Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

But you're the one saying that your local group is nothing but 15+ top-level tournament winners and no one else.

That's not the mean experience.

Sometimes defeat will force you to change tactics, learn new skills, challenge you to find new ways round a tough aspect, victory only confirms your way worked. Not that there is a better way.

 Ailaros wrote:
But you're the one saying that your local group is nothing but 15+ top-level tournament winners and no one else.

That's not the mean experience.

I don't know what to tell you. It IS the "mean" experience if the players who are good will take the time to help their opponent during the game.

I got beat twice in a row last night by a guy whose done some pretty awesome things in 40K. He beat me by a whisker in the first game, and fairly soundly in the second. We were both experimenting with armies and we both learned a lot from it. We will both be better next time we face off, with our respective forces. And there is indeed something to be said for honing yourself against a hard stone.

However... those wins and losses counted. Just because we happen to be salty vets doesn't mean we dont accord our opponent the respect he deserved for beating me. We could sit here and say "oh but the lists" or we could say "Oh but the dice" or we could say "Oh but the opponent"...

"Oh" my ass. I OWN those losses as surely as i OWN those wins. The scoreboard says it and I know what I have to do to get better wit hthat list. So we both won in a way but ultimately, denying EVIDENCE before us that he had the better strategy is simply not in my nature.

Jancoran wrote:It IS the "mean" experience if the players who are good will take the time to help their opponent during the game.

There are going to be tens of thousands of gaming groups where everyone has won a tournament a few times?

Jancoran wrote:I OWN those losses as surely as i OWN those wins.

40k is a dice game you know. You can always play odds better, but I find it curious that anyone would feel that the result of their die rolls was their fault. Unless you're cheating.

Or unless you have some sort of mad meta skills.

I do know its a dice game. GOOD Generals make the dice less important.

How?

They calculate the odds better I am sure you'd agree. They tend to be smarter or faster at math. Before pre-measuring, this was even more true.

They TEND to be thinking two rounds ahead and that means they are more adept at feints

Good Generals tend to be willing NOT to shoot at times in favor of position and they will use their vulnerable positions to lure you or set up no win situations: It's an exchange game, and the better General is aware that he can simply OUT-exchange you, not out best you.

Good Generals can quickly size up what will be game relevant and what won't be.

Dice being fickle, it isn't always wise to let them have a say. Everything you do in a game has an impact, and movement TIMING is overlooked pretty much...like always...on forums as a way to win and an attribute that some units allow that isn't quantifiable in their points.

Good Generals remember to spread out.

Good Generals REMEMBER your rules more often. He makes his moves more quickly because his endgame may...may...rely on finishing the game and in tournies that matters.

There are a hundred little things that make a Generals record reflective of his ability and the dice have little or no say in many cases on those factors I just mentioned, do they?

Lady Luck is involved. Thats how Good Generals lose and occassionally by her good graces wins when he shouldn't. But then, good generals do make their own kind of luck as I've said, so BAD luck tends to be less impactful even when it causes losses.

Your record is what it is. I make no excuses for mine and fortunately, i never need to. Best of all I'm not playing 6 flyer lists. I'm not fielding 9 Broadsides (nor 15). Im not playing ANY netlists in point of fact. I'm just beating the person. I build the list so its not especially vulnerable to anything, and then I try to out General you. Sometimes it even works.

Develop all comers lists, get good at the GAME and profit. Fall in love with the units alone and you will not profit. The record will reflect it. Your "great list" still cant beat a well General'd average one without lady lucks help.

"Baby seal" philosophy just holds no water for me. There just aren't enough of them, for long enough, to make a 75% winning percentage irrelevant. And even if some meta somewhere somehow DID have a pool of completely idiotic people who never learned anything from any loss...and still kept playing...well that is NOT the rule. That's the exception.

And sometimes for some of us, (like myself), there's just no ignoring the fact that dice simply don't like you...

You can calculate, risk manage down to the last minute detail, preplan 2 turns in advance and out maneuver your opponent like a mad genius, but if you can't roll anything beyond a 2, (except when you're rolling for Ld tests, at which point it's easily 10+!), you're going to have a losing record.

I agree with Jancoran here, if win more than you lose you are by definition better than the majority of the people you play. Even if you beat a bad player, you are still better than said bad player. I also disagree that there are so many noobs/bad players out there as people think, if so then we are all "good players" because we here are all actually the in the top 20% of 40K players.

Sure, by itself a simple W/L doesn't mean much but it is a valid means of determining a players skill. That said, just because you have a great record doesn't mean you know squat about my army or are qualified to give advice, I've met really good players who are idiots when it comes to things like that.