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2013/09/30 22:18:42
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
Not really. Its just a case of the Rs saying "which thing do you want more?"
Its perfectly valid, especially after the Dems refusal to compromise on Obamacare itself.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
they also lost seats in the house and helped Clinton hold the White House, which was by no means assured in 1995.
Eh... that's debatable. Clinton wasn't going to lose... ever. *shrugs*
But pointing out that Republican lost oh so much because of the '95 shutdown (which, Clinton eventually relented) is a bit disingenuous. That's all I'm saying. At the very worst, it was a "push".
When you're playing to not lose, a push is as good as a win.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:19:43
2013/09/30 22:19:49
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
Are we really going to make that argument?
Neither side has to rubber stamp the other. But, in this case, one side is tying something vaguly important (funding the government) to something pretty much unrelated (obamacare).
Yeah... I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
The current mechanism of pass laws/CR/Omnibus bills sucks donkey balls. But, unfortunately, that's how it's played.
Do I wish it's done differently? feth yeah!
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:20:31
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
2013/09/30 22:22:01
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
If you cant see the difference I can't help you.
Self-proclaimed evil Cat-person. Dues Ex Felines
Cato Sicarius, after force feeding Captain Ventris a copy of the Codex Astartes for having the audacity to play Deathwatch, chokes to death on his own D-baggery after finding Calgar assembling his new Eldar army.
The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
Are we really going to make that argument?
Neither side has to rubber stamp the other. But, in this case, one side is tying something vaguly important (funding the government) to something pretty much unrelated (obamacare).
Yeah... I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
The current mechanism of pass laws/CR/Omnibus bills sucks donkey balls. But, unfortunately, that's how it's played.
Do I wish it's done differently? feth yeah!
If you recall, this is not how the ACA was passed.
Grey Templar wrote: Not really. Its just a case of the Rs saying "which thing do you want more?"
Its perfectly valid, especially after the Dems refusal to compromise on Obamacare itself.
It's also perfectly valid for the Dems to use the GOPs tactics against them.
Yes indeedy. Never play a game of Russian Roulette with a guy who wants to add more bullets.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/30 22:25:06
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
Man D... ultimate strawmanning here...
Hey... I can play that too.
Obama would rather negotiate with the Iranian government, than to negotiate with Republicans at home. Because, you guys... he would rather not negotiate with people who strap bombs on their chests. Because... Republicans you guys! Ew!
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:25:11
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
If you cant see the difference I can't help you.
You don't need to help me. I am enjoying the fact that the Tea Party might actually think their plan will work and push for the shutdown. And maybe after that we will get a functioning non-radicalized Republican Party back.
2013/09/30 22:25:59
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
whembly wrote: The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
The GOP handed the Senate an ultimatum and told the press it was a compromise. Folks like you believed them, apparently.
Apparently you believe the D's can do no wrong... apparently.
It's all fethed up dude... I'm not totally happy what the R's are doing. But, be honest... what. the. feth. are. the. democrats. doing?
Advancing their actual policy agenda. The democrats want expanded health care, and they're protecting a law that will do that.
the GOP wants to win. They might think the ACA is bad, but we know for a fact that they hate it and want to beat the president on it. American's aren't stupid. We might be fat, lazy, and ignorant, but we know a grudge when we see it. And that's what's going to sink the GOP.
This is about winning. If it was about health care, they'd have their own plan as an alternative to vote on.
2013/09/30 22:26:47
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
Man D... ultimate strawmanning here...
Hey... I can play that too.
Obama would rather negotiate with the Iranian government, than to negotiate with Republicans at home. Because, you guys... he would rather not negotiate with people who strap bombs on their chests. Because... Republicans you guys! Ew!
Yet according to you guys the guy with the bomb has the high road and if he sets it off it's the fault of the people that didn't give him what he wants.
2013/09/30 22:27:40
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
Are we really going to make that argument?
Neither side has to rubber stamp the other. But, in this case, one side is tying something vaguly important (funding the government) to something pretty much unrelated (obamacare).
Yeah... I wholeheartedly agree with you there.
The current mechanism of pass laws/CR/Omnibus bills sucks donkey balls. But, unfortunately, that's how it's played.
Do I wish it's done differently? feth yeah!
If you recall, this is not how the ACA was passed.
nah... not the same dude.
To whit: wiki: The Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act consists of a combination of measures to control healthcare costs, and an expansion of coverage through public and private insurance: broader Medicaid eligibility and Medicare coverage, and subsidized, regulated private insurance. It's an Omnibus of gak ton laws. Plus a whole slew of Education stuff too.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:28:05
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:29:16
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
whembly wrote: The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
The GOP handed the Senate an ultimatum and told the press it was a compromise. Folks like you believed them, apparently.
Apparently you believe the D's can do no wrong... apparently.
It's all fethed up dude... I'm not totally happy what the R's are doing. But, be honest... what. the. feth. are. the. democrats. doing?
Advancing their actual policy agenda. The democrats want expanded health care, and they're protecting a law that will do that.
the GOP wants to win. They might think the ACA is bad, but we know for a fact that they hate it and want to beat the president on it. American's aren't stupid. We might be fat, lazy, and ignorant, but we know a grudge when we see it. And that's what's going to sink the GOP.
This is about winning. If it was about health care, they'd have their own plan as an alternative to vote on.
They pass numerous repeal / replace laws.
As far as which teams want to win? They both do... not because of altruistic reasons, but they BOTH want to win.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Polonius wrote: but the ACA wasn't a rider attached to a highway bill. Sure, other stuff was added, but a vote for or against the ACA was about the ACA.
True. You gotta point.
How many Republicans voted for it? Oh...right. None. So it's perfect for everyone...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:30:42
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:32:04
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
whembly wrote: The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
The GOP handed the Senate an ultimatum and told the press it was a compromise. Folks like you believed them, apparently.
Apparently you believe the D's can do no wrong... apparently.
It's all fethed up dude... I'm not totally happy what the R's are doing. But, be honest... what. the. feth. are. the. democrats. doing?
Advancing their actual policy agenda. The democrats want expanded health care, and they're protecting a law that will do that.
the GOP wants to win. They might think the ACA is bad, but we know for a fact that they hate it and want to beat the president on it. American's aren't stupid. We might be fat, lazy, and ignorant, but we know a grudge when we see it. And that's what's going to sink the GOP.
This is about winning. If it was about health care, they'd have their own plan as an alternative to vote on.
They pass numerous repeal / replace laws.
As far as which teams want to win? They both do... not because of altruistic reasons, but they BOTH want to win.
They do, but one side wants to win, and as a neat side effect, get millions of people health care. The other wants to win to... I dunno, keep taxes low?
You can argue that the ACA is a lot of things, but it's also substance: it really does help people. That's the difference, and what's lost in the debate, but not with the voters: one side is still trying to help people, in a way.
2013/09/30 22:32:11
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
Man D... ultimate strawmanning here...
Hey... I can play that too.
Obama would rather negotiate with the Iranian government, than to negotiate with Republicans at home. Because, you guys... he would rather not negotiate with people who strap bombs on their chests. Because... Republicans you guys! Ew!
Yet according to you guys the guy with the bomb has the high road and if he sets it off it's the fault of the people that didn't give him what he wants.
How on this planet do you come up with that?
o.O
Great... D thinks those who wants ACA repealed are terrorist.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:32:59
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: And maybe after that we will get a functioning non-radicalized Republican Party back.
This is, I think, the least likely thing to happen. Failure clearly does not dissuade libertarians. We're talking about a group looking forward to the apocalypse.
Our country honestly needs an effective opposition party. If the GOP keeps self-destructing, I'm afraid that the Democratic establishment will become even more oligarchic. I mean, George W. Bush only dreamed of doing half of what Obama has when it comes to domestic intelligence and hawkishness abroad. He's pretty damn cozy with Wallstreet, too. But you look across the aisle and there's nothing serious going on, no meaningful opposition. You get a guy putting down 47% of Americans. You get a party constantly threatening to shut down the government because of it's complete incapacity for governance.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:48:54
d-usa wrote: And maybe after that we will get a functioning non-radicalized Republican Party back.
This is, I think, the least likely thing to happen. Failure clearly does not dissuade libertarians. We're talking about a group looking forward to the apocalypse.
and virtually all representatives are more worried about getting outflanked in a primary than seriously challenged in the general election. The guys that lose won't lose to moderates from the opposition: they'll lose to extremists.
2013/09/30 22:35:09
Subject: Re:Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
whembly wrote: The current mechanism of pass laws/CR/Omnibus bills sucks donkey balls. But, unfortunately, that's how it's played.
Do I wish it's done differently? feth yeah!
If you recall, this is not how the ACA was passed.
nah... not the same dude
No, it's the same. There was a controversial bill with the Congress divided completely on partisan lines. The Democrats did not tell the Republicans, pass the ACA or we will shut down the government.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:38:27
whembly wrote: The GOP House PASSED several CR... what branch/party is NOT agreeing to terms again?
The GOP handed the Senate an ultimatum and told the press it was a compromise. Folks like you believed them, apparently.
Apparently you believe the D's can do no wrong... apparently.
It's all fethed up dude... I'm not totally happy what the R's are doing. But, be honest... what. the. feth. are. the. democrats. doing?
Advancing their actual policy agenda. The democrats want expanded health care, and they're protecting a law that will do that.
the GOP wants to win. They might think the ACA is bad, but we know for a fact that they hate it and want to beat the president on it. American's aren't stupid. We might be fat, lazy, and ignorant, but we know a grudge when we see it. And that's what's going to sink the GOP.
This is about winning. If it was about health care, they'd have their own plan as an alternative to vote on.
They pass numerous repeal / replace laws.
As far as which teams want to win? They both do... not because of altruistic reasons, but they BOTH want to win.
They do, but one side wants to win, and as a neat side effect, get millions of people health care. The other wants to win to... I dunno, keep taxes low?
You can argue that the ACA is a lot of things, but it's also substance: it really does help people. That's the difference, and what's lost in the debate, but not with the voters: one side is still trying to help people, in a way.
Opponents beg to differ if it truly does help people.
These are some of the things that are being objected:
- Increase the deficit
- Leave 30 million Americans uninsured
- Will increase premiums
- Force Americans off their plans
- Cost millions of jobs
- Cost trillions
- Cover abortion
- Allow thousands of federal employers access to private information
- Give the IRS new powers
This isn't some scary boogyman stuff... these are real tangible issues.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2013/09/30 22:36:58
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: I am now sad that according to the definition of negotiating and blame, the US was directly responsible for holding all these Americans hostage in Iran all those years back.
Those poor Iranians gave us terms, they would have let us have them back if only we did what they wanted.
But the United States refused to negotiate, everything that happened to the hostages is their fault...
Man D... ultimate strawmanning here...
Hey... I can play that too.
Obama would rather negotiate with the Iranian government, than to negotiate with Republicans at home. Because, you guys... he would rather not negotiate with people who strap bombs on their chests. Because... Republicans you guys! Ew!
Yet according to you guys the guy with the bomb has the high road and if he sets it off it's the fault of the people that didn't give him what he wants.
How on this planet do you come up with that?
o.O
Great... D thinks those who wants ACA repealed are terrorist.
Because that is clearly what I said.
If you are going I say stupid gak like that you guys can have this thread for your enjoyment.
I'll have my popcorn ready to watch the GOP try to spin this.
2013/09/30 22:37:07
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
d-usa wrote: And maybe after that we will get a functioning non-radicalized Republican Party back.
This is, I think, the least likely thing to happen. Failure clearly does not dissuade libertarians. We're talking about a group looking forward to the apocalypse.
and virtually all representatives are more worried about getting outflanked in a primary than seriously challenged in the general election. The guys that lose won't lose to moderates from the opposition: they'll lose to extremists.
Agreed.
ON the flip side its almost a snore - someone wake me when the party starts again. SUpposedly this is the first shutdown in years but it feels like days. Maybe all that sequester gloom and doom nonsense jaded me.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2013/09/30 22:37:19
Subject: Republicans Claim Democrats "Unwilling To Negotiate" Over Legislation Passed In 2009
Polonius wrote: and virtually all representatives are more worried about getting outflanked in a primary than seriously challenged in the general election. The guys that lose won't lose to moderates from the opposition: they'll lose to extremists.
Excellent point. The GOP is its own worst enemy, structurally. They might be able to win the White House if they could dispense with their primaries. Just think of how they had to strong arm Ron Paul out of the running last time and even so they best they could muster was Romney, who proceeded to say half of all Americans are good-for-nothing.
whembly wrote: The current mechanism of pass laws/CR/Omnibus bills sucks donkey balls. But, unfortunately, that's how it's played.
Do I wish it's done differently? feth yeah!
If you recall, this is not how the ACA was passed.
nah... not the same dude
No, it's the same. There was a controversial bill with the Congress divided completely on partisan lines. The Democrats did not tell the Republicans, pass the ACA or we will shut down the government.
Republicans couldn't shut it down. The Democrats completely controlled both house and the Presidency.
And again... who's shutting down the government again? The HOUSE were duly elected too...
Edit: dakka is being weird here... o.O
This message was edited 4 times. Last update was at 2013/09/30 22:38:22
