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dkellyj wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

This.

^ No that.

Rigeld, I misunderstood a previous post. For some reason I thought it was about the initial use of the searchlight.

 Stephanius wrote:

dkellyj wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
It is a restriction on the shooting unit. Notice how it restricts the shooting unit?

It's like words matter

Yes, words matter. And no place in the "Night Fight" rule is the word "restrict" or "restriction" used.
Nor is the word "benefit" used.
The paragraph in question lists 3 game modifications that the Night fight rule causes:
1. Units beyond 36" may not be targeted.
2. Units between 24" and 36" are treated as having the Shrouded USR.
3. Units between 12" and 24" are treated as having the Stealth USR.

The exact wording under Searchlights is:
Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting Special Rule.

RAW and RAI: A unit hit by a searchlight loses the Night Fighter Special Rule immediately.
You lose the 3 game modifications.
The downside for the shooting player: the unit that uses a search light also counts as being illuminated and loses the Night Fighter Special Rule.

This.

Has no basis in actual rules.

And makes no sense, since he's saying that there are no benefits of Night Fight for searchlights to remove.

Consider that the entire Nightfight rule is the benefit. Distant units cant see you to shoot and you get improved cove saves depending on range.
The Search Light rule removes the BENEFIT of the Night Fight rule.

Note that the writing in the book is singular, not plural. The single benefit lost to the illuminated unit is the Nightfight rule. And everything associated with the rule (range restrictions and cover). By adding an "S" at the end you are implying the Night Fight Rule listed separate benefitS. It does not.
If the intent was to remove just parts of the Night Fight Rule, those parts would be called out. The rule would say something along the lines of "illuminated units lose cover bonuses provided by Night Fight." It does not. It says you lose the Night Fight rule. The ENTIRE rule.

dkellyj wrote:
The single benefit lost to the illuminated unit is the Nightfight rule. And everything associated with the rule (range restrictions and cover).

No, because the "can't shoot" effect is a penalty applied to the firing unit, not a benefit applied to the potential target unit.

dkellyj wrote:
If the intent was to remove just parts of the Night Fight Rule, those parts would be called out..

They are. They tell you that the target unit lose the benefit of the night fight rule, and not that the shooting unit loses the restriction imposed by it.

Night Fight imposes a benefit to a unit being shot at (improved cover save) and a restriction on the shooter (can't choose distant units as a target).

The searchlight removes the benefit from the target unit.

To me it is pretty clear that an illuminated unit can be shot at from every range, not just less than 36".

Searchlight wording is: "Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule"


So, night fighting is a special rule, i check the special rules section on pages 32-43.
Nightfighting is a special rule on page 40 and described in detail in page 124

All text about ranges etc is written under the night fighting and as such, are part of this special rule.

So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

spartiatis wrote:
To me it is pretty clear that an illuminated unit can be shot at from every range, not just less than 36".

Searchlight wording is: "Illuminated units gain no benefit from the Night Fighting special rule"


So, night fighting is a special rule, i check the special rules section on pages 32-43.
Nightfighting is a special rule on page 40 and described in detail in page 124

All text about ranges etc is written under the night fighting and as such, are part of this special rule.

So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

Makes perfect sense to me. I cant think of a rule that only ignores part of a special rule it specifically mentions.

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

dkellyj wrote:
Consider that the entire Nightfight rule is the benefit.

Why? Because you want it to be so?

It says you lose the Night Fight rule. The ENTIRE rule.

No, it does not.

 Peregrine wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

 nutty_nutter wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

spartiatis wrote:
So, when another rule tells me to disregard a special rule, i disregard everything below that special rule.

But that's not what it says. It doesn't say "disregard the night fighting rule", it says "the night fighting rule does not apply to ONE UNIT". It's just like how searchlighting a unit doesn't turn off night fighting for every other target you want to shoot at, it's a selective removal from one and only one unit. The "no targets outside 36"" rule is applied to a completely different unit, so that unit follows the night fighting rule as usual. Compare the searchlight rules to the night vision USR and you'll see the obvious difference.

not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

Night fighting still applies to the unit doing the shooting at that illuminated target, does it not? If so, then the shooting unit still must follow night fighting rules.
What does that mean for the shooting unit? Can't target past 36".

If you're not applying that to the shooting unit, why not? The shooting unit(s) are not given permission to remove any night fighting rule(s).

All units (both yours and your opponents) have the night fighting rule durring applied to them that turn

Search light removes the benfit of that rule from the unit targeted. So that unit looses:

1.Cover save from Stealth/Shrouding
2. The ability to target a unit of 36"

Great! So they don't get the cover save and they can target a unit in their opponents shooting phase (which is usless because they are not allowed to shoot in their opponents shooting phase)

The shooting unit still has night fight applied so they:

1. Have a cover save due to stealth/shrouding (useless, unless taking wounds from shooting in their own shooting phase)

2. Can't target a unit over 36"


Even if you ignore the word benfit and look at it this way, the shooting unit still has the restriction of the 36" as they are not the target of the searchlight.

by that logic, going second, being targeted by a searchlight means you can shoot anything on the table as you are no longer effected by night fighting......

 nutty_nutter wrote:
not wanting to sound like I'm being argumentative but if the night fighting rule does not apply to one unit does that mean that a unit that has had a searchlight shone on it is not bound by the range restriction anymore?

No, because the searchlight removes the benefits of the rule. Not being able to shoot outside 36" is a restriction, not a benefit.

Please show us in the Night Fighting Special Rule where the effects of Night Fight are separated between "BENEFITS" and "RESTRICTIONS."
***Not being able to shoot outside 36" is a restriction, not a benefit.***
It is just as easy to say not being able to be seen by something beyond 36" is a benefit to the targeted unit.

Regardless, the Searchlight Rule specifically says you loose the BENEFIT (singular) of the Night Fighting rule. Not the BENEFITS (plural) listed in the Rule; which, as already pointed out, the word "benefit" is never used in the NF rule.

That singular vs plural wording is the key function of what the searchlight does. If search-lighted, that one unit (along with the unit using the search light) loses the Night Fight Special Rule. Not parts of the rule. The entire Rule.

Right - the targeted unit loses the rule. Great.

Does the 36" range apply to the shooting unit or the unit being shot?

dkellyj wrote:
Please show us in the Night Fighting Special Rule where the effects of Night Fight are separated between "BENEFITS" and "RESTRICTIONS."

It's common sense, just like they don't define "inches" to mean the conventional unit and not some weird new system. Everyone knows what "benefit" means, so you just use that understanding to ask whether an effect of night fighting helps the unit receiving it or hurts it.

It is just as easy to say not being able to be seen by something beyond 36" is a benefit to the targeted unit.

No it isn't, because that's not the same rule. You're changing the words to something else that is not in the rulebook. The rule is "can't target", not "can't be seen", and they are not interchangeable concepts.

Regardless, the Searchlight Rule specifically says you loose the BENEFIT (singular) of the Night Fighting rule.

Yes, singular. The cover bonus is the singular benefit.

Not parts of the rule. The entire Rule.

That's not what it says. Losing the benefit of the night fighting rule is not the same thing as losing the night fighting rule. Notice the difference between searchlights and the night vision USR.

Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

The searchlight rule does not say you lose the beneficial parts (regardless of how you decide to breakout what is a benefit and what is not) of the NF rule, it says you lose the BENEFIT of the Rule.
The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

The searchlight rule does not say you lose the beneficial parts (regardless of how you decide to breakout what is a benefit and what is not) of the NF rule, it says you lose the BENEFIT of the Rule.
The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

Let's for a moment assume that this is correct (that the ENTIRE rule is a benefit). Very well. That illuminated target can now target units outside of 36" and gains no cover save bonus
while ALL OTHER UNITS on the table still cannot target a unit outside of 36" as they are still under the effect of night fighting... really? So the illuminated target can shoot anything in it's max range (outside of 36" even) but nothing can shoot it outside of the 36" .. ok.

The rule does not say "cannot be seen beyond 36 inches". "Cannot target" has a very different meaning.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition. One of those effects being not seen beyond 36".

That's incorrect.
The target unit has no effects of the Night Fighting rule applied to it.
The shooting unit, however, still has the Night Fighting rule applied to it.

I wonder if the range restriction is applied to the shooting unit or target unit. I'm sure you could clarify that for me before you make any more assertions with no basis in rules.

dkellyj wrote:
Irrelevant. Once the unit loses the NF Rule, you no longer apply ANY of the effects of the rule to a unit in that condition.

That's not what the rule says. It says it loses the benefit of the night fighting rule, not the night fighting rule. Please go back and read the exact wording of the rule.

The ENTIRE Rule is considered a benefit.

No it isn't. The rules for night fighitng clearly separate it into two effects: a distance-dependent cover bonus to the target unit, and a restriction on picking a target more than 36" away applied to every unit. You're just re-wording the second part of that into a benefit for the target and then assuming that the searchlight removes your new rule.

s for your comparison between the effects of Night Fight between Search Light and Acute Senses...you are not taking into account the 2 rules apply to 2 different conditions. Search Light is based on my unit interacting with your unit. Upon that interaction those 2 units lose the NF rule. With Acute Senses, your just ignoring the rule (as if it was never rolled for) however your unit still maintains the use of the NF Rule in your turn.

dkellyj wrote:
Yeah, GW is widely known for making "common sense" rules.

Except we're not talking about a GW rule here, we're talking about an English word.

From my point of view, not being targeted by anything beyond a specific range is a BENEFIT to the unit I'm trying to shoot from long range.

And your point of view is not what the rule says. It very clearly says that the rule is "may not pick a target", not "may not be targeted". The two are not the same and you can't just change what the rule says like that.

Again, your trying to break out 1 section of a total effect to your advantage.

Actually, as an IG player with lots of searchlights, long-range weapons, and barrage weapons this rule is to my great disadvantage. But that doesn't change what the rule says.

If you negate the rule, you negate ALL of those effects on range.

And, once again, searchlights do not negate the night fighting rule, they negate its benefits on one unit. They do not negate the "may not target outside 36"" restriction on every other unit on the table.

As you said, we are talking about the English Language.
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.
By adding the "S" to the word you are changing the meaning to imply their are separate parts of the rule that are labeled as "Benefits" and "Restrictions." Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

dkellyj wrote:
The word is BENEFIT, singular. The BENEFIT of the Rule. Singular. The single rule. Not parts of it.

Yes, benefit singular. The single benefit removed is the distance-dependent cove save bonus.

Your words...that do not appear anywhere in the NF rule.

Yes, because GW expects you to understand simple English sentences and know that when a rule has good things and bad things it's obvious which of the two is referred to by "benefit".

So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

rigeld2 wrote:
So please cite the rule that allows the searchlight to negate a rule on an unlimited amount of units.

I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

dkellyj wrote:
I think I've been absolutely clear that we are talking about 2 specific units...the one being lit by the light, and the one using the light.

The point you just missed was that "may not shoot at anything more than 36" away" is a rule applied to every unit on the table, not to the unit that gets illuminated by the searchlight. So please cite the rule that allows a searchlight to remove a rule from every unit on the table.