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 Peregrine wrote:

 OverwatchCNC wrote:
Neither was the majority of FW.

The statements in the books saying "this is for standard 40k" disagree with you. If you can't see the difference between a FW book saying "this is official and intended for standard 40k" and a GW tournament policy document that only applies to events at one GW store, well, I don't know what to say to you since you're obviously not looking for a constructive discussion.

There is no such thing as a constructive discussion with you on this topic.

Haha, how did this devolve into another FW debate?

 Reecius wrote:
Haha, how did this devolve into another FW debate?

Hey man, you linked the "super official GW published tournament rules that include everything" except FW.

No one to blame but yourself for this one Reece. Well, and perhaps Peregrine, Mike, and I....

How am I supposed to make a BoB and Fred - Quitting DPs, comic with them running around like chicken little with the sky falling?

Damn it! I just wanna drink and play 40k!


BTW - All I see is a green curtain rustling with a 40 k voice coming from behind it. Eff them. The "Warrior 's Code" is the worst 'face saving' effort I have ever seen . . . by a game company. And that is just damn sad.

I'm still trying to work out why this is a thing?

Doesn't warhamere world also say only use GW models? Well feth I guess a lot of people won't be using their armies in tournaments now because this is apparently gospel.

My question is, how seriously should we treat a document that talks about an Iyandan supplement?

Or maybe there's a limited version of the Iyanden supplement out there somewhere with better rules, available for 5 USD?

I really don't see the issue here. These guidelines have been around for years, they sound very much like the tournament guidelines that were around over a decade ago when I stoppoed going to tournaments. The only slightly dubious area is the requirement to have major conversions approved before hand and that is doubtless to prevent modelling for advantage.

GW has never allowed non GW miniatures in their own tournaments and the rest of the guidelines are just good gaming etiquette.

I don't see why there is even any discussion about FW in this thread when FW models are clearly allowed to be used, FW rules have never been allowed in GW tournaments to the best of my knowledge.

 Orock wrote:

Because we don't play test and theres no way we can know if someone will come with some obscure list with units we made and just make the game look like the joke of tabletop rules gaming we all deny it is.

That's my problem with forgeworld.

Its not FW, that is GW's company policy


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Madcat87 wrote:
Well feth I guess a lot of people won't be using their armies in tournaments now because this is apparently gospel.

As long as you don't play at Warhammer World this is of no consequence and besides the ban on non GW models is hardly new.

To paraphrase Ice Cube.

'As long as the melon fethers still buying it, the media aint gak!'

Gw do not care about their player base - (they tacitly acknowledge they are a toy company above all else).

if GW continue in this current vein of releasing nonsense then it will take an exceptional individual or group to create something the majority can agree on for competitive play.

Short of stripping everything back to the basic mechanics and working up how would this even work?

Warhammer World doesn't just do Tournaments, they do Campaign weekends as well.

I imagine that forgeworld isn't specifically mentioned because it'll be dependent on particular events.

And, considering Forgeworld release / change rules quite frequently, maybe they just simply want the flexibility to list those books individually for specific events.

 Kirasu wrote:

just preemptively feel bad for the 13 year old kid who gets a Baneblade for his birthday and decides to bring it to that tournament he just head about at the LGS. The nice salesman at the GW store said it was totally legal in any game of 40K. The rule book and official website even backs it up.

Sucks for that kid then I suppose. There is absolutely no guarantee of people wanting to play against X unit, regardless of if GW says so.

If the mythical little timmy bought 6 Necron flyers at the beginning of 6th and gingerly skipped down to the LGS to play.. He'd probably be disappointed at a lack of opponents also.

He'll get over it, or he won't.

Psh I bought 9 and forced people to play me! Little timmy did it wrong imo! (He also didnt have his all transport speed freak army with him just in case I am assuming).

 OverwatchCNC wrote:

 Reecius wrote:
Haha, how did this devolve into another FW debate?

Hey man, you linked the "super official GW published tournament rules that include everything" except FW.

No one to blame but yourself for this one Reece. Well, and perhaps Peregrine, Mike, and I....

Fair enough!

But in my defense, I thought it included FW! haha, I missed that it was excluded. I saw it said Forge World models in the opener so assumed it was in the list, too.

Reading fail on my part and unintended consequences inbound!

SOme of the justification in that article from GW is dumb. For example:

A Daemon Prince with no wings that
nonetheless has the flight upgrade (no-one is
that psychic)


Hello, Mephiston from Blood Angels is.

carmachu wrote:
SOme of the justification in that article from GW is dumb. For example:

A Daemon Prince with no wings that
nonetheless has the flight upgrade (no-one is
that psychic)


Hello, Mephiston from Blood Angels is.

Mephiston cannot take a flight/wings upgrade. All he has is a psychic power to a similar effect, but psychic powers have never had to be modeled (and you probably couldn't, under the current rules, as most psykers generate them randomly).

carmachu wrote:
SOme of the justification in that article from GW is dumb. For example:

A Daemon Prince with no wings that
nonetheless has the flight upgrade (no-one is
that psychic)


Hello, Mephiston from Blood Angels is.

Mephiston isn't a Daemon Prince. Not in that context anyway.

Think you guys are missing the point a bit. Mephiston can effectively fly using his psychic might, but they're trying to claim no one is that powerful when talking about a daemon prince who can fly without physical wings.

But of course Mephiston is a Space Marine so it makes perfect sense that he would be able to and a being born of the fething warp can't.

 Sidstyler wrote:
Think you guys are missing the point a bit. Mephiston can effectively fly using his psychic might, but they're trying to claim no one is that powerful when talking about a daemon prince who can fly without physical wings.

But of course Mephiston is a Space Marine so it makes perfect sense that he would be able to and a being born of the fething warp can't.

If a Daemon Prince has a psychic power to fly, you don't need to model it. Again, Psychic Powers don't need to be represented on the model.

I don't really get the logic you guys imply.

The "Molten Beam" psychic power is effectively a Meltagun. Still, I don't need to model my Psykers with a Meltagun, only because they could have that power. Inversely, I still must model troops with Meltaguns with actual Meltaguns. The requirement isn't "suspended" only because a Psyker can mimic the effect with a Psychic power that doesn't need to be modeled on the actual miniatures.

The same applies to psychic powers that provide jump pack/wing-type effects.

It's because they're using a fluff explanation for why the wings have to be modeled on and the fluff explanation is stupid.

I wouldn't really call those little forced jokes in the brackets "fluff explanations".

They are just that, little (mostly not-funny) jokes. Like the one about swarms.

That's what you're upset about?

They're pointing out GW is using fluff instead of rules as justification. If they were using only rules, upgradeflight isn't the same as psychicflight, per your argument here.

Instead, because whoever wrote the rules is of average critical thinking skill, he opened up legit critique because psyflight of ANY kind is being used by him as insufficient to fly, whether by upgrade or psychic power. Basically, stupid reason is stupid.

MVBrandt wrote:
They're pointing out GW is using fluff instead of rules as justification. If they were using only rules, upgradeflight isn't the same as psychicflight, per your argument here.

Instead, because whoever wrote the rules is of average critical thinking skill, he opened up legit critique because psyflight of ANY kind is being used by him as insufficient to fly, whether by upgrade or psychic power. Basically, stupid reason is stupid.

I have a Daemon Prince who is modeled with a jet pack. He is now incapable of flight. Thanks GW!

I'm sure for 3.99 you can buy a dataslate that lets you give your demon prince a jump pack

 Kirasu wrote:
I'm sure for 3.99 you can buy a dataslate that lets you give your demon prince a jump pack

My Christmas wish has come true!!

Man those are some horrible rules. Talk about nazi`s. YOU DO NOT DO THIS! WE WILL CHECK ALL YOUR MODELS! DO NOT CONVERT!

Glad GW isn`t actually running any tourneys near me.

Reece, this isn't GW's 'tournament policy', this is the rules for playing events at Warhammer World (and as such I've updated the title of this thread to make it less volatile).

For example, if GW were to run new events outside of Warhammer World (Throne of Skulls tournaments, for example), there is no guarantee they would follow the same guidelines printed here (as in the past they haven't matched up exactly either).

I trust Reecius judgement on most things 40K. I personally believe he is one of the best players in the world.
He lives and breathes this stuff all day long.

He has no hidden agenda with this. He is trying to bring some sense and balance into tournament play.

We are at a point where tournament 40K is going to have to have some reasonable comp, or you can all go play Warmachine.

Personally, I think the following is all the game needs right now.

- No escalation
- No stronghold assault
- Limit of two codices to create army list
- Limit of one formation

This thread was more fun when it still had Reece's flame bait title

Aftermath, if you include a nerf to the 2++ rerollable I like your list a lot. Very solid.

Aftermath. wrote:
I trust Reecius judgement on most things 40K. I personally believe he is one of the best players in the world.
He lives and breathes this stuff all day long.

He has no hidden agenda with this. He is trying to bring some sense and balance into tournament play.

We are at a point where tournament 40K is going to have to have some reasonable comp, or you can all go play Warmachine.

Personally, I think the following is all the game needs right now.

- No escalation
- No stronghold assault
- Limit of two codices to create army list
- Limit of one formation

And formations use the ally slot and you're gold.

Why do people want to ban all the fortifications in stronghold? None of them are no-brainers, but many of them are really good for many armies. Several might give some armies a chance in competitive play they normally wouldn`t have

 Illumini wrote:
Why do people want to ban all the fortifications in stronghold? None of them are no-brainers, but many of them are really good for many armies. Several might give some armies a chance in competitive play they normally wouldn`t have

I don't know. I'm not sure either - I think its because people see the AV15 fortifications with D-weapons and they think its all like that. But the rules changes themselves are quite valuable (and make more sense and are clearer than the main rulebook), and the non-Massive Fortifications seem fairly well balanced. The only other questionable thing may be the fortification units, but I think the points costs will make those non-viable competitively.

Basically, I think people are just scared to say, "we should include part of Stronghold Assault."

 Centurian99 wrote:

 Illumini wrote:
Why do people want to ban all the fortifications in stronghold? None of them are no-brainers, but many of them are really good for many armies. Several might give some armies a chance in competitive play they normally wouldn`t have

I don't know. I'm not sure either - I think its because people see the AV15 fortifications with D-weapons and they think its all like that. But the rules changes themselves are quite valuable (and make more sense and are clearer than the main rulebook), and the non-Massive Fortifications seem fairly well balanced. The only other questionable thing may be the fortification units, but I think the points costs will make those non-viable competitively.

Basically, I think people are just scared to say, "we should include part of Stronghold Assault."

Just like they are afraid to say "we should include part of the superheavy units", and just like people in Europe used to ban all named characters for years and years (both 40K and FB) while Americans used all of them, because truth be told most of them sucked. If someone lazy has a problem with a Revenant, he bans all superheavies. If someone has a problem with a macro cannon, he bans the whole stronghold assault book. If someone has a problem with Mephiston or whatever, he bans all named characters.

Just go further back in history where many tournament organisers released detailed comp packs about what was allowed and what wasn't (and some still do). Don't blanket ban anything. Invest a bit more time and effort in the job. The goal shouldn't be balance, but better balance, and it won't take a committee of 5 experienced tournament players more than a day to come up with an army restrictions draft that will make the game playable.

Personally I'm getting the feeling that most of the (premature) panic is actually just about the strength D and how it removes Screamerstars in one hit. I wonder if people would consider a 900 point Revenant still horribly overpowered if all strength D was just comped to be S10 AP1 (or AP2). It has the same survivability as a bunch of Wave Serpents, but costs an absurd amount of points, so clearly only the firepower is a problem. The more that I think of it, 4 S10 AP1 ordnance large blasts for 900 points sounds about right (225 points per blast) considering the mobility. I'm sure someone out there would already call the Revenant garbage after that simple change, as opposed to horribly overpowered. Now those who like the model a lot and the playstyle it brings get to play with it, and those that have to go against it have a chance. Everyone's happy?