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There's an ignore button for a reason. Also a scrollwheel works wonders to get past the vitriol that crops up a lot.

Previous poster is totally right.

Trick is to distill the small nuggets of gold/wisdom from all the dross.

EDIT:
I'm reminded that even Usenet discussions were exactly the same in the infancy of the Internet. You'd be discussing some innocent technical subject/coding problem and then WHAM Godwin'ed.

Just a few words:
Internet is the maximun subjectivity, the paradise of the statment without argumentation or facts, like all Peregrine writtes wherever he appears
And i dont telling you, OP, that everithing is a waste, like everybody has benn talking here, just select the gold nuggets from the dirt, and more importantly, never play to give satisfaction to the curently trend of the month, just play as you like to play, even the rulebook suggest it, maek your own house rules, make some changes here and there and have fun, even if its "a broken and unplayable game", if you cant have a fun and exiceted game, then the game is fine, forget about the super competitive scenary and super-duper-hiper-netlist, at last, thats why ia buy some orks, to have some laugh while playing
Well, that wasnt just a few word juar juar juar

Any time anyone gets bent out of shape and starts kicking up dust about how GW has "ruined 40k forever" (this week) I just like to think of Al Gore:



I treat both with the same level of seriousness too.

Yeah a part of me wishes I never came to these forums with all the bitterness and disappointment I feel when others give me sour thoughts and opinions, but then without these forums, I would have never had the courage to start miniatures as a hobby in the first place, so it is a double edge sword.
I get persuaded easily as well... I didn't want a Heldrake in my army, but felt that due to opinions around here, I would have a massive failure of an army. So now I am making a DKoK army, using IG codex, with Inqs.... And doing it my way!!

I'm actually really glad I came to the forums, it helped me define the playstyle I wanted to play, with combined arms Necrons, and learn what spam is out there, so I can avoid being too beardy or cutthroat unless i want to be.

Gave me more appreciation for what was out there, and deepened my knowledge of the unitverse and fluff too (Both the good and bad parts)

To the OP, there is nothing wrong with Pyrovores.
Please stop reinforcing the stereotype.

Oh yes, Pyrovores are really good. They make fantastic paperweights and biovore models.

I have been on Dakka for years, and in the hoary old days the GW forums before that and never once have they influenced how I play my armies in 40K.

If I want to field a squad of Shining Spears in my Eldar army, I'll do it. I love the conversions I made because they are totally unique to me, and I field a Saim-Hann style army so aspect warriors on Jetbikes totally fit the theme. They aren't the greatest (and in older editions, some of the worst), and most Dakka "advisors" will flip their lid that I play them, but it's not about what faceless people on the interwebz think, it's what I want to do with the army I like to make it fun for me.

PrinceRaven wrote:Oh yes, Pyrovores are really good. They make fantastic paperweights and biovore models.

Precisly, by statement like these is the reason that appear post like this, the OP is making a reflexion about the forums and how they break and influence the gaming experience, maken worthless the effort of choosing an army, because the forums dictates that the uberpower army are eldar, tau and necrens, and then render useful several unit of the different codex and mark them as a waste of time if you wanna play them.
If you want to play pyrobores, by the simpla fact to wacht them on the battlefield, then make it, even if you considere them paperweights dont talk like is an true fact to all the players

AegisGrimm wrote:I have been on Dakka for years, and in the hoary old days the GW forums before that and never once have they influenced how I play my armies in 40K.

If I want to field a squad of Shining Spears in my Eldar army, I'll do it. I love the conversions I made because they are totally unique to me, and I field a Saim-Hann style army so aspect warriors on Jetbikes totally fit the theme. They aren't the greatest (and in older editions, some of the worst), and most Dakka "advisors" will flip their lid that I play them, but it's not about what faceless people on the interwebz think, it's what I want to do with the army I like to make it fun for me.

I play space wolves, and everey forum and list i have read they all point that the wolfpriest is just a waste of points and jus playable with landraiders and bloodclaws , i love my comvertion that i make, and is a must have i all my lists, because of fluff, he is always paired with a runepriest (they are brothers), and he has make come true his sagas, like killing a blackmace deamon princesin a truly epic chagenlle, making real his saga of the beast slayer (reroll to hit against monstrous creatures), i hate to make long fang s spams and runepriest joww, instead i sue a pack of long fangs with lascanon and plasma canon, just for the fun, and a runepriest with two adivination or biomancy powers (i love biomancy), so, in short, i play like a i want to play, hate the netlist, the spam list and the super competive advice (i play fo fun, not just to win) i had great deafeats, yes, but i had even great wins too

Nobody is going to lose a game just because they included a pyrovore. With a spore pod and enemies with 4+ saves or worse, they can do some work.

They are an usually bad unit though. And that's important to get across. Sure, if you're three regular opponents play lootas, scout snipers, and tau pathfinders, that unit will pay dividends. For a true take on all comers list, in most metas? Not so much.

The way to look at it is to realize that some units are underpowered, but still generally useful. Something like Tyranid Warriors or IG rough riders or the necron jetbikes. All still do some stuff, and with support and good play, can be generally useful. Other stuff is just bad.

You want to play with a unit that's just bad? Good for you! Nothing wrong with it. Just buck up a bit and realize that the internet has made up its mind.

I don't tell people "Pyrovores are bad and if you use them I will come round to your house and lay turds in all your potted plants". I tell them "Pyrovores are suboptimal choice, so I recommend only using them in casual games with a low level of competitiveness". There's nothing wrong with playing with suboptimal units, but if you ask for competitive advice on a list that includes Pyrovores, don't be surprised if someone tells you that they're suboptimal and you should replace them with Biovores.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
I don't tell people "Pyrovores are bad and if you use them I will come round to your house and lay turds in all your potted plants". I tell them "Pyrovores are suboptimal choice, so I recommend only using them in casual games with a low level of competitiveness". There's nothing wrong with playing with suboptimal units, but if you ask for competitive advice on a list that includes Pyrovores, don't be surprised if someone tells you that they're suboptimal and you should replace them with Biovores.

I very much agree. I have a 5 man squad of melee Chaos Terminators that cost over 360 points, and while this squad is ludicrously uncompetetive I still love it. I only mentioned Pyrovores as an example of a unit that is generally seen as 'bad'. I did not mean to rustle any jimmies.

Internet forums were definitely the end of my innocence. But in a different way than the OP means...

But the internet has also opened my eyes in regards to the balance in 40k, which is often 'suboptimal'. Most other systems are a better. I really enjoy WHFB and Dropzone Commander, both of which are a lot better gameplay-wise than 40k.

However, imo, 40k has other advantages that offset its often suboptimal balance.

The true benefit of Dakka and the netlisting comes out every time I use a "crappy" unit and laugh at the critics when that unit does perfectly well for me.

 Shandara wrote:
EDIT:
I'm reminded that even Usenet discussions were exactly the same in the infancy of the Internet. You'd be discussing some innocent technical subject/coding problem and then WHAM Godwin'ed.

Wait rec.arts.miniatures.warhammer was an example of perfect communication and mutual support for all players and....snerk....sorry couldn't do it...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anyeri wrote:
I play space wolves, and everey forum and list i have read they all point that the wolfpriest is just a waste of points and jus playable with landraiders and bloodclaws , i love my comvertion that i make, and is a must have i all my lists, because of fluff, he is always paired with a runepriest (they are brothers), and he has make come true his sagas, like killing a blackmace deamon princesin a truly epic chagenlle, making real his saga of the beast slayer (reroll to hit against monstrous creatures), i hate to make long fang s spams and runepriest joww, instead i sue a pack of long fangs with lascanon and plasma canon, just for the fun, and a runepriest with two adivination or biomancy powers (i love biomancy), so, in short, i play like a i want to play, hate the netlist, the spam list and the super competive advice (i play fo fun, not just to win) i had great deafeats, yes, but i had even great wins too

You just have to remember it is YOUR hobby and approach it as such and you'll have no problems. The ones who have issues are those who can't think for themselves and are always trying to meet someone else's expectations and determinations of what a perfect army is from a given codex, and that changes almost daily. Hahahahaha...I use all kinds of units in my armies that others consider useless and as long as they accomplish the goals that I set for them they are not useless and it doesn't matter to me that I could have gotten a different unit to do that job for cheaper and more optimized in points. Don't play much in local stores for 40k anymore because I am tired of netlist fever. Too many armies look exactly the same anymore....blah...

Skriker

 Shandara wrote:

I'm reminded that even Usenet discussions were exactly the same in the infancy of the Internet. You'd be discussing some innocent technical subject/coding problem and then WHAM Godwin'ed.

Atleast after September 1993 that is certainly true.

Have there ever been a time when internet forums weren't troll-infested wastelands? I can't help but think that the very first response to the very first post on the very first network based message board was something about how the OP was an idiot for caring about whatever the topic was!

****FirstWorldWideWebUser: Wow! This network bulletin board is going to be a great way to share new ideas!

****FirstWorldWideWebTroll: This computer network thing sux! You should use pen and paper!


Sadly, so much good information is lost due to the presence of trolls. Look at the YMDC forum for example, so many good questions and ideas spring forth from that forum, but the posts themselves are usually bogged down in excessive rules-lawyering and trolling. If you have the stomach for it, you can learn a lot about the game itself as many of the questions asked, I never even really thought too much about.

 ClassicCarraway wrote:
Have there ever been a time when internet forums weren't troll-infested wastelands? I can't help but think that the very first response to the very first post on the very first network based message board was something about how the OP was an idiot for caring about whatever the topic was!

****FirstWorldWideWebUser: Wow! This network bulletin board is going to be a great way to share new ideas!

****FirstWorldWideWebTroll: This computer network thing sux! You should use pen and paper!


Sadly, so much good information is lost due to the presence of trolls. Look at the YMDC forum for example, so many good questions and ideas spring forth from that forum, but the posts themselves are usually bogged down in excessive rules-lawyering and trolling. If you have the stomach for it, you can learn a lot about the game itself as many of the questions asked, I never even really thought too much about.

No. And anyone who tells you "It wasn't like this in the BBS and Usenet days!" wasn't actually on the internet in the Usenet and BBS days.

 Skriker wrote:

 Shandara wrote:
EDIT:
I'm reminded that even Usenet discussions were exactly the same in the infancy of the Internet. You'd be discussing some innocent technical subject/coding problem and then WHAM Godwin'ed.

Wait rec.arts.miniatures.warhammer was an example of perfect communication and mutual support for all players and....snerk....sorry couldn't do it...

Skriker


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 anyeri wrote:
I play space wolves, and everey forum and list i have read they all point that the wolfpriest is just a waste of points and jus playable with landraiders and bloodclaws , i love my comvertion that i make, and is a must have i all my lists, because of fluff, he is always paired with a runepriest (they are brothers), and he has make come true his sagas, like killing a blackmace deamon princesin a truly epic chagenlle, making real his saga of the beast slayer (reroll to hit against monstrous creatures), i hate to make long fang s spams and runepriest joww, instead i sue a pack of long fangs with lascanon and plasma canon, just for the fun, and a runepriest with two adivination or biomancy powers (i love biomancy), so, in short, i play like a i want to play, hate the netlist, the spam list and the super competive advice (i play fo fun, not just to win) i had great deafeats, yes, but i had even great wins too

You just have to remember it is YOUR hobby and approach it as such and you'll have no problems. The ones who have issues are those who can't think for themselves and are always trying to meet someone else's expectations and determinations of what a perfect army is from a given codex, and that changes almost daily. Hahahahaha...I use all kinds of units in my armies that others consider useless and as long as they accomplish the goals that I set for them they are not useless and it doesn't matter to me that I could have gotten a different unit to do that job for cheaper and more optimized in points. Don't play much in local stores for 40k anymore because I am tired of netlist fever. Too many armies look exactly the same anymore....blah...

Skriker

Gosh, i my dislexy is worse that what i think about it , but i agree with you in every aspect, i know every one have a way to live the hobby, yes but thats no excuse to always play the army of the month just to keep it up with the trend, or to use uber-mega-chessy-spam netlist, created to troll on tourneys, on casual fun games, thats just wrong. I love my wolfpriest, i love my space wolves and never going to stop playing with them, even if the internet and whinings haters complaim about them, i love them, i paint them and play with them

I think this might be a fun place to say this....
Dakkadakka has.... ruined my enjoyment of Necrons and Space Wolves as well as heavily crumbled much of my interest in GK (I didn't like their OTT fluff but now it's far worse). Buuuuuuut, it has increased my liking of Tyranids, Guardsman, Orks, Sisters of Battle, and Chaos Daemons xD

the only place 40k is broken is on the forums....

likely due to people spending more time complaining on dakka then doing fun stuff, be it 40k or whatever, they seem to find complaining more fun then just working out the issue with the local gaming guys or moving past it.

personally, if your 7-8 buddies are having fun, then just keep doing what you are doing and continue to make having fun the priority.

GW cannot make perfect rules for everyone, even if that is what they claim to do, which they do not.

They made a loose ruleset on purpose, so that we can all make our own "40ks" locally with our buddies and just enjoy playing...

even a PERFECTLY balanced set of rules, is still totally unbalanced in that its still a luck based game...

GW could balance the game perfectly, and people would still complain its broken because they can fail 4 2+ saves in one throw or something.


the point is to have fun, if you and your opponent had a fun game, thats all that matters.

I always hate the "It's just for fun/narrative" excuse for the massive imbalance. I find nothing fun about one-sided curbstomp battles, no matter which side I'm on.

chess is perfectly balanced....

but by your logic, it isnt, because whoever goes first "auto" wins cause its unfair...

next time you play chess, roll a 4+ to see if you actually get to remove a peice each time....

did rolling the dice increase, or decrease the "balance"...

did it, or did it not completely change the game, and make every tactic different, and upredictable?

the game cannot be perfectly balanced, it isnt supposed to be... its supposed to be a changing meta, when rock is popular, paper is over looked until people realize it counters rock, when everyone jumps on the bandwagon and takes paper, some smart guy brings scissors...

we just have 10+ codexes each with 1-3 popular builds and many more "unpopular" builds... so we have 30+ versions of rock paper scissors to choose, and can even include elements of all in our armies.

the game is not massivly unbalanced, and no, having fun is not an excuse


Im tired of people who think a random, imagination/social contract type game's balance should be BETTER then that found in chess in terms of treating both sides equally.

its like people want to have two identical armies, just like chess, with identical powers, so that its balanced...

wow... what bland boring fun that would be.

the game mechanics and units are generally far more balanced then they are unbalanced,

besides which, the game is very much a WIP, and counters are still being released...

every new codex has countered somthing that preceeded it, or do you forget when airpower was king.. but then alone comes tau, and it changes, then along comes eldar, and it changes... and so on...

Again, no one's asking for perfect balance, I'm not even asking for perfect imbalance. I just want the imbalance to be a little less ridiculous, not even 5th ed 40k was as imbalanced as 6th currently is.

 PrinceRaven wrote:
Again, no one's asking for perfect balance, I'm not even asking for perfect imbalance. I just want the imbalance to be a little less ridiculous, not even 5th ed 40k was as imbalanced as 6th currently is.

Well, as i see it, the only unbalance on 40k are the players .
Dont eat me, wait jeje, i am not telling that the game is perfect, or the rules are the perfect ones for a tabletop game, what i am telling is that it have imperfections, yes, imperfection that dont stop us to enjoy the game in a casual way, but... like everything, there will be always players that want to gaina all the advantage possible to domain on the game, to always win, i mean, i dont think that thats something wrong, everyone has a different way to enjoy the game, but the problem is when you wanto make that a general rule to everyone else, to think that everyone is a power player that wants to win at all cost, you forget about the fun casual player (and i make reference to the weekend players or the parents that escape for one night, not to the casual casual, as example, the moms that play wii ) i mean, you ruin the game for all that players to the level that everyone begin to scream "BROKEN GAME, BROKEN RULES", on the wolrd of the video game is like some one take advantage from a bug that make him invensible, so everyone on the server get bore and leave, ruining the evenig from a man thta just join to the server because he just came from work and just want to relax; long story short, a bug and a power player (taking adavantage from all the wholes on the game system) ruined the day to man that just want fun
sorry for the gramma, bad english and a severe dislexy

I understand where you're coming from, but I'm not even talking about Timmy the power gamer, I'm talking about Ted the Taudar player, who played Protoss in Starcraft and likes Tau and Eldar because, let's face it, the Protoss are a blatant Eldar rip-off with some Tau aesthetic. Ted has a massive advantage against his local group of Ork, Tyranid and Space Marine players and beats veterans despite the gap in skill and experience, because Ted's army just happens to be incredibly overpowered. This isn't Ted's fault and we shouldn't blame Ted, we should blame the people who wrote Ted's codices and didn't playtest them properly.

Heck, you could take this into other things. Bob that decided to play GK because he thought the looked awesome in 5th edition and his best friend Jim is a chaos daemon player (with the older codex) not knowing that Chaos Daemons in the previous edition were absolutely and undeniably curb stomped. And then Draven built a chaos daemon list that was 3 DP and then 2 FMC because he thought that an army of flying monsterous creatures was awesome whilst his enemy giddily decided to play a Thousand Son army because he thinks their fluff is great and their models fit his tastes perfectly. And, this is ignoring the fact that certain codices are just strictly better than other codices or this codex well have less sub-par models then this codex.

 Ailaros wrote:
Yeah, a few things you've got to know before you drown yourself in misery of a web forum...

- Everyone has an opinion about everything, which they will share at every possible opportunity. Many people will drag threads completely off-topic if that's what it takes.

Just this line right here sums it up... you can see it happen on this post.

Anyway, I use dakka as a way to gather information and then play accordingly. If I am having trouble with an army or unit, I inquire to get a general consensus. Sure, reading the "your list sucks" things an be a bit disheartening but honestly, who cares about what people say? Do whatever makes you happy. I play Dark Angels and Orks, probably two of the most mediocre armies in the game, but I like to build and paint the models and I always loved the fluff etc.

In your certain circumstance, I would say that getting a Helldrake because you think it's cool is totally fine. ONE helldrake is not going to ruin the entire gaming group (or it shouldn't). Now, if you purposefully bought three because you want to troll all your friends and win, that's different. If you think it's cool, use it.