stood unfazed by this vision of Magnus, and Ahriman saw a gleam of anticipation in the Wolf King’s
eyes, as though he relished the idea of the coming conflict.
Magnus set foot on the causeway, and the normal tempo of time’s passage slowed, each raindrop falling as though in slow motion, the
zigzagging traceries of lightning moving with infinite slowness. The volcanic stone of the causeway rippled with transformative energies beneath
Magnus’ feet, and Ahriman dropped to his knees before his primarch, centuries of ingrained obedience making the motion unconscious.
The Primarch of the Thousand Sons was a divine, rapturous figure of light amid the darkness. The gold of his armour had never been brighter,
the red of his vast mane never more vivid. His flesh burned with the touch of immense power, greater than anything it had ever contained before.
His eye locked onto Ahriman, and the depths of despair he saw in that haunted, glowing orb froze the blood in his veins. In that moment, Ahriman
felt the horror Magnus had felt as his sons mutated into monsters and the anguish, centuries later, as he watched them butchered to serve a
brother’s lunatic ambition."
The beginning of Magnus' descent to the battlefield.
"Prospero was breaking apart, the veil between worlds cracking, and the maddening gibbers and screams of the Great Ocean’s denizens drove
men to their knees in terror. The assault on the senses was total, and Ahriman could barely keep his feet as hurricane-force winds battered the
pyramid, tearing glass panes from its structure and breaking the silver and gold towers from its corners. Thunder banged in the midnight sky, and
heaving earthquakes ripped ever-widening cracks in the ground, toppling what few structures of Tizca remained standing.
The epicentre of this destruction was Magnus and Russ, and Ahriman watched the two titans wrestle with the bitter enmity reserved only for those
who had once called each other friend. Such a contest of arms was the most desperate thing Ahriman had ever seen. He wanted to rush forward
and remind them of their former kinship, but to intervene in such a planet-shaking conflict would be suicide."
Ah see that's what I thought you would quote. That wasn't caused by Magnus. It happened when that you captain lost control of his power and created a huge rift to the warp (after destroying the Titan) I'm certain that wasn't Magnus.
BaconUprising wrote: Ah see that's what I thought you would quote. That wasn't caused by Magnus. It happened when that you captain lost control of his power and created a huge rift to the warp (after destroying the Titan) I'm certain that wasn't Magnus.
There is no text that supports this.
Phael overloading happened over a full chapter before the effects described in what I quoted took place, and they only took place when Magnus himself descended to the battlefield.
Sadly, in Eisenhorn novel alpha+ psykers are quite fragile. Even 33 of them was quickly destroyed then they went on rampage through Imperial lines. There they was quite localised threat even though, they were unbeatable at that they were doing. Some just overpowered minds of an entire legions of citiziens and further mind controlled them, others were insta-killing everyone with their spells and soaking terrible amounts of punishment. In the end, it was showed that alpha plus psykers are very vulnerable on their own. They tend to die from unpredictability of war, meaning, they are likely to die from sources which escapes their attention or then they are unaware of larger picture. That also explains why soul drinkers were able to kill rogue alpha psyker in a ''duel'' or Magnus failing to beat space wolves in novel, ''Battle of the Fang''.
Other thing is an importance of spells. For me it seems that they are great amplifiers of own personal power, but due to tendency for alpha psykers to be completely mad or arrogant, they often do not practice and exercise their powers making even much lower grade psykers to perform quite well in comparison.
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/07/23 19:27:36
"If the path to salvation leads through the halls of purgatory, then so be it."
Death Guard = 728 (PL 41) and Space Marines = 831 (PL 50)
Slaanesh demons = 460
Khorne demons = 420
Nighthaunts = 840 points Stormcast Eternals = 880 points.
Actually the reason given was that Magnus suffers from Alzheimer's and forgot that he was a Primarch, so had to be constantly reminded of the fact so he could use his full power.
BaconUprising wrote: Ah see that's what I thought you would quote. That wasn't caused by Magnus. It happened when that you captain lost control of his power and created a huge rift to the warp (after destroying the Titan) I'm certain that wasn't Magnus.
There is no text that supports this.
Phael overloading happened over a full chapter before the effects described in what I quoted took place, and they only took place when Magnus himself descended to the battlefield.
ye but it then ripped a warp rift open. After this event the thousand sons started loosing control of their powers. Soon after Phosis'Tkar lost his and died then the massive flamy Titan dude died due to a loss of control. It's was because the warp was flooding into the planet and filling them with too much power.
BaconUprising wrote: ye but it then ripped a warp rift open. After this event the thousand sons started loosing control of their powers. Soon after Phosis'Tkar lost his and died then the massive flamy Titan dude died due to a loss of control. It's was because the warp was flooding into the planet and filling them with too much power.
Thousand Sons losing control of their power =/= the climate on Prospero changing and a rift being suddenly torn in the veil the very moment of Magnus' descent.
Lets assume for a moment Magnus does not use sorcery to signal the Emperor. He doesn't blow out the golden throne, and the Emperor's workshop isn't overrun by demons.
The implications are that he does not order Russ to Prospero. Tzeneech needs a backup plan to put Magnus and the Thousand Sons in jeopardy so they will call to him for aid.
Instead of Istavan 3, the forces of Chaos chose Prospero as their lure. The long term infiltration of Prospero's sorcerous brotherhoods by Tzennech allows him to foment rebellion and eventually take over the planet, just as on Istavan. Horus and the other traitor legions arrive to subdue the planet, but Magnus and his forces request the honor to drop first.
It is a trap.
The Thousand Sons drop into the waiting guns of their former brethren. The chaos tainted guard use the Son's love of knowledge against them, fighting from pyramid libraries and schools. At the same time the Son's bound demons feed on the chaos and start to corrupt and mutate their former "masters".
Horus takes the opportunity to pull his forces back, letting the Sons take the brunt of the attack and putting them in even more dire straits. Magus's plea for aid is denied due to the rampant mutation and demonic possession, or so Horus says.
Just as before, Magnus cannot abide the death of his sons, and chooses to embrace Tzeneech in order to save them. In that moment, Prospero becomes a demon world, and Horus urgently calls for "reinforcements" from the Raven Guard, Iron Hands, White Scars and Salamanders...
Void__Dragon wrote: I know. And not once was it alluded to that all that occurred when Magnus descended was Phael's deathsplosion.
Meanwhile, a big deal was made of the power Magnus was conjuring with his sorceries.
I just read one thousand sons for the first time, and no where it alluded to that. Magnus' power caused the rift, simple as that. If it was meant to be as you said, then the writer poorly portrayed that.
It never claims that Magnus' power caused the rift. He's still in his tower until the very end of the fight. Now I'm not saying he is weak in the slightest, I still believe he is the most powerful primarch but he is not capable of that.
BaconUprising wrote: It never claims that Magnus' power caused the rift. He's still in his tower until the very end of the fight. Now I'm not saying he is weak in the slightest, I still believe he is the most powerful primarch but he is not capable of that.
While it never states it, it also doesn't give another explanation, it is implied.
I just read one thousand sons for the first time, and no where it alluded to that. Magnus' power caused the rift, simple as that. If it was meant to be as you said, then the writer poorly portrayed that.
I just read one thousand sons for the first time, and no where it alluded to that. Magnus' power caused the rift, simple as that. If it was meant to be as you said, then the writer poorly portrayed that.
So... You're agreeing with me?
If you know it was Magnus that caused the rift, then yes.
Fluff for the Fluff God! 
