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 Unit1126PLL wrote:
I can build a 1000-point 40k list for 247.25 retail, one which is quite reasonable.

I can build an 1850-point 40k list for $495. *shrug*

I can build it cheaper by using non GW plastics and tanks

 MeanGreenStompa wrote:
Again, I'm not asking for a smaller game, I'm asking why doesn't GW produce, under it's auspices of 'everything should be available for you to choose', a set of rules for fluid, somewhat more balanced tournament or pick up games?

Because providing a balanced, tournament sub game would make it obvious how poor the regular edition is, and they don't want to do anything that'll restrict choice (every supplement has been ways to expand your current choices; flyers, superheavies, terrain). The fans would want it but it goes against everything GW is aiming for at the moment (not supporting competitive play, targetting churn and burn customers, and trying to sell the new big thing).

The rules are to sell models, nothing more.

 Scott-S6 wrote:

People don't like doing that because many other wargames have a much higher per-model cost than 40K/WHFB which doesn't help the point they're trying to make (that GW are big meanies).

On a direct comparison basis, there really arn't many other wargames that cost more per model on average than GW. There are some outliers and boutique companies that don't have access to GW's economies of scale (in-house plastic design and casting, distribution networks and designers). There are things like Infiniti and Raging Heroes that are almost all metal/resin made by small companies. But there are lists of companies producing stuff cheaper than GW like the Perry's*, Warlord, Mantic, Reaper, Wargames Facyory, Victrix, Gripping Beast.


*Who also sculpt for GW, so make a good comparison; same sculptors, same material, same scale (of minis), huge price difference despite having to outsource the casting.

It's all what you want to use as an argument. M.E.R.C.S figures are 10 dollars a figure, but a fully functional army only needs 5 figures so each player needs 50 bucks plus the rulebook. Any more than that for a faction is just so you can swap things out for others.

Usually the smaller the model count in an overall army, the more expensive each figure. Other than boutique figures from other companies, the bog-standard requirements for an army in 40K are very, very expensive. I'm not sure what other wargame has a comparable expense for a newbie to get into the game with the rules and an army.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Pacific wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

Simply put though, Infinity is a game where you might end up spending just as much as a small Fantasy or 40k army just to have a reasonable variety of things to field and so that you can confuse regular opponents as to who your Lieutenant is.

Kan... I don't think I really need to say anything. You knew full well that wasn't true as you wrote it..

I really do wonder about you sometimes..

As of right now my Corregidor collection is sitting at $240.24 retail. And that consists of a pair of Corregidor boxes, an Iguana TAG, a Wildcat, three Tomcat blisters, and three Hellcat blisters.
Some stuff was bought discounted via The Warstore(Iguana and one of the Corregidor boxes) and Atomic Empire(Corregidor box, two Tomcat blisters and the Hellcat Hacker/HMG blister) and the remainder(Tomcat Engineer, Wildcat with Spitfire, and Hellcat with Boarding Shotgun blisters) were bought at retail price from another local shop when they had them in stock but the other places did not.

There are plenty of different options I can do for lists depending on points totals, but you and I both know that variety is the spice of life for Infinity now don't we?...

I'm unclear what point is being made here, or how it rebuts what Pacific is saying: WHFB and WH40k are designed so that minimum investment is much, much higher then other competing systems.

To counter that by pointing out that an entire "Corregidor collection is sitting at $240.24 retail" seems... odd. In the sense that this fully functional army capable of multiple options is the same retail price as a single unit of Witches for WHFP (4 boxes of 10 models at $60 each). Now, that is an outlier in the reprehensible pricing model that GW has, but their other offerings are by no means cheap given the constraints of the system; a pair of 40 man units of dreadspears weighs in at a pricey $280 (8 boxes of 10 at $35 each).

It's entirely fair to point out that these comparisons may not be the best (having abandoned WHFB some time ago, I don't know how many men an infantry block needs these days), but one must remember it is a comparison between a small part of a usable force at standard point level, to an entire collection capable of being fielded in multiple configurations. This is not a slander against GW: they have, quite consciously it must be said, chosen to tailor the rules for their games to favor big battles and large forces. A consequence of that is a barrier to entry where what it costs to start other systems ($50-60) is utterly inadequate to start either of GW's main systems.

As a skirmish game, LOTR used to be by far the cheapest of the three systems. Sadly, its now becoming exponentially more expensive itself.

A typical game of LOTR SBG would be about 500pts. That tends to involve an army between 20 and 50 models, depending on the faction.

It used to be you'd get a 24 model infantry box for ~ £15. Thats ~ 200 pts.
You'd get some metal elites, about 12 for £32. That would be about 120 pts.
Then you'd get a couple heroes. A Captain and a powerful named character for about £16, ~200pts.

A total of £63.

Now with the more recent Hobbit releases, 24 plastic infantry would cost you £50.
12 Finecast elites (in clampacks of 4 each) would cost you £48.
Heroes typically cost about £12 each (£25 for a foot & mounted pair for a single character).

That would be a total of more than £120.

I'm being vague here, but you get the point.

There are so many forces that I'd like to start, Mirkwood Elves, Azog's Hunter Orcs, Erebor Dwarves. Then I count up the starting cost for even a small 500 pt size game and I balk.

In future, I'm going to just use alternative miniatures like historicals, convert and paint them to fit and write my own rule as necessary. E.g. I got 80+ great looking, multipart customisable plastic Anglo Saxon miniatures from Gripping Beast for £40. Metal characters for as little as £3, with a comparable quality to the average, pre Hobbit, pre Finecast LOTR miniature.

I'll just use them as Rohan infantry, focusing on Shieldwalls and heavy infantry backed up by skirmishers. A few house rules (like allowing the option of standard spears and heavy chainmail armour) and its like an entire new faction.