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 The Shadow wrote:

Aw, man, Bat Swarms are great. They don't have the straight up cheapness of Fell Bats or Hosts, but you don't take them for drops or chaff, you take them for the ASL on an enemy unit, which comes in useful with almost every VC combat unit. And, with two armies in the game having army-wide ASF (and likely a third when Wood Elves get re-done), then the possibility of denying re-rolls to hit is brilliant.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. Putting ASL on an enemy unit doesn't go that great with quite a few VC combat units. As a couple of examples, Grave Guard don't benefit much because they've got great weapons, so giving the enemy ASL only makes them go at the same time as GG. Another, which is any unit containing vampires, the vampires have high initiative and universal access to ASF.

But like I mentioned, one of my big problems with Bat Swarms is that it's kinda hard to get the combats that you want (especially considering that in any given game, there might be one single combat matchup that you'll want them in) and they're too fragile for how long it takes to get the right matchup. Against the two armies with army-wide ASF, those same armies have tons and tons of shooting.

 Tangent wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Aw, man, Bat Swarms are great. They don't have the straight up cheapness of Fell Bats or Hosts, but you don't take them for drops or chaff, you take them for the ASL on an enemy unit, which comes in useful with almost every VC combat unit. And, with two armies in the game having army-wide ASF (and likely a third when Wood Elves get re-done), then the possibility of denying re-rolls to hit is brilliant.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. Putting ASL on an enemy unit doesn't go that great with quite a few VC combat units. As a couple of examples, Grave Guard don't benefit much because they've got great weapons, so giving the enemy ASL only makes them go at the same time as GG. Another, which is any unit containing vampires, the vampires have high initiative and universal access to ASF.

But like I mentioned, one of my big problems with Bat Swarms is that it's kinda hard to get the combats that you want (especially considering that in any given game, there might be one single combat matchup that you'll want them in) and they're too fragile for how long it takes to get the right matchup. Against the two armies with army-wide ASF, those same armies have tons and tons of shooting.

Going at the same time is far superior to going afterwards. It means you get another bunch of attacks, attacks from "dead" models that you would have lost had you struck afterwards. Vampires may be going first, but they get re-rolls against Elves with Bat Swarms and the unit they're in will undoubtedly appreciate going first/at the same time. Crypt Horrors are my prime example for this combo though.

It's not too difficult to get the right matchup, it's that's all about skill and positioning. And yes, they are fragile and vulnerable to shooting, but they're still only 70 points, which is very cheap, at the end of the day (and if my opponent's shooting at the Swarms, then that's less shooting on my main threats).

Army Book WOC

Marauders as they are pricey now in terms of points. Seems picky in an army book filled with cool stuff but they don't come cheap. That and the models are quite dated.

 The Shadow wrote:

 Tangent wrote:

 The Shadow wrote:

Aw, man, Bat Swarms are great. They don't have the straight up cheapness of Fell Bats or Hosts, but you don't take them for drops or chaff, you take them for the ASL on an enemy unit, which comes in useful with almost every VC combat unit. And, with two armies in the game having army-wide ASF (and likely a third when Wood Elves get re-done), then the possibility of denying re-rolls to hit is brilliant.

I'm gonna have to disagree here. Putting ASL on an enemy unit doesn't go that great with quite a few VC combat units. As a couple of examples, Grave Guard don't benefit much because they've got great weapons, so giving the enemy ASL only makes them go at the same time as GG. Another, which is any unit containing vampires, the vampires have high initiative and universal access to ASF.

But like I mentioned, one of my big problems with Bat Swarms is that it's kinda hard to get the combats that you want (especially considering that in any given game, there might be one single combat matchup that you'll want them in) and they're too fragile for how long it takes to get the right matchup. Against the two armies with army-wide ASF, those same armies have tons and tons of shooting.

Going at the same time is far superior to going afterwards. It means you get another bunch of attacks, attacks from "dead" models that you would have lost had you struck afterwards. Vampires may be going first, but they get re-rolls against Elves with Bat Swarms and the unit they're in will undoubtedly appreciate going first/at the same time. Crypt Horrors are my prime example for this combo though.

It's not too difficult to get the right matchup, it's that's all about skill and positioning. And yes, they are fragile and vulnerable to shooting, but they're still only 70 points, which is very cheap, at the end of the day (and if my opponent's shooting at the Swarms, then that's less shooting on my main threats).

I think I still disagree. It doesn't usually mean getting another bunch of attacks, in my experience. As I mentioned, take GG. If you've got a horde, they're gonna get all of their attacks anyway because there's so many. Enough Crypt Horrors should, too. In fact, I'd be afraid to combo-charge them with Crypt Horrors because I'd be afraid that the Bats would give up combat res and force the Crypt Horrors to crumble when they otherwise wouldn't have.

I also don't think 70 points is very cheap. Remember, this is a thread about worst units in a single armybook, so we have to compare them to other units internally. When we do that, we see that Spirit Hosts and Fell Bats are both cheaper and better from the same Special allowance. Dire Wolves are cheaper and help you fill your Core. Hell, even a single Cairn Wraith is better. I understand that you're paying for the ASL, but on a unit that's just going to give up combat res to anything that you'd actually want to give ASL to, they're outshined by all of the other stuff that you could be getting for the points. I also understand about skill and positioning, but isn't that generally why easier-to-use units are considered a bit better?

Putting it another way, if another unit does the job for less points, then...? Is paying a premium for ASL worth it when the advantages/disadvantages scale so rarely tips in your favor?