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 Redbeard wrote:

Did you completely fail to read the rest of my post? If you looked at the sample I put in, you'd see that resilience was a factor, as was effectiveness versus a range of targets.

Mobility (or, more importantly, Area of Control, as LabMouse pointed out) should also be part of the general equation. You don't need to be mobile if you're equipped with a weapon with a 60" range that ignores LoS...

Clearly it's in-principle possible to develop a complete mathematical model of the game, and it is probably possible to determine relative point costs in an objective "given optimal play" sense (this might break down if there is no one dominant meta), but it's simply not practical to do this with an explicit model. You would instead want to try to develop an excellent AI player and then simulate bunches of games to find the strongest lists and the strongest choices in each codex. Any simple equation like the one you're describing is always going to have a significant amount of error in it such that it probably won't do a much better job than a reasonably math-aware person could do without an explicit formula. Math is mostly useful for players, in that it shows what different units are good for, and for revealing gross point imbalances. It's not going to be able to help much to quantify slow codex creep or to get you to within better than +/- ~20% of the "true" value of a unit.

So I imagine if you wanted to actually break down the value of a unit, the things to categorize would be dakka per point, choppa per point, resiliency, and area of incluence?

This squad of noise marines have 8 sonic blasters and 2 blast masters.
They have no transport, their job is to sit back and just blast. This is assuming they are standing still, and their poor victim is within 24".
The total cost is 264 points for 10 marines total.
GEQ : 56.3973064
MEQ : 23.56901263
TEQ : 7.575757576


This is what 10 plague marines with 2 PGs and 1 rhino look like.
GEQ : 33.5154827
MEQ : 15.13862805
TEQ : 9.431287917


The takeway is this. Noise marines tooled up have insanse DPP values!
Like other units with such high DPP values, they have big drawbacks. Their RPP values (resilience per point) is really low.
Another example are guard, which have great DPP values but really bad AoI values -- area of influence.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 xole wrote:
So I imagine if you wanted to actually break down the value of a unit, the things to categorize would be dakka per point, choppa per point, resiliency, and area of incluence?

I think troops have an element as well. If a model can score (or even contest) its worth more than a unit that can not.

I've been thinking that raw movement ability plays an element as well. One of the reasons people bring 3 eldar jetbikes is just so they can score late game. They have really good movement abilities, decent DPP and RPP values and they score. That makes eldar jetbikes exceptional units.

I have to admit looking at the data it certainly does break down the effectiveness of upgrades more than i thought.. even for unsavy maths users like me.. So thank you for that loving this article!
I still think the equation will always lack the ability to quantify AoI/ AoC correctly, and that It still needs an effective way to plot initiative value.. And use of templates.. But it still gives an excellent platform for appraisal,
Thanks lab mouse!!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come to think of it, could input in a request for
IG infantry squad vs veteran squad?

Strayan wrote:
Thanks lab mouse!!

Automatically Appended Next Post:
Come to think of it, could input in a request for
IG infantry squad vs veteran squad?

Hey man, glad the mathhammer is helping.

Check out the vets vs normal IG I did for Ailaros earlier in this thread. I covered the IG units on foot, vets vs normal, and then compared chimera vets vs the others. It was actually very surprising results.

Remember that a difference of 20% of DPP is siginificant. A difference of 50% or 100% is incredible.

Check out the 11th company podcast. If you like this kind of thinking, you will really dig the podcast.

How do you account for blast or template weapons?

From my personal experience. Blast weapons tend to hit 1.5 or 2 models.
Template weapons tend to hit 4 or 5 models.

If your shooting at GEQ, your probably going to get 2, as they are big. If your shooting at MEQ or TEQ, your probably going to get 1.5 on blast.

 labmouse42 wrote:
The biggest challenge to such a project is data entry. There are over 600 different units in the game, so building that database is daunting work.

If we have volunteers to enter those values -- about one volunteer for every army, then it would be very feasable.
All people would need to do is get a excel sheet mailed to them with the proper template and then fill it out and return it.

Any takers?

I'll do Tau in between my uni stuff if you send me the templates.

I'm about to start a thread on warp spiders and their upgrades and tactics, I could use the DPP for the exarch upgrades and fast shot if you don't mind

 labmouse42 wrote:

 Ailaros wrote:
Anyways, let's see lasguns. S3 Ap- rapid fire 5 points per model.

Yea, I'll do that for you..

5 point bolter warrior acolytes?

Great thread labmouse. I do have a request if you are still interested. I'm an ok player and I routinely use a squad of flash gitz. I have been expirimenting with them since 5th and I have come down to a 6 man squad including a painboy and the shootier and more dakka upgrades. I wouod like to see if dpp can explain which of the three upgrades can be taken to maximize their effectiveness vs all types. Obviously its a little different due to random ap so if it is too much to handle that's fine. Keep up the good work.

Unless I messed up his algorithm, 5 point acolytes with bolters look something like this. I'm assuming 12 figures in the unit

MEQ 16.666666
MEQ within 12" 33.333333
GEQ 66.666666
GEQ within 12" 133.3333333
TEQ 8.333333333
TEQ within 12" 16.66666667

Yea, 5 point bolt gun wielding models are awesome.
Remember, they are limited by their AoI, so you can't just throw a ton of them on the board and expect to get those results. Most simply wont be in range.
They also have weak armor, so they can be blown away quickly. Their RPP's are not that bad because they are cheap -- but you won't get awesome effects.

However, I could see a very strong case for bringing 5 of them in a 55 point chimera. 80 points for the entire package helps to address the AoI and RPP values dramatically.

Ally in 2 more guard vet chimeras and you can have 8 chimeras for under 800 points -- leaving you a lot of room to throw in 3 russ', a vendetta, a hellhound, etc...

Brilliant thread Lab, really enjoyed it.

Could you do 4x ML Long Fangs VS 4x Lascannons?
Would it be possible to adapt this VS vehicles or have you already done that?