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 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yes, the way you try to defeat a social taboo is by grassroots resistance. That is what I am trying to foster. It's why it feels like discrimination - it's not something against which struggling is easy (like law is, because law has respect for argumentation).

Well.

I think you are going at it wrong.

I am fairly certain that you will overcome this Social Taboo far more often and far more easily, if you just ask if People are Happy with Forge World, rather than trying to fight some vain crusade of getting it on an some abstract "equal standard" with the Space Marines Codex by knowingly letting them run into the open knife of their own "social taboo" when you plop out those Forge World toys unannounced.

 Zweischneid wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:


Yes, the way you try to defeat a social taboo is by grassroots resistance. That is what I am trying to foster. It's why it feels like discrimination - it's not something against which struggling is easy (like law is, because law has respect for argumentation).

Well.

I think you are going at it wrong.

I am fairly certain that you will overcome this Social Taboo far more often and far more easily, if you just ask if People are Happy with Forge World, rather than try fight some vain crusade of getting it on an some abstract "equal standard" with the Space Marines Codex by knowingly letting them run into the open knife of their own "social taboo" when you plop out those Forge World toys unannounced.

I don't know if you saw my examples earlier, but I do ask them. I am a polite person in real life, and the only crusade is one I fight on the internet. I've even tried to be polite and understanding here, and if I haven't, I'm sorry.

I don't start these threads about FW, but I do post in them in an effort to sway people. People who are actually posting in the thread may not be swayed, but people doing google searches on Forge World officiality might stumble across the thread and it may be informative to them. So I have to give my reasons, and I respect that you give yours.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I disagree. I've said repeatedly, "if they have a good reason, then no problem." I won't force people to play with me if they don't know what the game is. But what bothers me is refusal to play without having a good reason.

Which is exactly my point. Who is the one deciding what a good reason is? I think it is absolutely obvious that if someone says no to you then this person has a reason that is good enough from his/her point of view.

And what would be the point of sharing this opinion with you? It is absolutely obvious too that it is not a good reason from your point of view.

That´s what happen with opinions.

 da001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

I disagree. I've said repeatedly, "if they have a good reason, then no problem." I won't force people to play with me if they don't know what the game is. But what bothers me is refusal to play without having a good reason.

Which is exactly my point. Who is the one deciding what a good reason is? I think it is absolutely obvious that if someone says no to you then this person has a reason that is good enough from his/her point of view.

And what would be the point of sharing this opinion with you? It is absolutely obvious too that it is not a good reason from your point of view.

That´s what happen with opinions.

I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

Oh boy, it's this gak again. Isn't this like the 75th or so thread on this subject now?

 Wilytank wrote:
Oh boy, it's this gak again. Isn't this like the 75th or so thread on this subject now?

It's a weekly tradition!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

So this are the three reasons you will not "approve".... then what?

And why should anyone give you their reasons?

Also, I like Forgeworld, but I refuse to play with overpowered stuff, no matter the source, because it is not fun to me (I find it boring)... so I am in point 2!!. What now?
1) You try to convince me of playing against an overpowered army.
2) We try to find another game.
3) We try to reach an agreement. I will accept that if you accept this.

 da001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

So this are the three reasons you will not "approve".... then what?

And why should anyone give you their reasons?

Also, I like Forgeworld, but I refuse to play with overpowered stuff, no matter the source, because it is not fun to me (I find it boring)... so I am in point 2!!. What now?
1) You try to convince me of playing against an overpowered army.
2) We try to find another game.
3) We try to reach an agreement. I will accept that if you accept this.

People should give me their reasons because it's part of normal polite discourse. If they don't have a reason, then they should do some serious introspection, as automatic, knee-jerk rejection of something is irrational.

So what I would say, then, is that you should actually try playing against Forge World. It is not overpowered. I would admit that some Forge World is overpowered, but a categorical refusal of all Forge World everything is an overreaction. So basically I would go with point 3 - try to come to an agreement about what rules from Forge World you would let me play!

 da001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

So this are the three reasons you will not "approve".... then what?

And why should anyone give you their reasons?

Also, I like Forgeworld, but I refuse to play with overpowered stuff, no matter the source, because it is not fun to me (I find it boring)... so I am in point 2!!. What now?
1) You try to convince me of playing against an overpowered army.
2) We try to find another game.
3) We try to reach an agreement. I will accept that if you accept this.

What if the FW model/s aren't "OP"? Will you play then?


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or what if it's a count-as like a contemptor dread as a normal dread?
I know of people who even play that

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Oh boy, it's this gak again. Isn't this like the 75th or so thread on this subject now?

It's a weekly tradition!

Silent, unbelievers!!!

This is not a "week". This is the week foreseen by the seers! The week when the Forgeworld argument will finally be resolved. This time we will settle it! The community will share a single opinion! A consensus will be reached! All dissidents will burn!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

So this are the three reasons you will not "approve".... then what?

And why should anyone give you their reasons?

Also, I like Forgeworld, but I refuse to play with overpowered stuff, no matter the source, because it is not fun to me (I find it boring)... so I am in point 2!!. What now?
1) You try to convince me of playing against an overpowered army.
2) We try to find another game.
3) We try to reach an agreement. I will accept that if you accept this.

People should give me their reasons because it's part of normal polite discourse. If they don't have a reason, then they should do some serious introspection, as automatic, knee-jerk rejection of something is irrational.

So what I would say, then, is that you should actually try playing against Forge World. It is not overpowered. I would admit that some Forge World is overpowered, but a categorical refusal of all Forge World everything is an overreaction. So basically I would go with point 3 - try to come to an agreement about what rules from Forge World you would let me play!

Not giving an explanation doesn´t mean that there is no explanation. A lot of people will refuse to explain their reasons because they don´t want to start an argument. What looks like a good reason to you is a bad reason to them, and vice-versa.

I accept point 3!!

From here on, it depends of your army.
1) If you are using overpowered stuff and the other player is tabled in turn 4, you just created a forgeworld hater: he will claim that all forgeworld is overpowered, refuse to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.
2) If you are using normal stuff and the game is fun for both, you just created a Forgeworld lover: he will claim that not all forgeworld is overpowered, accept to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.

The real problem Forgeworld has is the high number of WAAC players that ruin the game for others using that few overpowered units.

( Disclaimer: I know (and own) some units from Forgeworld. )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Brother Payne: of course I will play. I advocate Forgeworld, house rules and supplements. I am always eager to try new stuff.
And I really believe in count-as models. Even if it is a cheaper model, as long as it is clear what is what. Most models from FW are gorgeous.

I deeply dislike one-sided games though.

Do the people who won't play OP FW also refuse riptides, screamerstars and the likes that in "regular" codices?
If so fair enough. Otherwise that's just biased as hell

 da001 wrote:

Not giving an explanation doesn´t mean that there is no explanation. A lot of people will refuse to explain their reasons because they don´t want to start an argument. What looks like a good reason to you is a bad reason to them, and vice-versa.

I accept point 3!!

From here on, it depends of your army.
1) If you are using overpowered stuff and the other player is tabled in turn 4, you just created a forgeworld hater: he will claim that all forgeworld is overpowered, refuse to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.
2) If you are using normal stuff and the game is fun for both, you just created a Forgeworld lover: he will claim that not all forgeworld is overpowered, accept to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.

The real problem Forgeworld has is the high number of WAAC players that ruin the game for others using that few overpowered units.

( Disclaimer: I know (and own) some units from Forgeworld. )

I know that some people won't start an argument, but I think my thousands-of-dollars-and-days-of-time-spent-on-it-army deserves enough consideration that they should at least be friendly enough to tell my why they disapprove.

The second half I agree with. You're right, that a WAAC player who utilizes Forge World and smashes his opponent to bits unrelentingly is bad. But he's bad even if Forge World is disallowed! Which is why it's ok to decline a game if you believe I am using overpowered units. But if I am not using overpowered units, and you still decline because it's "overpowered," then we're going to have a problem. That's like declining every game with the Tau codex simply because a WAAC player beat you to hospitalization with his Riptide model.

EDIT: On the whole, we agree - one-sided games are stupid to play. It's why I accept reasons like "I didn't bring enough guns to kill your Armor 14 tanks" as valid reasons not to play me - I don't feel bad if that's the reason.

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Not giving an explanation doesn´t mean that there is no explanation. A lot of people will refuse to explain their reasons because they don´t want to start an argument. What looks like a good reason to you is a bad reason to them, and vice-versa.

I accept point 3!!

From here on, it depends of your army.
1) If you are using overpowered stuff and the other player is tabled in turn 4, you just created a forgeworld hater: he will claim that all forgeworld is overpowered, refuse to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.
2) If you are using normal stuff and the game is fun for both, you just created a Forgeworld lover: he will claim that not all forgeworld is overpowered, accept to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.

The real problem Forgeworld has is the high number of WAAC players that ruin the game for others using that few overpowered units.

( Disclaimer: I know (and own) some units from Forgeworld. )

I know that some people won't start an argument, but I think my thousands-of-dollars-and-days-of-time-spent-on-it-army deserves enough consideration that they should at least be friendly enough to tell my why they disapprove.

The second half I agree with. You're right, that a WAAC player who utilizes Forge World and smashes his opponent to bits unrelentingly is bad. But he's bad even if Forge World is disallowed! Which is why it's ok to decline a game if you believe I am using overpowered units. But if I am not using overpowered units, and you still decline because it's "overpowered," then we're going to have a problem. That's like declining every game with the Tau codex simply because a WAAC player beat you to hospitalization with his Riptide model.

EDIT: On the whole, we agree - one-sided games are stupid to play. It's why I accept reasons like "I didn't bring enough guns to kill your Armor 14 tanks" as valid reasons not to play me - I don't feel bad if that's the reason.

Pretty sure this is two people arguing for FW but against each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong but pretty sure

Brother Payne wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 da001 wrote:

Not giving an explanation doesn´t mean that there is no explanation. A lot of people will refuse to explain their reasons because they don´t want to start an argument. What looks like a good reason to you is a bad reason to them, and vice-versa.

I accept point 3!!

From here on, it depends of your army.
1) If you are using overpowered stuff and the other player is tabled in turn 4, you just created a forgeworld hater: he will claim that all forgeworld is overpowered, refuse to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.
2) If you are using normal stuff and the game is fun for both, you just created a Forgeworld lover: he will claim that not all forgeworld is overpowered, accept to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.

The real problem Forgeworld has is the high number of WAAC players that ruin the game for others using that few overpowered units.

( Disclaimer: I know (and own) some units from Forgeworld. )

I know that some people won't start an argument, but I think my thousands-of-dollars-and-days-of-time-spent-on-it-army deserves enough consideration that they should at least be friendly enough to tell my why they disapprove.

The second half I agree with. You're right, that a WAAC player who utilizes Forge World and smashes his opponent to bits unrelentingly is bad. But he's bad even if Forge World is disallowed! Which is why it's ok to decline a game if you believe I am using overpowered units. But if I am not using overpowered units, and you still decline because it's "overpowered," then we're going to have a problem. That's like declining every game with the Tau codex simply because a WAAC player beat you to hospitalization with his Riptide model.

EDIT: On the whole, we agree - one-sided games are stupid to play. It's why I accept reasons like "I didn't bring enough guns to kill your Armor 14 tanks" as valid reasons not to play me - I don't feel bad if that's the reason.

Pretty sure this is two people arguing for FW but against each other.
Correct me if I'm wrong but pretty sure

Could be. It's a valuable discussion though, imo, so I'm not going to back out just because we're both forgeworldites.

 da001 wrote:

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 Wilytank wrote:
Oh boy, it's this gak again. Isn't this like the 75th or so thread on this subject now?

It's a weekly tradition!

Silent, unbelievers!!!

This is not a "week". This is the week foreseen by the seers! The week when the Forgeworld argument will finally be resolved. This time we will settle it! The community will share a single opinion! A consensus will be reached! All dissidents will burn!

 Unit1126PLL wrote:

 da001 wrote:

 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I've told you what I consider bad reasons:

1) Someone else doesn't approve of ForgeWorld and you're following their example unquestioningly.
2) You've heard from somewhere that it is overpowered, and you think overpowered stuff is bad, so you disapprove.
3) It's new, and something to which you are unaccustomed, so you disapprove.

Most other reasons (I would go so far as to say all) I'm comfortable with, and will not mind one bit.

So this are the three reasons you will not "approve".... then what?

And why should anyone give you their reasons?

Also, I like Forgeworld, but I refuse to play with overpowered stuff, no matter the source, because it is not fun to me (I find it boring)... so I am in point 2!!. What now?
1) You try to convince me of playing against an overpowered army.
2) We try to find another game.
3) We try to reach an agreement. I will accept that if you accept this.

People should give me their reasons because it's part of normal polite discourse. If they don't have a reason, then they should do some serious introspection, as automatic, knee-jerk rejection of something is irrational.

So what I would say, then, is that you should actually try playing against Forge World. It is not overpowered. I would admit that some Forge World is overpowered, but a categorical refusal of all Forge World everything is an overreaction. So basically I would go with point 3 - try to come to an agreement about what rules from Forge World you would let me play!

Not giving an explanation doesn´t mean that there is no explanation. A lot of people will refuse to explain their reasons because they don´t want to start an argument. What looks like a good reason to you is a bad reason to them, and vice-versa.

I accept point 3!!

From here on, it depends of your army.
1) If you are using overpowered stuff and the other player is tabled in turn 4, you just created a forgeworld hater: he will claim that all forgeworld is overpowered, refuse to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.
2) If you are using normal stuff and the game is fun for both, you just created a Forgeworld lover: he will claim that not all forgeworld is overpowered, accept to play with Forgeworld units again and tell others to do the same.

The real problem Forgeworld has is the high number of WAAC players that ruin the game for others using that few overpowered units.

( Disclaimer: I know (and own) some units from Forgeworld. )


Automatically Appended Next Post:
@Brother Payne: of course I will play. I advocate Forgeworld, house rules and supplements. I am always eager to try new stuff.
And I really believe in count-as models. Even if it is a cheaper model, as long as it is clear what is what. Most models from FW are gorgeous.

I deeply dislike one-sided games though.

I agree with a lot of things however you could also not be using an "OP" Forge world unit like a Tetra or any "op" riptide and table the opponent. A lot of times it comes down to the person saying that it was because of that one model not the player's skill.

Unit1126PLL wrote:What if I told you I was comfortable with making the appeal to authority, and then told you that it wasn't a fallacy to do so in this instance?

It's the APPEAL to authority that's the fallacy. It doesn't matter if the source being appealed to is an authority or not. "because he said so" is a subset of the same fallacy as "because I said so".

If you're willing to accept arguments based on nothing but assertion, than you should accept me when I assert that forgeworld isn't official. See how this quickly grinds down into base grunting instead of reasonable discourse?

 Ailaros wrote:

Unit1126PLL wrote:What if I told you I was comfortable with making the appeal to authority, and then told you that it wasn't a fallacy to do so in this instance?

It's the APPEAL to authority that's the fallacy. It doesn't matter if the source being appealed to is an authority or not. "because he said so" is a subset of the same fallacy as "because I said so".

If you're willing to accept arguments based on nothing but assertion, than you should accept me when I assert that forgeworld isn't official. See how this quickly grinds down into base grunting instead of reasonable discourse?

You don't think that a company that makes a game would be the arbiter of what's in the game?

Why do you use the Imperial Guard Codex to play your army? I say it is unofficial!

I think this discussion is already go on here:

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/0/564825.page