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 purplefood wrote:
And yet. We don't know for certain...
Frankly the words and actions of a 10,000 year old traitor who regularly allies himself with what can basically be considered the enemy of life doesn't have much of a standing when it comes to trustworthiness.

And when has Eliphas ever lied?

 purplefood wrote:
And yet. We don't know for certain...
Frankly the words and actions of a 10,000 year old traitor who regularly allies himself with what can basically be considered the enemy of life doesn't have much of a standing when it comes to trustworthiness.

Trustworthiness applies more if it's a direct statement, I think. The fact that he's using it to be snarky and smug to the Blood Ravens as opposed to outright telling them something like that they're descended from traitors means he's probably doing it more for his own ego and smugness (and thus, more likely to not be lying) than anything else, really.

Nothing is confirmed, but by now it's pretty frikkin' obvious what various fluff writers at least want you to SUSPECT.

 Kain wrote:

 purplefood wrote:
And yet. We don't know for certain...
Frankly the words and actions of a 10,000 year old traitor who regularly allies himself with what can basically be considered the enemy of life doesn't have much of a standing when it comes to trustworthiness.

And when has Eliphas ever lied?

Probably all the godamn time.
He's a freaking traitor marine working for a group of being who are the enemy of everyone ever.
I know what the writers want me to believe but frankly at this point they should either say 'yeah descended from x' or just shut the hell up because right now it seems like they are more interested in dropping terrible hints and just being 'super special secret snowflake' than anything else.

TiamatRoar wrote:


Nothing is confirmed, but by now it's pretty frikkin' obvious what various fluff writers at least want you to SUSPECT.

Sure. But one of the reasons they won't nail it is, almost certainly, to allow you the liberty to ignore it for "your" Blood Ravens, if it doesn't float your boat.

And, to give room for change.

Minotaurs were, for decades, written to heavily imply that they were an experiment of sorts of creating a loyal chapter with World Eater gene-seed. Yet, with their most recent Badab War book, Forge World went all-out into the opposite direction with them.

An idea fancied by a writer 10 years ago may not fancy a different writer working on the same chapter 5 years from now. Better to keep things ... ambiguous .. and everyone can pick what they like best.

Yep. I'm just pointing out that trying to discredit hints that obviously were intended to make you suspect they're descended from the traitor legions is silly. Saying "Oh, this guy can't be trusted" or "Oh, there's no way they can be descended from a traitor legion despite those hints" is ignoring the blatantly obvious fact that the writers included those hints in the first place to leave open the possibility.

....that said, the Thousand Sons guy who uses their signature quote really rockets the whole thing into "as confirmed as it'll ever get while still leaving you with enough possibility, slim as it is, to say "NO! KEEP YOUR TRAITOR SEED OUT OF MY BLOOD RAVENS!!!!" Though IMHO you'll still look pretty silly to everyone, but hey, at least you're doing what floats your boat, which is why they left it open after all.

I never said there's no way they could be descended from the traitor legions. I'm just saying we can't say for certain either way.

That "quote" is not owned by the Blood Ravens. "Knowledge is power, guard it well" takes a real-world motivational quote that's been around for freaking ever ("Knowledge is power...") and then adds a dystopian slant to it ("... guard it well."). It's dystopian because in the modern world, "knowledge", what we believe to be education and learning, is thought to be available to everyone through schools, libraries, a free press, and so forth and so on... but in 40K, that is inverted, and knowledge is to be locked away and guarded, reserved for the few and denied to the masses.

Upshot is, that phrase can be used within the 40K setting without any reference to the Blood Ravens *or* the Thousand Sons and be just as grimdark.

Its use in this context is not confirmation of the BR origins, it's just more "evidence" (to some) and "vague hints" (to others).

 Zweischneid wrote:

TiamatRoar wrote:


Nothing is confirmed, but by now it's pretty frikkin' obvious what various fluff writers at least want you to SUSPECT.

Sure. But one of the reasons they won't nail it is, almost certainly, to allow you the liberty to ignore it for "your" Blood Ravens, if it doesn't float your boat.

And, to give room for change.

Minotaurs were, for decades, written to heavily imply that they were an experiment of sorts of creating a loyal chapter with World Eater gene-seed. Yet, with their most recent Badab War book, Forge World went all-out into the opposite direction with them.

An idea fancied by a writer 10 years ago may not fancy a different writer working on the same chapter 5 years from now. Better to keep things ... ambiguous .. and everyone can pick what they like best.

The Minotaurs are now said to be a Chimeric chapter with influences from multiple sources of Geneseeds the High lords of terra blended together to make the perfect attack dogs. There may indeed be some of the World Eaters in there for sheer aggression and fury in battle.

A reasonable compromise that could be made is that the Blood Ravens are also to some degree chimeric.

 Kain wrote:

The Minotaurs are now said to be a Chimeric chapter with influences from multiple sources of Geneseeds the High lords of terra blended together to make the perfect attack dogs. There may indeed be some of the World Eaters in there for sheer aggression and fury in battle.

A reasonable compromise that could be made is that the Blood Ravens are also to some degree chimeric.

Actually, isn't there a quote somewhere or statement regarding the Blood Ravens that has them speculated (in-universe) to be chimeric?

When I think about it, chimeric with some Thousands Sons DNA might actually make the most sense of all, since the Blood Ravens share some traits but are missing others (like the flesh change).

As a side topic, Minotaurs, like-wise, if chimeric, almost positively have some world eater gene-seed somewhere in them. After all, you have whackos like THIS guy In the chapter.

http://www.forgeworld.co.uk/New_Stuff/HECATON_AIAKOS_MINOTAURS_CONTEMPTOR_DREADNOUGHT.html

Besides chimeric gene seed, I wouldn't be surprised if the High Lords included all sorts of mental implants and brain-wash crazy shenanigans as well (note that the linked guy's rampage was stopped only with a vox order from the chapter master. Possibly a key "on/off button" word). Even the chapter master could potentially actually be a bunch of different guys (but only one at a time, of course) brainwashed into being the chapter master, "Asterion Moloc". I wouldn't be surprised of Forge World did this on purpose to parallel how the World Eaters' butcher's nails implants took away their own sense of self control and individuality (although in the Minotaurs' case, the High Lords hypothetically were smart enough to make sure the implants included ways to control them)

Weren't the Minotaurs part of the curse 21st founding, which is rumored to have been the AM's attempt to blend various chapters' gene-seed in order to create "super-Astarte"? Wouldn't that make all the cursed chapters, to some degree, Chimeric?

I thought it was only stated that the mechanium tried to improve on the Emperor's methods, not that that chimeric geneseed was the only way they did that. Although it does likely mean that most are chimeric, but not necessarily all. I don't think the Lamenters are, for example (In that case, the Mechanicus likely didn't have to use chimeric gene seed. The Blood Angel's FLAW is quite obvious, thus focus would be on perfecting that flaw within a singular gene seed instead of trying to combine multiple types).

Strangely enough, when I colored my Marines in Dawn of War purple and gave them the leprechaun from Lucky Charms as a chapter icon, the characters still said "knowledge is power, guard it well."

I think the only thing we really know for sure about the Blood Ravens is that they're one of longer running troll jobs on the fan base, lol .

 Kain wrote:

The Minotaurs are now said to be a Chimeric chapter with influences from multiple sources of Geneseeds the High lords of terra blended together to make the perfect attack dogs. There may indeed be some of the World Eaters in there for sheer aggression and fury in battle.

A reasonable compromise that could be made is that the Blood Ravens are also to some degree chimeric.

Why does there need to be a compromise (for either Minotaurs or Blood Ravens)?

If you want them to be pure traitor-legion successors, do it.
If you want them to be pure loyalist-legion successors, do it.
If you want them to be chimeric, do it.
If you want them to be something totally different yet again (Lost Legions, whatever, etc..), do it.

There is no need for compromise, because there is no need to nail it down to any particular answer. All are equally valid. Pick the one you like best for "your" personal Minotaurs/Blood Ravens and go to town.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:
Strangely enough, when I colored my Marines in Dawn of War purple and gave them the leprechaun from Lucky Charms as a chapter icon, the characters still said "knowledge is power, guard it well."

That's just a consequence of the army painting feature, though. You could colour your Sisters as being Argent Shroud but they wouldn't suddenly become women of few words. Likewise, you can colour your Orks as Snakebites and still have Flash Gitz who will go on about how great their Shootas are.

We might as well take all Marine dialogue as Blood Raven dialogue, since they're the ones who feature in the campaign story.

I've read the whole thread and I have to admit, the 1K Sons link is quite overwhelming, that said I will agree with Purple that it is merely a link - there is no definitive proof to say Yea or Nae, but it's looks pretty likely.

Here's something to else to cogitate on then: The Carcharodons.

They're essentially an unknown and forgotten chapter who descend from the void above the Galaxy, clad in large amounts of ancient Mk V Heresy armour and other older marks of weaponry/armour and then proceed to put even the Minotaurs, who themselves are renowned for being fierce, to shame in a literal storm of carnage across the Badab War. Then, that done, they disappear back up into the void, just after having ransacked former Mantis Warrior strongholds for armaments and recruits. That literally screams re-branded loyalist World Eaters to me...

However, that said, it's just a tenuous theory I have - not in any way canon. IA-10 states a *possible* link to the Raven Guard from gene-seed mutations/similarities and they are noted for a preference for highly mobile strikes. That really doesn't explain the sheer bloodthirsty nature of them though.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Carcharodons#.UeB1JqyYv_Y

Probably Raven Guard, definitely not World Eaters. Too efficient in planning, too cunning in overall strategy.

Oh yeah, I know that they probably will be Raven Guard successors if that's what FW are insinuating (I have read the Lex document before posting the above), but the whole bloodthirsting seems way out of character for a Raven Guard successor chapter (assuming of course that their age indicates Second-Founding and adopting the parent Legion's ethos).

Eh, I dunno. There are plenty of "savage" Loyalist Chapters with known origins. And, really, not everyone can be the Space Wolves/Salamanders/Imperial Fists/Ultramarines who are all touchy-feely in supporting the "common man" and gung-ho for defending the weak and puny.

*Someone* on the loyalist side has got to be willing to get their hands dirty, get in there, feth gak up, and get out.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
I've read the whole thread and I have to admit, the 1K Sons link is quite overwhelming, that said I will agree with Purple that it is merely a link - there is no definitive proof to say Yea or Nae, but it's looks pretty likely.

Here's something to else to cogitate on then: The Carcharodons.

They're essentially an unknown and forgotten chapter who descend from the void above the Galaxy, clad in large amounts of ancient Mk V Heresy armour and other older marks of weaponry/armour and then proceed to put even the Minotaurs, who themselves are renowned for being fierce, to shame in a literal storm of carnage across the Badab War. Then, that done, they disappear back up into the void, just after having ransacked former Mantis Warrior strongholds for armaments and recruits. That literally screams re-branded loyalist World Eaters to me...

However, that said, it's just a tenuous theory I have - not in any way canon. IA-10 states a *possible* link to the Raven Guard from gene-seed mutations/similarities and they are noted for a preference for highly mobile strikes. That really doesn't explain the sheer bloodthirsty nature of them though.

Carcharodons are brutal in battle but are actually quite polite outside of it. The Deathwatch Honour the Chapter noted their reverence for the Emperor when one of them stopped by a shrine, and a Rogue Trader who was rescued by them noted that they were "Polite, but very firm" when "requesting" some of his equipment in payment for the rescue (IE, as if the Rogue Trader had best hand it over, but also being a justified request at the same time. And they only asked for what they needed). Carcharodons are really meant to evoke the image of a shark in all forms. A shark prowls the deep ocean (Deep Space, in this case) with stealth and grace and chooses its targets carefully (Imperium scholars note that they have to be very selective with targets to survive in Deep Space), but goes absolutely beserk once in combat. The latter part is admititngly world-eater-ish but the former part isn't. While I can see the possibility of them having some World Eater gene seed, it's also possible (and IMHO, what I personally would go with) that they're simply... well, extremely practical (due to their hazardous duty) Raven Guard that happen to become no-nonsense once combat starts, and their lack of empathy for their enemies comes from a combination of how seriously they take their duties (there's a history piece that describes it as "the sacred duty to patrol beyond the stars) and how they can't afford to be nice to enemies in their line of work (but again, when it comes to allies, they're at least polite, if a bit cold).

The Minotaurs to compare are potentially so world-eater-ish that they POSSIBLY (none of it's confirmed, just shown alongside in-universe speculation) require a literal on-off button in some cases (like Haeikos the dreadnaught) and Asterion Morloc never socializes with anyone (he's possibly even the equivalent of a human "robot", mentally, considering the lack of socializing and the fact that he might just be multiple bodies programmed with Asterion Morloc's memories whenever one gets killed). Only the Reclusiarch actually speaks to anyone, and even he's not very sociable at all. The whole thing evokes the minotaurs as more a weapon than anything else that can barely be considered human due to their one-dimensional focus on killing and singling out worthy opponents, with the Imperium (or at least, the High Lords) being lucky enough to have some sort of control over them that might even go so far as outright ACTUAL control. They don't even show any reverence to their dreadnaughts. They pretty much exist only for the slaughter and seeking out worthy opponents. If the World Eaters never went traitor and the Butcher's Nails were changed to include remote control devices (with the High Lords holding the remotes), you'd pretty much end up with the Minotaurs, really.

Ok, I was merely putting out a theory along the lines of others you've been discussing Could you provide a link to the possible many bodies of Moloc, just I'd quite like to read into that a bit.

 Warpig1815 wrote:
Ok, I was merely putting out a theory along the lines of others you've been discussing Could you provide a link to the possible many bodies of Moloc, just I'd quite like to read into that a bit.

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Asterion_Moloc#.UeB-TaPD-Uk

The last paragraph, which comes from the latest IA volume. Of course, again, this is just in-universe speculation from people trying to explain how the guy keeps apparently dying yet keeps living. But IMHO it does a lot to give the Minotaurs the feel of being more weapon than marine, with the High Lords holding the trigger (a flamer weapon )

Oh, and now I see this (which I assume is word for word from IA, but I could be wrong):

"The name of the bloody-handed and paranoid master of the Minotaurs Chapter, Lord Asterion Moloc revels in his dark reputation, and his name is a byword for slaughter and destruction carried out in the Emperor's name on a score of worlds. The veteran of a hundred battles, his body has been heavily rebuilt with cybernetic augments and his sheer spite and malice is enough to allow him to shrug off wounds that would fell a lesser Space Marine. A brutal tactician, Lord Asterion Moloc takes pleasure in the utter destruction of his foes, and is most often found in battle at the head of his Terminators slamming into the enemy line. He is also a diligent and disciplined logistician and strategist, and a master of siegecraft. Outside of battle he can be found on his brazen throne at the center of the maze-like chambers of the heavy assault carrier Daedelos Krata, surrounded by data-feeds, tabulation servitors, and casualty reports, measuring the drops of blood spilt in quest of his Chapter's strategic goals."

Key words: Slaughter, destruction, spite, malice, brutal, pleasure in the utter destruction, (war) discipline, brazen throne, measuring the drops of blood. The guy's practically "Khorne if he were a (controlled?) loyalist chapter master"

Minotaurs do seem to be world eaters without the red armour,

Had considered a space sharks army instead of blood ravens very different fluff wise but much more aggressive in play style .

It sounds like in most cases people can agree a high possibility that that high lords have been using geenseed from traitor primarchs to produce newer founding chapters like the minotaurs and red scorpions, and that the loyalist traitor chapter may be the case too, so Blood Ravens could easily be 1KS that didn't fall in the siege, or be a later founding chapter using their geenseed, simply spent too much time near weird tech and the warp search for relics and had their seed altered somehow making them more psychic, anything (nearly) seems to be acceptable by some, if dismissed by others

Cool

I'm surprised no one's compared them to the Unforgiven yet. It's not exactly surprising that a large contingent of Loyalists from a Traitor Legion decided to hide their origins so as not to be ostracized by their comrades. While the Dark Angels' primarch admittedly stayed 100% loyal, it's not like Magnus had much of a choice...

Yeah.

I mean, there are official hints and insinuations that (old) Minotaurs may have World Eater gene-seed, Blood Ravens may have TS gene-seed, etc..

There are no such insinuations indicating a link between Carcharodons and World Eaters. Savagery isn't something unique to the World Eaters (Space Wolves? Blood Angels? etc..), and to assume that every loyalist chapter that goes about their work with a level of frenzy and savagery must be related to the World Eaters is stretching it.

I think the descriptions for the Carcharodons, as said, are meant to stress the analogy of their warfare to the behaviour of sharks. Their gene-flaw, black eyes & pale skin, clearly indicate Raven Guard (or, if you must have traitors, Night Lords).

 Binks wrote:
It sounds like in most cases people can agree a high possibility that that high lords have been using geenseed from traitor primarchs to produce newer founding chapters

Some people can agree on that.

I think it only makes sense if the HLoT think like out-of-character thirteen year-olds.

There's also the whole 'Emperor stasis-locked the gene-seed so no one can access it but him'

No, if you analyse the evidence from all the books and other data, the BR, could possibly be TS, because 4th and 8th Fellowship were out crusading, and 2000 Astartes is more than enough to make a chapter, plus other TS visited Prospero after its burning (the name of that short story, I forgot)

On the other hand, it doesn't explain the non-deterioration of the BR geen-seed, or the fact that the Inquisition would clearly know of this.

Whoops, managed to be way late into the thread, thought I was at the end and wasn't.

 Phosis T'Kar Jr wrote:


On the other hand, it doesn't explain the non-deterioration of the BR geen-seed, or the fact that the Inquisition would clearly know of this.

Not all gene seed is alike, I suppose. It''s possible that the loyalist 1k Sons that were away from Prospero just happened to have more stable gene seed on average, either through sheer coincidence, through Magnus sending out the ones with stable gene seed on purpose, or through some machination of Tzeentch. Heck, if I recall correctly, the only real reason the flesh change came back to the 1k Sons after they went traitor is because they were in the Warp so even the prior "cure" that Magnus used didn't work anymore (Just as Planned, of course).

As for the Inquisition, most indications are the Blood Angel records were destroyed, which is why even the Inquisition doesn't know anymore. In-universe, this isn't treated as particularly odd, and even has some in-universe speculation for why that might be the case (that the Blood Ravens were created for some special purpose long ago which they ended up fulfilling. This explanation is treated as if it were a perfectly logical explanation).

It's also possible to seal off records from even the Inquisition (the Minotaurs, for example), though I don't think that's the case with the Blood Ravens.

 Seaward wrote:

 Binks wrote:
It sounds like in most cases people can agree a high possibility that that high lords have been using geenseed from traitor primarchs to produce newer founding chapters

Some people can agree on that.

I think it only makes sense if the HLoT think like out-of-character thirteen year-olds.

It was during the Cursed Founding that most of these alleged speculated traitor gene seed chapters were made (Well, Sons of Antaeus and Minotaurs. Red Scorpions and Blood Angels have evidence that they preceded that founding). At the time, the Mechanicus was being experimental in general. I suppose it just happened that many of the higher up mechanicus were Radicals at the time, considering all that heretical 'innovation' they were attempting. Presumably, after that disasterous founding (the majority of the chapters from it ended up being destroyed or falling to Chaos. Those psychopath Minotaurs were relatively a SUCCESS compared to the others), the Mechanicus won't be doing that again.

The "new" Minotaurs were probably just some highlords (of which the Fabricator General of the Mechanicus is one) deciding to make the best of a bad situation, assuming they used the old Minotaurs or their gene seed to do it. They had a chapter which was borderline heretical yet salvageable so they decided to implement some drastic measures to keep it within the Imperium and under control. ...or to make a new chapter based on it or under control. ......or to just lie that their new (maybe) super brainwashed cronies are the same as the old chapter just to cover it up. Who knows.

Steel Confessors (who, I believe, are an actual GW chapter. One of the few "special snowflake" chapters GW made instead of the usual standard ones) also had a very questionable founding, so it wouldn't be the first time one of the Imperial organizations tried these kinds of shenanigans.