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 Manchu wrote:
It is dumb to equate the Ten Commandments with some statue of Baphomet. The Ten Commandments actually pertain to the development of our legal system. That's not any less true for people who are not Jewish or Christian.

It's not as dumb as you seem to think, given that the Ten Commandments are primarily associated with religion rather than the legal system.

Technically, we really only need the second tablet. The first 5 Commandments are Religious and the second 5 are laws for basic human society.

It is the first 5 which people get upset about.

 Kanluwen wrote:
the Ten Commandments are primarily associated with religion rather than the legal system

It does not matter what the Ten Commandments are "primarily associated with" (whatever that means and however it is measured). The historical fact remains that the Ten Commandments have bearing on the development of our legal system. As a symbol in front of a courthouse, they are not interchangeable with a goat reclining on a pentagram.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
the Ten Commandments are primarily associated with religion rather than the legal system

It does not matter what the Ten Commandments are "primarily associated with" (whatever that means and however it is measured). The historical fact remains that the Ten Commandments have bearing on the development of our legal system. As a symbol in front of a courthouse, they are not interchangeable with a goat reclining on a pentagram.

Except as a symbol of religion interfering with the work of the state.

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except as a symbol of religion interfering with the work of the state.

This sentence doesn't mean anything.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Manchu wrote:
It is dumb to equate the Ten Commandments with some statue of Baphomet. The Ten Commandments actually pertain to the development of our legal system. That's not any less true for people who are not Jewish or Christian.

It's not as dumb as you seem to think, given that the Ten Commandments are primarily associated with religion rather than the legal system.

If you were associating it with the development of the US legal system you would have King Henry eating a turkey, or alternatively Napoleon smoking a stogie.

I'm not saying all the court houses should display monuments of the Ten Commandments; just that such monuments are not equivalent to a statute of Baphomet. It takes a moron to say "if you get to put up the Ten Commandments, we get to put up Baphomet."

 Manchu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
the Ten Commandments are primarily associated with religion rather than the legal system

It does not matter what the Ten Commandments are "primarily associated with" (whatever that means and however it is measured). The historical fact remains that the Ten Commandments have bearing on the development of our legal system. As a symbol in front of a courthouse, they are not interchangeable with a goat reclining on a pentagram.

I was unaware we used "You shall have no gods but me" as part of our legal system.

Less snarky: There are systems predating the 10 commandments which obviously influenced said commandments. Should we then have statues to those as well?


Simple fact is that the supposed stone tablets upon which the commandments were given to Moses is a biblical story. There is 0 correlation besides religious texts, making it thus a religious item.

Which means it has no place in our judicial system.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Except as a symbol of religion interfering with the work of the state.

This sentence doesn't mean anything.

Was the Ten Commandments put up because of the fact that it has a significant importance to our legal system?

 streamdragon wrote:
Simple fact is that the supposed stone tablets upon which the commandments were given to Moses is a biblical story.

Sorry but the guys who invented our system believed in those stories. And they derived their sense of justice from those stories.

You may not like history but there it is all the same.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the Ten Commandments put up because of the fact that it has a significant importance to our legal system?

I didn't put 'em up. But I think it's reasonable to assume so. After all, if you wanted to put up a Christian symbol without reference to the Western legal system, you'd put up a crucifix or a cross.

I thought our justice system was based on the idea of a free and independent judiciary.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I thought our justice system was based on the idea of a free and independent judiciary.

Are you genuinely so narrow-minded or is that just supposed to be snark?

 Manchu wrote:

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
I thought our justice system was based on the idea of a free and independent judiciary.

Are you genuinely so narrow-minded or is that just supposed to be snark?

I think your argument that the Ten Commandments is particularly more relevant than any other religious monument because we have laws against killing and stealing and the ten commandments have a couple against killing and stealing (despite the fact that laws against killing and stealing existed both before and independently after the writing of the Bible) is incredibly weak.

That's not my argument.

My argument is that the Ten Commandments in this context stand for the cultural reality of the history of our justice system.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:
Was the Ten Commandments put up because of the fact that it has a significant importance to our legal system?

I didn't put 'em up. But I think it's reasonable to assume so. After all, if you wanted to put up a Christian symbol without reference to the Western legal system, you'd put up a crucifix or a cross.

Per Mike Ritze, the Oklahoma legislature member whose family paid to have the monument created, "the Ten Commandments represent a a strong moral and religious symbol for Oklahomans".

So what?

He chose his words poorly. That doesn't mean displaying the Ten Commandments at a court is equivalent to displaying Baphomet.

 Manchu wrote:
Sorry but the guys who invented our system believed in those stories.

They probably believed in the existence of Satan/Baphomet/similar as well then.

 reds8n wrote:
They probably believed in the existence of Satan/Baphomet/similar as well then.

But not as the foundation for the concept of justice in civil society.

And also definitely not Baphomet.

Yes, some of the Ten Commandments (or at least Christianity in general) have definitely influenced our justice system in the past, and still do. Is it your position that -

a) the primary reason this statue was erected is as a historical monument, and
b) the erection of such in a secular society is not problematic

?

I would put it to you that if either a) or b) are false then putting up other religious monuments with it is just as reasonable as putting it there in the first place.

 Manchu wrote:
So what?

He chose his words poorly. That doesn't mean displaying the Ten Commandments at a court is equivalent to displaying Baphomet.

His words are also legally binding legislation, so there is that. And they are not displayed at a court, they are displayed in front of the capitol building.

 Manchu wrote:
So what?

He chose his words poorly. That doesn't mean displaying the Ten Commandments at a court is equivalent to displaying Baphomet.

When the intention is to show a religious/moral tie, then denying any other religion the same opportunity is unconstitutional. It does not matter whether you can make the argument that "the Ten Commandments played a part in the codification of our legal system!" or not, the intention is to showcase Oklahoma's religious past and current reputation as the "buckle" in the Bible Belt.

Honestly though, the legislature brought this on themselves. If they had not been so quick to form a committee that pushed the monument through and then immediately closed to further submissions? I don't think there would have been such a fuss.

 HiveFleetPlastic wrote:
Yes, some of the Ten Commandments (or at least Christianity in general) have definitely influenced our justice system in the past

No, the Ten Commandments as a concept has and continues to influence our concept of law.

d-usa: I don't know what words you are talking about. Also, I don't think the court v. state house thing is material.

Kan: I'd love to see a citation for that intent to establish declaration of yours.

Not sure why it is important for a courthouse to display the 10 Commandments -- which are very good and historical -- rather than the Constitution which is the actual law.

Ok ok ok, I gotta put these up. These are the real Ten Commandments.

1. Make no contracts with the people in the land where you are going.
2. Destroy the altars and icons of the people in the land where you are going.
3. Make no molten gods.
4. Keep the feast of unleavened bread.
5. All firstborn sons are mine, as are the firstborn among your sheep and cattle. They must be sacrificed to me or redeemed by sacrificing another animal in its place.
6. On the 7th day thou shalt rest. And during earing time and harvest you shall rest.
7. Three times a year your boys shall all appear before the Lord.
8. Thou shalt not offer the blood of my sacrifice with leaven.
9. The sacrifice of the Passover shall not be left over till morning.
10. Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

I would like to have those sitting next to the made up ones. Just because... Well look at them! They make no goddamn sense.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not sure why it is important for a courthouse to display the 10 Commandments -- which are very good and historical -- rather than the Constitution which is the actual law.

Again, I'm not saying courts should display the Ten Commandments; only that doing so is not the equivalent of putting up Baphomet statues (or a statue of Christ for that matter).

 Manchu wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
They probably believed in the existence of Satan/Baphomet/similar as well then.

But not as the foundation for the concept of justice in civil society.

I disagree.

Effectively what it seems you're saying there ( albeit possibly unintentionally) is that the Xtian concept, nay the actual explanation/personification for evil and wrongdoing in so many forms in our world, is entirely separate and distinct from the concept of justice and righteousness.

In fact given the terms and ideals/ideas of the new covenant/testament one would suggest Satan/whatever is more relevant than the 10 commandments.

Now if one was arguing from a more Old testament/Jewish -- ie there is no Satan ( arguments about Job etc all aside) then one would suggest you'd be absolutely correct.

Seems to me that removing Satan from the development of the civil codes -- or indeed vica versa of course -- is akin to trying to portray or depict any significant historical period and excluding one gender from the narrative entirely.

 Manchu wrote:

 Kilkrazy wrote:
Not sure why it is important for a courthouse to display the 10 Commandments -- which are very good and historical -- rather than the Constitution which is the actual law.

Again, I'm not saying courts should display the Ten Commandments; only that doing so is not the equivalent of putting up Baphomet statues (or a statue of Christ for that matter).

The point has already been decided by the Supreme Court.

 reds8n wrote:
I disagree.

"Satan" is a personification of evil. That really has nothing to do with the concept of civil and criminal law.

 Kilkrazy wrote:
The point has already been decided by the Supreme Court.

Case?

Imnewherewheresthebathroom wrote:
Ok ok ok, I gotta put these up. These are the real Ten Commandments.


10. Thou shalt not boil a kid in its mother's milk.

I would like to have those sitting next to the made up ones. Just because... Well look at them! They make no goddamn sense.

Oddly specific...are you sure those are the "real" ones? Do you have a source?

Ah, found them finally. From what I found, those were the second set, not the first.

 Manchu wrote:

 reds8n wrote:
I disagree.

"Satan" is a personification of evil. That really has nothing to do with the concept of civil and criminal law.

What about The Devil's Advocate?