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2013/10/21 11:21:31
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Longtime Dakkanaut
Macclesfield, UK
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ajsnips44 wrote:Does a riptide have to have a drone in order for a commander to join it? I'm pretty sure it doesn't need a drone but my friend keeps arguing with me about it. Here's the rule in question.... Pg. 39 of rulebook under Independent Characters "They cannot however, join vehicle squadrons (see page.77) or units that always consist of a single model (such as most vehicles an monstrous creatures)" I see this as meaning a unit that always consists of a single model and never has a chance of being two models ever, no matter the list or options in the codex cannot be joined, but a riptide that has the options to increase the unit size with drones and isn't always a single model list to list can be joined by a character. My friend's argument is that the rule is on a case to case basis, or list to list basis. If the riptide is a single model in a specific game it cannot be joined, but if it is a riptide and a drone in the next game, it can be joined. Whats the verdict here?
Your interpretation is correct. Otherwise Tyranids would have a hard time making lists. Automatically Appended Next Post:  DJGietzen wrote: Kommissar Kel wrote:
An IC joined to a unit is no longer a unit on his own(to ay otherwise would allow for the targeting of just the IC "Unit")
This is an assumption, a perfectly reasonable assumption but an assumption none the less. That is what I'm focusing on.
Strictly speaking something being a member of group A does not necessarily preclude it from being a member of group B. All GW has done is make him a member of the unit he has joined. Strictly speaking he is now a member of two units.
The targeting problem is a real problem, sure but RAW you would be correct, you should be able to target the IC even after he has joined a unit, I don't think any one will say that RAI this was what GW was going for but is an unfortunate accident because they did not tell us he stops being his own unit. If a unit containing an IC is destroyed then two units are destroyed, if a unit containing an IC is put in reserves is two units put in reserves. These are contradictory to the assumption that the IC is no longer a unit on his own.
The BRB under the Independent Character rules states that when an IC joins a unit he becomes a part of that unit for all rules purposes. Automatically Appended Next Post:  Happyjew wrote:Fragile wrote:rigeld2 wrote:Purge the Alien doesn't count VPs until the end of the game, meaning the IC cannot be part of a unit (other than his own) at that time.
Please find a definition of unit in the rules that allows permission for 2 units in one. If you can't find one you don't have permission to consider him his own unit.
So would a DE unit that managed to shoot, snipe, etc the IC out of the unit, get a power from pain token for destroying the IC ?
Yes he would, because the FAQ says so:
Q: Do you gain a pain token for each independent character you kill,
even if he is in a unit? (p25)
A: Yes, as long as he still counts as an independent character.
What does this mean for Sanguinary Priests? You can take one Elite slot with 3 of them and they all have independent character. Does this mean 3 extra power from pain tokens that are up for grabs?
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This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2013/10/21 11:49:14
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2013/10/21 15:19:04
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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 DarthOvious wrote:What does this mean for Sanguinary Priests? You can take one Elite slot with 3 of them and they all have independent character. Does this mean 3 extra power from pain tokens that are up for grabs?
Yes, as each one is its own unit. Think of it like an Infantry Platoon. One slot, multiple units.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/21 16:10:11
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Regular Dakkanaut
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Thank you everyone that voted on the poll and for giving your opinions. In the end it doesn't matter if the TO of the tournament isn't allowing it.
"Until an faq I am going ro say no. The taudex states counts as . Plus if the drones are killed does that force the hq to leave the Riptide. It is not addressed. So my ruling is no barring an FAQ at this time."
I understand waiting for an FAQ and not wanting to start a debate at the event, but his rendering of the Tau rules for drones and why it wouldn't work in his opinion, leaves me scratching my head and thinking wtf is he talking about? In the end, what is is the difference between counts as or acts as and is the same, when the next line is for all purposes? Horrible reasoning in my mind....
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 7000pts
 (In Progress)
"I don't need to hold a single objective to win any of the missions" -FlingitNow |
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2013/10/21 16:20:43
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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The Hive Mind
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Yeah - he's literally ignoring the actual rules and making them up on the spot. That's fine - it's his tournament. But he should acknowledge that.
This also means no Prime + Fex, etc. Ah well.
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My beautiful wife wrote:Trucks = Carnifex snack, Tanks = meals.
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2013/10/21 16:24:51
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Kelne
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Yeah he's changing the rules. Sad, but if he's the TO he can.
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2013/10/21 16:27:59
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Tea-Kettle of Blood
Adelaide, South Australia
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There's never going to be an FAQ because it's fairly obvious that you can, if he's going to be make up rules he should at least have the courage to say so, rather than pretending he's clearing up some imaginary ambiguity. Also, since his reasoning is based on what the Taudex says, what about a Prime joining a Carnifex brood?
While I realise TOs can make up whatever rules they want, I really wish they didn't and just stuck to making their own FAQ on actually ambiguous rules that GW hasn't cleared up yet.
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 16:30:15
 Ailaros wrote:You know what really bugs me? When my opponent, before they show up at the FLGS smears themselves in peanut butter and then makes blood sacrifices to Ashterai by slitting the throat of three male chickens and then smears the spatter pattern into the peanut butter to engrave sacred symbols into their chest and upper arms.
I have a peanut allergy. It's really inconsiderate.
"Long ago in a distant land, I, M'kar, the shape-shifting Master of Chaos, unleashed an unspeakable evil! But a foolish Grey Knight warrior wielding a magic sword stepped forth to oppose me. Before the final blow was struck, I tore open a portal in space and flung him into the Warp, where my evil is law! Now the fool seeks to return to real-space, and undo the evil that is Chaos!" |
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2013/10/21 20:48:34
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Powerful Phoenix Lord
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ajsnips44 wrote:"Until an faq I am going ro say no. The taudex states counts as . Plus if the drones are killed does that force the hq to leave the Riptide. It is not addressed. So my ruling is no barring an FAQ at this time."
So I guess by this logic an IC can never join a unit. What happens if an IC joins a squad of Fire Warriors and all but one are killed, does that force the IC to leave the Fire Warriors? It is not addressed.
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Greebo had spent an irritating two minutes in that box. Technically, a cat locked in a box may be alive or it may be dead. You never know until you look. In fact, the mere act of opening the box will determine the state of the cat, although in this case there were three determinate states the cat could be in: these being Alive, Dead, and Bloody Furious.
Orks always ride in single file to hide their strength and numbers.
Gozer the Gozerian, Gozer the Destructor, Volguus Zildrohar, Gozer the Traveler, and Lord of the Sebouillia |
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2013/10/21 21:31:00
Subject: Re:Commander joining riptide....?
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Lord Commander in a Plush Chair
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ajsnips44 wrote:Thank you everyone that voted on the poll and for giving your opinions. In the end it doesn't matter if the TO of the tournament isn't allowing it.
True the TO can make up any rules he wants(like if he finds ICs joining MCs in general too OP) "Until an faq I am going ro say no. The taudex states counts as . Plus if the drones are killed does that force the hq to leave the Riptide. It is not addressed. So my ruling is no barring an FAQ at this time."
Counts as is the same as Is. Having the drones at all is unnecessary to eligibility for joining; simply the fact that the unit can be purchased as more than 1 model. I understand waiting for an FAQ and not wanting to start a debate at the event, but his rendering of the Tau rules for drones and why it wouldn't work in his opinion, leaves me scratching my head and thinking wtf is he talking about? In the end, what is is the difference between counts as or acts as and is the same, when the next line is for all purposes? Horrible reasoning in my mind....
Again Count as = Is, it is the only way to read/apply Counts as that works. I kind of fear for your event, I personally stopped going to Local Tournies when my TO ruled That my opponents seer council could start in a dire avengers Wave Serpent, then assault out of said serpent after it turbo boosted(last edition but still all wrong, it was the mission that only let you start with 1 HQ and 2 Troops units on the table).
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/21 21:31:21
This is my Rulebook. There are many Like it, but this one is mine. Without me, my rulebook is useless. Without my rulebook, I am useless.
Stop looking for buzz words and start reading the whole sentences.
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2013/10/25 16:16:08
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Infiltrating Broodlord
New York
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DeathReaper's posts made my brain hurt...
As a long time tyranid player all i can say is 'Epic Fail' sir..
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1. Tyranids - 15,000 pts
2. Chaos Space Marines - 7,100 pts
3. Space Marines - 6,000 pts
4. Orks - 5,900 pts
5. Dark Angels - 4,300 pts
6. Necrons - 4,600 pts
7. Grey Knights - 3,200 pts
8. Eldar - 3,400 pts
9. Blood Angels - 3,200 pts
10. Chaos Daemons - 3,200 pts
11. Tau Empire - 3,000 pts
12. Space Wolves - 2,400 pts |
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2013/10/25 16:33:35
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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 Akaiyou wrote:DeathReaper's posts made my brain hurt...
As a long time tyranid player all i can say is 'Epic Fail' sir..
Do you have any rules to contribute?
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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2013/10/25 18:31:17
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Ultramarine Terminator with Assault Cannon
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WOW... This is still a thing?
Last I checked, rules apply to the models on the table not the codex verbiage.
Does the Riptide as it is on the table for the game at hand always consist of just itself? If yes, than no IC can join.
It's that simple.
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2013/10/25 18:36:28
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Nasty Nob on Warbike with Klaw
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 oni wrote:Last I checked, rules apply to the models on the table not the codex verbiage.
When did you last check? 10 years ago?
The Codex very much applies.
Could you point out where in the rulebook you got this idea from?
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This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2013/10/25 18:38:22
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2013/10/27 16:16:35
Subject: Commander joining riptide....?
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Captain of the Forlorn Hope
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oni wrote:Does the Riptide as it is on the table for the game at hand always consist of just itself? If yes, than no IC can join.
It's that simple.
Your statement is simple, and incorrect.
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"Did you notice a sign out in front of my chapel that said "Land Raider Storage"?" -High Chaplain Astorath the Grim Redeemer of the Lost.
I sold my soul to the devil and now the bastard is demanding a refund!
We do not have an attorney-client relationship. I am not your lawyer. The statements I make do not constitute legal advice. Any statements made by me are based upon the limited facts you have presented, and under the premise that you will consult with a local attorney. This is not an attempt to solicit business. This disclaimer is in addition to any disclaimers that this website has made.
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