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 Vaktathi wrote:
In theory, Escalation shouldn't have too many issues except two.

First, D weapons. Now, weapons on massive war machines should be ridiculously powerful, but as is, these weapons are not only incredibly powerful and can throw balance way out of whack, but they're somewhat stilted as well, being much more punitive to vehicles than to T-based models. A Land Raider lives 1/12 times it's hit (and gets an immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned result anyway on top of an HP loss), while a Grot get's off without a scratch twice as often (1/6th of the time), and something like a Carnifex lives (even if somewhat wounded) a majority of the time.

Second, the basic plastic superheavies are largely handled well, the stuff in the 400-700pt range. Outside of that, GW can't cost for squat and the larger Superheavy/Gargantuan creature stuff is easily capable of routinely facing 2-4x their points cost in opposing forces.

TL;DR if it sticks to stuff like Stompas and Baneblades, there really won't be any issues and it should be lots of fun (if you can deal with 3 Leman Russ tanks, you can deal with a Baneblade even easier). If stuff like Heirophants or Titans with multiple pie-plate unmodified D weapons start showing up, then it won't be so fun.

I am actually for D weapons in regular 40K as they are the only way to reliably counter all the 2++, riptide, serpents spam list out there. I like taking on units that are difficult to kill, especially when you manage to take one out. But when you start getting into 2++ rerollable units that are impossible to kill with conventional weapons I.E. everything. I see no problem with 2 D str shots a turn, as its either deal with a points expensive superheavy that can vaporize what ever is in it's line of sight, or deal with small fast moving deathstar that cannot be killed, that can destroy your army when it gets close.

I'd rather take on a big superheavy that can be killed or avoided with careful positioning as opposed to getting steamrolled or having most of the board denied due to not being able to takeout a unkillable deathstar.

Now if 2++ rerollable saves didnt exist then I would be against D weapons in non-apoc.

Jefffar wrote:

 agnosto wrote:
And thus we'll have rules for Dark Eldar and Tau Baneblades I suppose but DE have the Tanthalus let's see what superheavy my Tau have.... And GW misses yet another chance to get money from me by focusing completely on imperial armies.

Check out the Tigershark AX-10. Super heavy flyer with D strength Railguns.

Good point; I forgot about the tigershark. I'm no good with resin stuff though; neither the time nor the patience to soak stuff in hot water of use the wife's hairdryer to straighten this or that, heck I barely have time to play the occasional game.

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:

Mike712 wrote:

 Vaktathi wrote:
In theory, Escalation shouldn't have too many issues except two.
First, D weapons. Now, weapons on massive war machines should be ridiculously powerful, but as is, these weapons are not only incredibly powerful and can throw balance way out of whack, but they're somewhat stilted as well, being much more punitive to vehicles than to T-based models. A Land Raider lives 1/12 times it's hit (and gets an immobilized/weapon destroyed/stunned result anyway on top of an HP loss), while a Grot get's off without a scratch twice as often (1/6th of the time), and something like a Carnifex lives (even if somewhat wounded) a majority of the time.

Last I heard D weapons would automatically.

No, D6 roll.

1- no damage
2-5: take D3+3 wounds
6: take D6+6 wounds

If you aimed at 1 grot, something is amiss.

If you aimed at a bulk of grots, expect alot more 2-5 results, each killing 2-5 grots for each model under the template (thats how blast/template weapons work, you can kill more then you hit!)
In 6 models hit by S, you can expect on average of 25.5 wounds to be taken, enough to insta-gib pretty much anything other then MC, who are surprisingly rather fine with S compared to others, and have a good chance to survive a hit,

D3+3 wounds is a lot and is gauranteed to vaporise anything less than a Riptide/Wraithknight/Greater Daemon. Daemon Princes, Carnifex, Wraithlords, they all die like nothing.

Strength D makes the Swarmlord feel all sad on the inside.

It's actually D3+1, not D3+3 on a 2-5 result.

Very powerful obviously, but very stilted towards being favorable to T-based units (a unit of Tyranid Warriors or Ogryn for instance could still expect to have 30-40% of its models left on a 2-5 result, albeit at 1W each, while hitting a squadron of Leman Russ tanks would expect to have nothing left).

Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies. Sure that shadowsword will gib a screammerstar in pretty much one shot but if you are up against things like a swarm if nids or blobs of boyz you just payed 4-500 points for something an eradicator could do just as well, and that's kill a large blasts worth of light infantry.

I'm glad they are releasing this supplement I think it will rebalance the game and have an actual option of quality or quantity instead of just quality. D weapons will be like a nuclear deterent against 2++ things and huge deathstars but won't do much to hordes. I think this will cause a constantly changing meta based on influxes of different builds (2++ is on top? Take s D, Hordes on top? Take VoF, VoF on top? Take 2++ etc.) But that is assuming this will be implemented into at least a few tournaments (I plan on running one over at my FLGS with both new expansions if the rules are implemented in at least a semi workable way).

I'm sure that they will make sure the large uber titans of yore will stay in apoc like they should and only use the smaller minor super heavies by using some sort of FOC change to keep them in line but knowing GW anything could happen so I'm not getting my hopes up.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies. Sure that shadowsword will gib a screammerstar in pretty much one shot but if you are up against things like a swarm if nids or blobs of boyz you just payed 4-500 points for something an eradicator could do just as well, and that's kill a large blasts worth of light infantry.

I'm glad they are releasing this supplement I think it will rebalance the game and have an actual option of quality or quantity instead of just quality. D weapons will be like a nuclear deterent against 2++ things and huge deathstars but won't do much to hordes. I think this will cause a constantly changing meta based on influxes of different builds (2++ is on top? Take s D, Hordes on top? Take VoF, VoF on top? Take 2++ etc.) But that is assuming this will be implemented into at least a few tournaments (I plan on running one over at my FLGS with both new expansions if the rules are implemented in at least a semi workable way).

I'm sure that they will make sure the large uber titans of yore will stay in apoc like they should and only use the smaller minor super heavies by using some sort of FOC change to keep them in line but knowing GW anything could happen so I'm not getting my hopes up.

You're assuming that Large Blast is where the D blasts top out. If they get bigger, then hordes aren't a problem any more. And I can think of at least one existing super heavy with a 10" blast, the Cobra.

 A GumyBear wrote:
Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies. Sure that shadowsword will gib a screammerstar in pretty much one shot but if you are up against things like a swarm if nids or blobs of boyz you just payed 4-500 points for something an eradicator could do just as well, and that's kill a large blasts worth of light infantry.

I'm glad they are releasing this supplement I think it will rebalance the game and have an actual option of quality or quantity instead of just quality. D weapons will be like a nuclear deterent against 2++ things and huge deathstars but won't do much to hordes. I think this will cause a constantly changing meta based on influxes of different builds (2++ is on top? Take s D, Hordes on top? Take VoF, VoF on top? Take 2++ etc.) But that is assuming this will be implemented into at least a few tournaments (I plan on running one over at my FLGS with both new expansions if the rules are implemented in at least a semi workable way).

I'm sure that they will make sure the large uber titans of yore will stay in apoc like they should and only use the smaller minor super heavies by using some sort of FOC change to keep them in line but knowing GW anything could happen so I'm not getting my hopes up.

Many D weapons are large blast weapons (or bigger), and large blast weapons that ignore cover are usually pretty effective against horde units (which usually can't hurt the superheavy). Many superheavy vehicles get to toss out multiple D large blasts, or even larger, in addition to having other weaponry.

I personally think that this will be the least game breaking release of the year

 A GumyBear wrote:
Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies.

But what D-weapons do in a TAC list is let you go light on anti-tank/anti-deathstar elsewhere in your list and spend those points/FOC slots on powerful anti-horde units. You're only going to see a real drop in anti-horde firepower if you're facing tailored anti-horde armies that never had any dedicated anti-tank in the first place.

Plus, it's not like a Warhound is bad against hordes. Four large blasts (split between two targets if you want) that wound on a 2+, inflict multiple wounds, and don't allow any kind of defense is still going to kill a decent number of infantry models.

 Peregrine wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies.

But what D-weapons do in a TAC list is let you go light on anti-tank/anti-deathstar elsewhere in your list and spend those points/FOC slots on powerful anti-horde units. You're only going to see a real drop in anti-horde firepower if you're facing tailored anti-horde armies that never had any dedicated anti-tank in the first place.

Plus, it's not like a Warhound is bad against hordes. Four large blasts (split between two targets if you want) that wound on a 2+, inflict multiple wounds, and don't allow any kind of defense is still going to kill a decent number of infantry models.

I think people are also forgetting the fact that in close combat, Super heavy walkers aren't that bad when you consider that they stomp at the end (Which is just barraging large blast templates around themselves.)

But I have been overly harsh on my interpretation of what this supplement will be so far, I need to know what the limits will be. If they impose the 25% limit, you wouldn't see a Warhound in anything less then like 3K points.

 Peregrine wrote:

 A GumyBear wrote:
Sure D weapons are strong but they lack VoF so can easilly be made a moot point if you have a massed amount of bodies.

But what D-weapons do in a TAC list is let you go light on anti-tank/anti-deathstar elsewhere in your list and spend those points/FOC slots on powerful anti-horde units. You're only going to see a real drop in anti-horde firepower if you're facing tailored anti-horde armies that never had any dedicated anti-tank in the first place.

Plus, it's not like a Warhound is bad against hordes. Four large blasts (split between two targets if you want) that wound on a 2+, inflict multiple wounds, and don't allow any kind of defense is still going to kill a decent number of infantry models.

Point taken but I wrote that with the lords of war style foc in mind but if its similar to just adding an extra super heavy slot then yes this expansion will just be pointless broken cheese with double turbo warhounds and D spam running around everywhere if this expansion is used. I know eldar have great super heavies for taking D weapons but I'm not sure what things have access to great D weapons for low points games like 10" D blasts or multiple D Blasts. Feel free to add to this list of what has a D weapons for 500 or less points because I can only think of a few right now and can't remember what the eldar grav tanks costs are so off the top of my head the shadowsword for IG, and the cron pylon, probably the khorne lawn mowers CC weapon, eldar lynx(?) Is something that has a D weapon iirc for around 400ish points iirc.

Well, the transzendental C'tan can really do serious damage when equipped with the big flamer template. But he costs an apple and an egg, more thn 600 pts. The Stompa is even more expensive.

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the transzendental C'tan can really do serious damage when equipped with the big flamer template. But he costs an apple and an egg, more thn 600 pts. The Stompa is even more expensive.

Ya I know they are around 6-800 points and same goes for the tesseract vault so no silly D hellstorm templates unless you are playing around 3000 points

 A GumyBear wrote:

 wuestenfux wrote:
Well, the transzendental C'tan can really do serious damage when equipped with the big flamer template. But he costs an apple and an egg, more thn 600 pts. The Stompa is even more expensive.

Ya I know they are around 6-800 points and same goes for the tesseract vault so no silly D hellstorm templates unless you are playing around 3000 points

In fact, the D hellstorm template is really really nasty (the nastiest weapon in the game if you ask me) but the transcentental C'tan is not much more durable than the normal one.

Erm.... What's a "D" weapon exactly?

IIRC
D = Destroyer.
Hurts on a 2+, no saves, no invulnerables, no cover.
If someone shoots you with one, you have to hope they roll badly to wound.
There's other stuff, but thats the general gist.

Cheers

 PredaKhaine wrote:
IIRC
D = Destroyer.
Hurts on a 2+, no saves, no invulnerables, no cover.
If someone shoots you with one, you have to hope they roll badly to wound.
There's other stuff, but thats the general gist.

I don't own the rules for them, but aren't they also 4+ to penetrate a vehicle and some of them have giant sized blast templates?

Its auto pen on a vehicle (again iirc) and yep - the templates can be huge.

Would you believe the eldar cobra got nerfed and now 'only' has a 7" template. As opposed to the 10" one it used to have

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Its auto pen on a vehicle (again iirc) and yep - the templates can be huge.

Would you believe the eldar cobra got nerfed and now 'only' has a 7" template. As opposed to the 10" one it used to have

Wow.

I've said it elsewhere - I like Superheavies for the look of them in an army and just because they feel cool. But I think they're bad for the game. When you have something that is operating on an almost separate scale of damage to other units, it just marginalizes them enormously.

I have a cobra in the cupboard at home. I bought it because it looked cool and then never made/used it. Its gone up £10 or so since I bought it I've had it that long...
That thing also ignores titan void shields. Just because.

 PredaKhaine wrote:
Its auto pen on a vehicle (again iirc) and yep - the templates can be huge.

Would you believe the eldar cobra got nerfed and now 'only' has a 7" template. As opposed to the 10" one it used to have

It's better than autopen.

On a 1, it pens.

On a 2-5, it is automatic Explodes! with superheavies taking additional damage instead.

On a 6 it is as above, but with superheavies taking even more damage.

I'm all for Escalation, however, I doubt they will keep D weapons the same. There was already a hint that they may end up being S10 Ap1 in Escalation due to the leaked Stronghold Assault rules for vortex grenades. And D weapons are pretty useless vs. flyers.

Also, it makes no sense to have a cap as then there would be too few options to play.

Well, the Stompa and the KLOS have D weapons in cc. Ouch! I'm curious to see if the D weapons are kept as they are.

is there a 25% cap on the lord of war slot?
at 1850 that is 462.5 points.

not many d weapons in that range.
shadowsword which gives you 5" d weapon blast.

if there is a 25% cap on the lord of war i see no problems including these in events. it will deter some of the annoying 2++ rerollable armies.

D weapons with template of X size now in a regular game? This sort of thing makes me think that this is when they just need to revamp and re-release Epic Armageddon to do this the right way.
I know they wont make as much with the individual sculpts but if done well its like getting people to buy new armies and the terrain of proper epic scale as well.
Personally I and many others would welcome this move and buy it up big time. Bring back Epic Armageddon!