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xruslanx wrote:

Oh okay. He was only asking me for data on illegal immigrants.

Data...on illegal immigrants.

Yep, that's almost exactly what he was asking for, he was asking for you to support your argument. If your support is to go "well no data exists for that" then you can't support your argument, meaning we can just ignore your point and move on, until you come up with something actually backing it up, beyond anecdotal stories. I'm sure someone else could chime in "I knew 10 guys who tried to come over on a plane but got in trouble and then had to go back" or something, and it'd be just as valid as "oh I work with some people who did it therefore its super easy"

 motyak wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

Oh okay. He was only asking me for data on illegal immigrants.

Data...on illegal immigrants.

Yep, that's almost exactly what he was asking for, he was asking for you to support your argument. If your support is to go "well no data exists for that" then you can't support your argument, meaning we can just ignore your point and move on, until you come up with something actually backing it up, beyond anecdotal stories. I'm sure someone else could chime in "I knew 10 guys who tried to come over on a plane but got in trouble and then had to go back" or something, and it'd be just as valid as "oh I work with some people who did it therefore its super easy"

Well you might be living in some bizarre alternate universe where your entire life is one big science paper, but you don't speak for all of dakka.

xruslanx wrote:

Well you might be living in some bizarre alternate universe where your entire life is one big science paper,

You wouldn't be far off

xruslanx wrote:
but you don't speak for all of dakka.

Not all of dakka no. But I like to think that the part that dislikes anecdotal evidence being used as the sole means of support for arguments, would back up someone asking for more evidence. Especially when these anecdotes are coming from a poster who has made some frankly hilarious comments in the past to support his positions.

edit: those quotes, and that last sentence was a monster

Sigh. You're defining what I said as a scientific argument when it is not. That means you are not supposed to apply scientific rules to it.

You have no right to demand data or evidence for a non-scientific viewpoint, as big and clever as it might make you look on the internet. I have discussions and debates with my friends all the time, I don't think any of them has ever gone "LOL EVIDENCE PLS". Any my friends are (mostly) programmers before you make some nasty assertion about the company I keep.

xruslanx wrote:
Sigh. You're defining what I said as a scientific argument when it is not. That means you are not supposed to apply scientific rules to it.

You have no right to demand data or evidence for a non-scientific viewpoint, as big and clever as it might make you look on the internet. I have discussions and debates with my friends all the time, I don't think any of them has ever gone "LOL EVIDENCE PLS". Any my friends are (mostly) programmers before you make some nasty assertion about the company I keep.

I haven't made any baseless nasty assertions yet, I don't know why you'd think I'd start to. And I'm not turning it into a scientific argument, something having data or being supported by that doesn't automatically make it a 'scientific argument'. The league team that I follow has the most premierships out of any club in the history of the NRL. I'd say that makes them the greatest team ever. They haven't won one since the 70s. That leads my mates to say that they are the worst team ever.

Are either of us correct? No (well, I am).

Have we turned it into a scientific argument? No.

Have we used data to back up our arguments? Yes.

That is all I, and Yod, asking you to do. Back it up with some kind of data beyond anecdotal evidence.

What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

 dæl wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

It's always nice to wake up and find some generous soul has saved you the bother of doing some work yourself, thanks to you and motyak for having that braincell-eradicating argument so I didn't have to

xruslanx wrote:

 motyak wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Yodhrin wrote:

xruslanx wrote:
Good. Emigrating to the UK illegally is as difficult as booking a plane ticket, it'd be nice if the laws we had in place were actually enforced.

Care to back that assertion up?

There's nothing to back up really. If you want to illegally emigrate here from Pakistan all you do is get a plane to the UK and rent a house from your cousin once you're here.

See, again, you're going to have to back that up. You can't just make an assertion, then when asked to support that assertion with some evidence, make another assertion.

This is why arguing with people on the internet is stupid. You are insisting that I take a plane journey from pakistan to england just to prove a point.

To be fair it's not as bad as on another forum where i was asked to examine every single year of history from the 14th century to the 19th.

It sounded like he wanted you to provide some sort of statistical evidence actually, about how that is a common way for illegal immigrants to arrive. I can't see anywhere he told you to take a plane trip etc. But providing stats and actually trying to honestly counter his argument is probably like having sex with animals.

Oh okay. He was only asking me for data on illegal immigrants.

Data...on illegal immigrants.



For what it's worth I work with dozens of guys who just got on a plane over here and don't know or care what a visa is. But personal experience is irrelevent in the face of (deep breath) EVIDENCE. No, I have no data on illegal immigrants. If I did, they wouldn't be illegal...

Without any data it is difficult to make a convincing argument. The thing is, there is data on illegal imigrants, so if you don't want to discuss it, you look like you are just ranting.

 dæl wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

So because Pakistanis require a visa, illegal immigration isn't a problem? Nice leap there.

xruslanx wrote:

 dæl wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

So because Pakistanis require a visa, illegal immigration isn't a problem? Nice leap there.

No, his point is that you, once again, are talking about matter that you know absolutely nothing about and sprouting your unfounded opinions around like they are facts.

But I'm guessing that for you having to actually educate yourself about a different subject would be very much like having sex with non-humans so its understandable...

 dæl wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

Okay.

Didn't a bunch of Border Agency folks get fired fairly recently over visas being handed out like candy and designating certain times of year to just not bother enforcing the laws and such?

 Seaward wrote:

 dæl wrote:

xruslanx wrote:

 Seaward wrote:
What are the barriers to entry if I were to fly from Islamabad to London?

None. You might have to tell an official that you're just visiting, but that's it. There is no border control in the UK, and you can see why in the OP - any attempt to stop *already illegal immigration* is dismissed as fascistic and, probably, racist.

Right, you have just proven that you don't know what you are talking about. Pakistani nationals require a visa to come to the UK, even for a visit. Also, of course there is a border control, it is called the UK Border Agency. From this I am going to apply the principle of falsum in uno, falsum in omnibus, meaning if you are speaking falsehoods in this statement, then you can't really be trusted on the others you made.

Okay.

Didn't a bunch of Border Agency folks get fired fairly recently over visas being handed out like candy and designating certain times of year to just not bother enforcing the laws and such?

Wasn't that in Canada?

The Border Agency got canned some months back for general uselessness over a period of years. Their role has in theory been taken over by the new National Crime Agency, however everything to do with immigration is still being done under the banner of UKBA as far as I can see.

There are a lot of critical news reports on the BBC about it all.

Have you any more information on this? I know that back in March the UKBA was split and the Border Force took over the role of immigration law enforcement, but haven't heard anything about the NCA taking over any of their responsibilities.

Nope, nothing anti-foreigner and/or incompetent about this Home Office at all, it's all about border security.

Seriously, first they hire vans plastered in "go home" adverts to drive around areas with large minority populations, now they're casting such a wide net they're sending British citizens text messages telling them they're not entitled to be here and to leave if said citizens happen to be a shade of brown.

Not sure if its come up yet, but why not ban all immigration?

 master of ordinance wrote:
Not sure if its come up yet, but why not ban all immigration?

It would stifle economic growth as we have an ageing population and a massive shortage of skills, especially in science, engineering and the NHS.

 dæl wrote:

 master of ordinance wrote:
Not sure if its come up yet, but why not ban all immigration?

It would stifle economic growth as we have an ageing population and a massive shortage of skills, especially in science, engineering and the NHS.

I was joking

I've actually had that idea for a while. Ban all immigration and when society starts collapsing because we don't have enough working people, tell the xenophobes "see, I told you so!" and then go back to having immigration. It obviously wouldn't work, since starting the collapse of society on purpose is crazy.