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Believe it or not, most of the equipment in those photos and the general process (with a few additions) you outline are how you get contact lenses as well.

Great little photo-essay. Thanks.

Thanks for posting

Thanks Lego, always a pleasure to read your threads.

Exalted. Because this report was most excellently and exceptionally exaltational.

Excellent post Lego.
I was lucky enough to vist FN in Belgium who make Weapons and this post has brought back fond memories of that trip.

The information in your post was excellent and will be of great benifit to our community.

And yes HK is a fantastic city. Did you get to take a trip to the peak and enjoy the views?

An excellent post! That was a really cool look into the world of plastic crack manufacturing. Thanks Legoburner!

Thats the way to invest in Chinese production.

1. Choose Hong Kong
2. Own or part own the manufacturing plant.
3. Control production.

the alternate:

1. Dont choose Hong Kong
2. Be a client of a disinterested large scale plastics manufacturing complex.
3. Get shafted, a lot.

Except that there's no company doing wargame plastics in Hong Kong and probably none capable of such. WGF has clearly made a large investment to serve this market, and they'll only get better. Now if they can just catch up on their queue!

A very interesting read. Makes me feel a little bit.. (really little) better for buying all this GW plastic this year.

Neat read, thanks for posting.

I've heard that GW does all this in the UK - would that also help (to some degree, anyway!) to explain why their costs are higher? I can't recall where I heard this, so I'm not quite sure it's true...!

Anyone have any insight on how they go about things?

Knew the basics of production, but was great to see it all in order like that. <3 WGF, looking forward to more plastacrack goodness from them!

Very cool. Thank you

pancakeonions wrote:
Neat read, thanks for posting.

I've heard that GW does all this in the UK - would that also help (to some degree, anyway!) to explain why their costs are higher? I can't recall where I heard this, so I'm not quite sure it's true...!

Anyone have any insight on how they go about things?

GW do something very similar. They use the same software for sculpting digitally, but at least 1 year ago were still doing about 40% of their sculpting the traditional physical way (at 3-up), then scanning them in and cleaning them up on the computer. I am not sure if GW cut the tools in house or not - I know that they outsource the vast majority of their tool layout design at the very least. GW do have plastic injection moulding machines on site, and therefore the tools go back to Nottingham and the plastic is produced and packaged there.

The major inflexible costs are sculpting, the sculpting software (5 figures per machine and multiple thousands per year 'service' contract), tooling engineers and raw materials. Only the people would be more expensive for GW, the rest would be the same.as elsewhere, and if they outsource the tooling engineering to China, that just means that they have higher sculpting prices and that is all. Running the machines is a negligible difference compared to the US or China as shipping expenses more than make up the difference in electricity and maintenance prices at the volume GW operate from my understanding.

On the subject of GW plastic process. I've seen pictures of the new marine kits now and they look massively improved. Crisper, cleaner and generally a prettier surface. Any idea what changed? I'm wondering whether they have improved the machinery, material, the designs or the process? Maybe it's a mix.

What an awesome trip!

This is a great trip report and a lot of good info.

I'm just wondering - what was the plastic the Starship Troopers models were made of? ABS?

It's interesting to see how Kingdom Death is already doing sprues after just one kickstarter, yet established games like Battletech and Infinity are still using metals. Battletech probably because IWM has the license, but the Infinity starter boxes and TAGs should really be plastic.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

We've heard from Corvus Belli that they won't go plastic as they want to keep production in Spain - they're an example of a Spanish business doing well in trying times, and I think they're conscious of that.

Also think probably at least 80% of the current range wouldn't be reproducible in plastic without sacrificing the level of detail.

 Pacific wrote:
We've heard from Corvus Belli that they won't go plastic as they want to keep production in Spain - they're an example of a Spanish business doing well in trying times, and I think they're conscious of that.

Also think probably at least 80% of the current range wouldn't be reproducible in plastic without sacrificing the level of detail.

It's not a question of "keeping production in Spain" but rather that they want to keep the production entirely within their control.

Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.

What about Renedra? They are constantly booked and cannot do any more orders. They produce all Perry plastics, all Warlord Games and many many more.

 RiTides wrote:
Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.

You're right, the guy that just came back from reporting on stuff being made in China, told me it was impossible to make stuff in China.

And apparently so are you.

I guess this whole "China boom" is imaginary.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

RoninXiC wrote:
What about Renedra? They are constantly booked and cannot do any more orders. They produce all Perry plastics, all Warlord Games and many many more.

Aye. And they're basically all ex-GW plastics manufacturers. If there's anyone else out there who can do as good a job as GW, it's them.

http://www.renedra.co.uk/history.html

 RiTides wrote:
Chris, I think you need to reread Lego's post. Making tooling for plastic injection molding wargaming figures is extremely challenging. There are 2 companies consistently making polystyrene wargaming models right now, in the World! Games Workshop, and now Wargames Factory.

Dropzone Commander I believe was able to use a different company for their 2-player starter, as was Avatars of War for their few plastic kits. But, it's really hard to get right!

Also, these are all for sets. It does not lend itself as well to single model skirmish games like Infinity. Most games of that type will be metal or resin for a long time.

The hard to get right is a bit of a misstatement. There is a learning curve to making small plastic parts, but most of that curve has been well documented so that a competent engineer can deal with it straight away. Designers also need to understand the limitations and caveats of the material, but they arent that difficult to grasp.

The big issue with plastic manufacturing is still the higher cost of entry. Companies have to invest a fair amount up front for a slow return on the backend. It is definately a long game if you are using your own money, but Kickstarter helps sort that. The same techniques, tools and machines are used to make Reaper's Bones, Brick Arms LEGO accessories, B-Club's accessories and even things like the servo arm for my R/C toys. Amount of time spent on the mold and fine detailing vary from manufacturer to manufacturer and purpose. Different materials have different limitations and benefits. For example, the companies which have chosen PVC as their plastic of choice (Reaper for example) gain the ability of having small undercuts on their molds, but they sacrifice some rigidity in the plastic. The molds are still cut from same steel blanks and they are then ran on the same injection machines that are used for ABS or HIPS.

If you get a chance, there are several videos on YouTube which take you through Tamiya's process, and although the end user is not normally a wargamer (though I know a bunch of 1/48 WWII gamers who use Tamiya kits) the processes and techniques apply to gaming plastics just as well as to fine scale models.

 Sean_OBrien wrote:
The hard to get right is a bit of a misstatement. There is a learning curve to making small plastic parts, but most of that curve has been well documented so that a competent engineer can deal with it straight away. Designers also need to understand the limitations and caveats of the material, but they arent that difficult to grasp.

As an engineer currently designing parts for plastic molding... suffice to say, that I disagree with your disagreement

I think what Wargames Factory is doing is amazing, and I just don't think people should minimize the challenges involved in this process is all that I meant (kidding aside). And I completely agree with you that the largest barrier to entry is still the high initial cost of the molds.

 chris_valera wrote:
Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Again, Corvus Belli is refusing to go plastic because they do not have the in-house capability.
They do not want to expand to the point where they might be forced to go public.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 chris_valera wrote:
Games Workshop seems to manage good detail with their Dark Vengeance figures. They could try doing a few special edition figures, and see if the fans would accept it in exchange for lower prices.

And nothing says it has to be done in China, plastic sprues can be fabricated in Spain as well. Or fabricated in China, then flown back to Spain for production.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Again, Corvus Belli is refusing to go plastic because they do not have the in-house capability.
They do not want to expand to the point where they might be forced to go public.

Oh okay, I see it now. They don't want to take on the debt. Fair enough. But there's nothing wrong with a kickstarter. I still say making starter boxes and big models like TAGs in plastic would be a big boost to the company and getting people into the game.

I did just see a video of the Infinity office and it looks very large, and very professional. I was surprised they had so many people working for them.

--Chris
www.chrisvalera.com

Actually, they do not want to take quality control of their hands, plus the debt, not suitable medium for what they do ectr ectr.

I like the metals CB does personally... I would not however mind some of the larger models, the werewolves for Adriana in particular being resin >.> that was a son of a gun to get assembled.

 Casey's Law wrote:
On the subject of GW plastic process. I've seen pictures of the new marine kits now and they look massively improved. Crisper, cleaner and generally a prettier surface. Any idea what changed? I'm wondering whether they have improved the machinery, material, the designs or the process? Maybe it's a mix.

Just reposting this. Has anyone got any info on the subject?