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 BlackTalos wrote:
Same page, slightly higher: "The base of a Flyer is effectively ignored, except when:"

And none of the 2 exceptions say anything about models under it.

There is no Rule in book stating a unit cannot share a base with others? Or state one or a page if there is?

Read the header for the passage you're quoting instead of taking it as a blanket statement.

and looking through the same FAQ:

Q: Are models free to move underneath a Swooping Flying
Monstrous Creature? (p49)
A: Yes, though enemy models must finish their move at least
1" away from the Flying Monstrous Creature’s base.

= Yes you can fit under your fmc UNLESS you are an enemy.

Right?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Ghaz wrote:
Read the header for the passage you're quoting instead of taking it as a blanket statement.

Flyers and measuring

Do you not measure in the movement phase too? =P

BlackTalos,

One of the things you will quickly learn here is that these rules use a permissive based format. Therefore, it is not possible to even ask a question like 'there is no rule about you can't be on it's base?' Unless the request for a rule proving a negative is in direct contest to an already existing permission, it is impossible to actually prove or disprove the negative. Permission based never write about what they out-right disallow, but they go ahead to inform us what they allow and if any exceptions to that allowance exists.

Hence the line: Find me a section in the book where it says I can not just punch my opponent, smash his models, and declare legal victory?

General permissions for moving a model do exist, that would be the base of any argument stating you can place a model on top of another model. The issue with this idea is the restriction stating we can not move a model through another model, or any way place it with the bases over lapping, without precise permission to do so. Some permissions do exist for fliers, as I before explained the fact the one inch bubble is written into the rule is to prevent some broken situations that come from this. The issue with the precise permission in question is the word under, in that placing the friendly model above the base does not fit the requirements for it to be in a legal position as per the flyer rule itself.

- measuring -

Measuring a distance to see if it is legal and the placement of a model are two completely different things. Just because measurement is done before you prove the legal placement does not make the whole movement action some sort of 'measurement.' Ignoring the most obvious fact the two are different, I will focus on a little example from within this section of the book which makes the conclusion that movement is measurement very confusion. There is permission for me to go back and re-measure, or even decide not to move the unit at all after that point. However this very same section informs us once the model has moved it can not be returned to it's original position, that movement is final. If the whole movement action is 'measurement' then I could evoke the first part of the rule to break the second part of the rule, or evoke the second part of the rule to state the first part is the 'order to move' and can't be reversed.

Therefore the argument that measurements are done as part of movement, so the base has to be ignored, will only lead you to the conclusion that you can not do any of your per-measuring from the base. The physical movement of the model itself will still require us to obey all standing restrictions preventing us from placing a model underneath the base. The only outcome would be to force a player to make all measurements from the hull to the new location and that doesn't actually change anything. After all we don't measure to from where the hull is to where the base will be, that wouldn't be ignoring the base. We would be required to measure where that part of the hull would be, or technically any part of the hull if you have permission to rotate it after movement. It is just a coincidence that it ends up putting the base in the same position as if you had measured from it in the first place more times then not.

BlackTalos - no, *anyone* can fit under a FMC or Flyer. However you must, if an enemy, stay 1" away from the base / hull of the model.

You have no rule saying you CAN move over the base, so you cannot

I'll just go back to my example of the Hierophant, or say any large model such as titans. Would you then leave a 12" by 12" gap in your army where the hierophant is? or just place it above your Tyranid horde?

I know i would pick the latest, although i have never seen one of them played.

In the same way, i do believe Flyers are above other units, almost treated as a ruined building level, and would place it above, or other units below it.
Two models can share the same location if above each other in a ruin, so if your flyer is on another level on top?

Again: are they ON YOUR BASE?

If yes: illegal placement. No question
If no: thats ok, as long as if anenemy model you are also not within 1" of hull / base

You are confusing "beneath" with "beneath, on the base"

A hierophant, on a large base, doesnt get to have models underneath it. A warhound titan, with no base, can easily have other models underneath it.

I'd quote the rulebook but i'm not at home. It introduces the Flyers as saying they're on a base that "suspends them above the battlefield" somewhere, so having it hanging on a pole from a string would be "more adequate" but less feasible. That's how i see those flyers =S

ALso breaks the rules which requires you to use the base supplied with the model.

P80: Models that physically fit under a Flyer model can move beneath it. Likewise, a Flyer can end its move over such models.

Use the Stormtalon for this, the model has nothing "sticking out" of it's base (like a marauder would) and no where does this rule say "only applies OFF the model's base.

Until it is FAQed i don't see why anything can't "physically fit under a" Stormtalon

Edit: Oh and the "Flyer can end its move over such models" wouldn't be said if you consider Stormtalon & Landraider for e.g.

CAN end its move. NOT "can ALWAYS" end its move.

Again: they have FAQd that (like in previous editions) you dont get to mvoe over other models bases. THats it.

I'm still waiting for proof that another model can fit underneath the flyers base , needed before this rule can be evoked in the first place.

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are confusing "beneath" with "beneath, on the base"

Sums it up right there. Beneath means under the wing, under the nose, under the tail, under the hull, under any point that isn't on the base. You may never put one model on top of another model's base, or on top of any vehicles hull, in any situation. Otherwise i'd just stack 6 rhinos on top of each other and come at you like totem pole.

 deviantduck wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:
You are confusing "beneath" with "beneath, on the base"

Sums it up right there. Beneath means under the wing, under the nose, under the tail, under the hull, under any point that isn't on the base. You may never put one model on top of another model's base, or on top of any vehicles hull, in any situation. Otherwise i'd just stack 6 rhinos on top of each other and come at you like totem pole.

Someone needs to make that.

 deviantduck wrote:
You may never put one model on top of another model's base, or on top of any vehicles hull, in any situation. Otherwise i'd just stack 6 rhinos on top of each other and come at you like totem pole.

I would indeed like to see that one day =P

But in no way is this applying to "all vehicles" and "all bases". I am restricting this question to "flight stands" which could *almost* be described as "not a base", even if it's nit-picking...

This FAQ:Q: Are models free to move underneath a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature? (p49)
A: Yes, though enemy models must finish their move at least1" away from the Flying Monstrous Creature’s base.

Would arise from the question "but FMC have normal bases, not Flight stands?" which would lead to them answering "yes" you can fit underneath it. As FMCs usually don't "outgrow" their base by much this is really a base question, not a -wingtip, flail, head, arm- sticking out.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Why would they say "must finish their move at least 1" away" from the base if not implying other model CAN finish their move under it? "free to move underneath"

If you think FMCS don't overgrown their bases you've not seen a current Flyrant or any of the Demons who use Balrog wings.

Seriously.

BlackTalos,

They can finish their move under the base... providing they fit.

JinxDragon wrote:
BlackTalos,

They can finish their move under the base... providing they fit.

Which means that not a single model can move under any GW standard Daemon Prince or BT.

Sorry in advance if we're not supposed to link other forums, but I've researched it a bit and this came up:

http://www.40kforums.com/vb/showthread.php/39540-Of-Flyer-Bases-and-assaults
and here:
http://www.heresy-online.net/forums/showthread.php?s=5d494b7c57b6ff1ba533a5e938e489f3&t=115770&page=2

If you have a quick read through both posts it just makes sense as is.

You can assault a unit underneath a flyer and the base is ignored because it is zooming.

This comes to mind, and the issue raised:

Turn 3. Your orks want to assault my Sisters squad, but i put my flyer right in front. You can't charge my squad because you'd be 1" away from the flyer.
I consider that cheating really, but i suppose RAW would mean as much =/



Automatically Appended Next Post:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Q: Are models free to move underneath a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature? (p49)
A: Yes, though enemy models must finish their move at least1" away from the Flying Monstrous Creature’s base.

And again: why this FAQ?
*Swooping* specifically.
So you mean to say you can't fit a marine under it's wing when it's gliding?

 BlackTalos wrote:

 BlackTalos wrote:
Q: Are models free to move underneath a Swooping Flying Monstrous Creature? (p49)
A: Yes, though enemy models must finish their move at least1" away from the Flying Monstrous Creature’s base.

And again: why this FAQ?
*Swooping* specifically.
So you mean to say you can't fit a marine under it's wing when it's gliding?

Using your Orc v Sisters example.

You would be unable to charge the Sisters squad on your turn. On their turn they can move under the Flyer and close distance with the Orcs to drop some holy Promethium on their faces. The Flyer then decides to zoom or hover.

I swoop my Flyrant in directly front of a Tervigon. Without that FAQ the Tervigon would have to go around - because of the FAQ, however, the Tervigon can move directly forward "under" the Flyrant.

Selym,

Notice the key word there was finish as no model is allowed to end their movement superimposed inside another model. Even if a player can find a Special Rule granting permission to move 'through' or 'under' the model in question, the rule would still need to address the whole 'superimposed' problem if the player wants to try and evoke it to end the movement occupying the same space as another model. Interestingly; without a special rule granting permission a model is not even allowed to end it's turn underneath another model, which is more evidence that Game Workshop doesn't write rules with the third dimension in mind. So simply being able to fit something small under the body of a skimmer is still not a legal move, it would need a rule granting permission to end it's movement there.

This Frequently Asked Question does not inform us that a model may end it's movement superimposed into another model, only that it may move underneath another model as part of that movement.

JinxDragon wrote:
Selym,

Notice the key word there was finish as no model is allowed to end their superimposed inside another model even if they have permission to move 'through' or 'under' the model in question. Interestingly; without a special rule granting permission a model is not even allowed to end it's turn underneath another model. So simply being able to fit something small under the body of a skimmer is still not a legal move, it would need a rule granting permission to end it's movement there.

This Frequently Asked Question does not inform us that a model may end it's movement superimposed into another model, only that it may move underneath another model as part of that movement.

Ah, soz.

JinxDragon,

But in that exact case, your space marine fitting on the Flyer's base is not superimposed, is it? and technically not an illegal move then?

And again to refer to fitting a grot under a land speeder: only Flyers benefit from a specification which is "Models that physically fit under a Flyer model" etc rule. So we can yet again not refer to skimmers.

Rigeld2,

i see, but i would personally find that completely illegal, a plane (in my example this is a zooming only Avenger) blocking a charge from the orks? The two links i posted come up with a clear decision that "when charging ignore the flyer's base" which makes sense.
Even if i'm the sisters player in this case, it would really seem completely underhanded.

A stormtalon going into hover mode, yes, the tactic would be understandable, but a jet-fighter? It just seems wrong...

 BlackTalos wrote:
Rigeld2,

i see, but i would personally find that completely illegal, a plane (in my example this is a zooming only Avenger) blocking a charge from the orks? The two links i posted come up with a clear decision that "when charging ignore the flyer's base" which makes sense.
Even if i'm the sisters player in this case, it would really seem completely underhanded.

A stormtalon going into hover mode, yes, the tactic would be understandable, but a jet-fighter? It just seems wrong...

You have to end your movement more than 1" away from the base. If my sisters squad is touching the base it's literally impossible for you to charge.
How is that illegal?

Because it's a Flyer, who, apart from shooting at/shot at has no interactions with what's happening on the ground. (disregard hover types)


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Oh, just checked through the Tenets for YMDC, and i am arguing this in HYWPI, not RAW, as raw is clear that charge is not possible...

Again:
If a model is standing on top of another model, as the base is part of another model, is it fully underneath that model?

But the base is not "part" of the model, the BRB clearly says that things like adding cover or height on your base is not changing the model. You use the base for various measurements, but not for the flyer.

Anyway, this is getting too deep with no rules to back anyone up really.... I believe Flyer's bases do not interact with the battlefield below in any way apart fro 1" to an enemy, and unless it Hovers, and nothing here has proved this different by RAW.

Not saying this is correct, just my interpretation which has not be proved wrong.

While there are some rules stating the base is ignored, for measuring purposes, this does not magically stop the base from being part of the model. This is because, right back on page 3, is a caption box explaining models and base sizes. It begins by stating that rules in the Rule Book are written with the assumption that every model is using the base that came within the kit. It does grant you permission to use other bases, in situations where the original kit had unusual or missing bases, but you must use a base of a suitable size for this purpose. While it doesn't seem to be a rule proclaiming to some sort of sequence or event, it is a paragraph that can be quoted to show that the base is an integral part of the model required by the rules themselves. At this point you need to provide us with a rule that clearly states out-right that the base is not part of the model in question, not just that it is ignored in certain situations. Until then you are constantly going to find people in opposition as the base is considered part of a model, and therefore you can not end your move on top of another model's base without express permission to do so.

I think I might of misplaced a rule though, can someone point me to which page the restriction preventing you from ending your turn underneath, superimposed-with or on-top of another model?

 BlackTalos wrote:
But the base is not "part" of the model, the BRB clearly says that things like adding cover or height on your base is not changing the model. You use the base for various measurements, but not for the flyer.

Anyway, this is getting too deep with no rules to back anyone up really.... I believe Flyer's bases do not interact with the battlefield below in any way apart fro 1" to an enemy, and unless it Hovers, and nothing here has proved this different by RAW.

Not saying this is correct, just my interpretation which has not be proved wrong.

... except it has. Your interpretation directly conflicts with examples that have been presented, repeatedly.

JinxDragon, i believe the only one is from the BRB FAQ Q: Can models move through other friendly models? (p10) A: No. Models that are an exception to this rule, such as Jump Infantry or Jetbikes, will state this clearly in their rules.

Then, on P47: Jump Units: "Jump models cannot end their move on top of other models (...)"

Then, on P83: Skimmers: " (...)can move over friendly models and enemies, but they cannot end their move on top of either."

BUT Flyers, P80: Models that physically fit under a flyer MODEL can move beneath it. Likewise, a flyer can end IT'S move OVER such models.


It's really a bit of an obvious choice for most words.

& Rigeld2, you still haven't found the Page telling me I can't put stuff on my flyer base, no...

Common sense as above points quite a lot as to the fact they planned it so.


1.Models can't move through others
2.Jump troops can't sit on others
3. Skimmers can't sit on others
4. Flyer Can sit above stuff

How much clearer to make it?

Permissive rule set - you've quoted literally no rules allowing you to stand on another model's base.