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 Ravenous D wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Tailgunner wrote:
There's a lot of rather selective reasoning going on here. For a start, the core of GW's business is its models. not the codexes.

The core of GW's business is a game called Warhammer 40000. Aside from to the minority who buy the models just to collect and/or paint them, the models sell because people play the game. So a decline in the quality of the game discourages model sales.

... - the Knight codex exists to sell the Knight model, ...

Yes, that's the point.

A better codex will do a better job of selling the models. Conversely, a worse codex...

This is why the future is worrisome to me, if the nid codex was crap in order to sell the formation patches then it means GW is going full on EA and will attempt to milk every penny they can. Not to mention they haven't done a proper FAQ in almost a year.

The people who do the FAQs probably are now the ones doing the dataslates.

Not enough manpower to go around...

I know of several companies that would want to buy GW, but the problem is none of them understand how much you need to be with the player and not against it to survive. They would probably learn from bad profit margins though.

To continue the parallel the OP has pointed out I look at my own behaviors:

I moved away from TSR and many of it's products because they seemed like such a grind: nothing new or different just a different version of the same at increased cost. White Wolf and even Palladium seemed to be far better in comparison and I never looked back and did not even notice when they went under. Cost WAS a factor but when quality was better AND it was cheaper it was an easy switch.

GW I am in a similar state: I am seeing different packaging of the same material. X-wing I have been investing in, even the "new" Batteltech is looking exciting to me. I invested in "Robotech" (still waiting), but it all boils down to that they are not offering anything exciting and everyone else is AND I AM BUYING ELSEWHERE.

I do not think I am all that different from anyone else so this is the canary in the coalmine for me: they are rehashing and repackaging the same material and I am actually getting bored.
The only things saving them I swear is the Black Library churning out 40k stories by very talented authors so their "universe" is alive and fires the imagination.
If they did anything to mess with the novels I guarantee they would be done in a year.

I doubt that, while their novels are good they are a small portion of income.

I just think that really GW as a whole is unhealthy and really is going to go the way of the dinosaurs, yes it has been around for 30 years but that doesn't mean anything and if it does close it will be a sad day for the hobby.

 WarOne wrote:

 Ravenous D wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

 Tailgunner wrote:
There's a lot of rather selective reasoning going on here. For a start, the core of GW's business is its models. not the codexes.

The core of GW's business is a game called Warhammer 40000. Aside from to the minority who buy the models just to collect and/or paint them, the models sell because people play the game. So a decline in the quality of the game discourages model sales.

... - the Knight codex exists to sell the Knight model, ...

Yes, that's the point.

A better codex will do a better job of selling the models. Conversely, a worse codex...

This is why the future is worrisome to me, if the nid codex was crap in order to sell the formation patches then it means GW is going full on EA and will attempt to milk every penny they can. Not to mention they haven't done a proper FAQ in almost a year.

The people who do the FAQs probably are now the ones doing the dataslates.

Not enough manpower to go around...

The Design Studio has 125 members. That's plenty of staff, especially considering a lot of the material is recycled.

Hey! No playtesting takes a lot of time!

sparkywtf wrote:

 TheAuldGrump wrote:
And some of us are interested because it impacts upon the larger hobby (as opposed to the H-H-Hobby).

If GW were to fold tents tonight I would not shed a tear.

But if their leaving caused Victoria Lamb to close up shop? Kromlech? Maybe even Mantic? (Though Mantic is diversifying these days - the counts-as miniatures are becoming a minority, aside from KoW.)

Losing a market leader can have a bad effect on the industry as a whole.

The Auld Grump

While a legitimate fear of what will happen, I don't think it would be the end of those companies.

Victoria Lamb focuses on not IG, which are generic enough to fit in any sci fi range. I think she could survive just fine.

There's quite a lot of research around this issue; generally, if a market-leader fails, it is bad for the rest of the industry. It certainly happens in print media; when the News of the World folded, other newspapers anticipated bigger sales. But overall, sales are significantly down.

yes, if GW get bought by a competent , aggressive company this might be a good thing for the entire industry. But while GW's fall might delight some of the schadenfreude-addicts here, it will almost certainly be bad for the industry, and bad for gamers.

Bad for GW gaming gamers, certainly.

As for the rest?

I don't think you can definitively state that.

Well, obviously you can state it, but that doesn't make it true!

 Alpharius wrote:
Bad for GW gaming gamers, certainly.

As for the rest?

I don't think you can definitively state that.

Well, obviously you can state it, but that doesn't make it true!

I think t depends why a market leader fell. If it was due to a generally dying market, like news papers, that's very different from failure to adapt. minis gaming is a growth industry, GW is simply losing share to more nimble competition.

And GW won't disappear. It's IP alone is worth too much.

I also don't think that if GW would disappear all their revenue would siphon down to other companies.

With their (admittedly shrinking) street presence gone it would leave the market to local stores and the interwebs.

I find it odd that GW totes itself as a company who is in the business of selling models, yet they only have two games. These games have high to insane barriers of entry due to cost and time needed to put a painted army on the table; I'll call it fully engaged in the hobby. It is also telling that the intro product is $100 and provides virtually nothing of any value unless you want to play one of the armies in it, even then you have to buy $100s of models to be at a standard game level.

For MtG, WotC is in the business of selling cards. They sponsor rules for just about anyway you want to play. There are at least 10 different WotC endorsed formats where the rules are free and WotC is at least amicable to people coming up with their own formats, not crushing them under the legal hammer when they post about it online. A set of dual decks is $30.

If GW added more games that involved the same models (Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordeheim) they'd probably sell more models and sell the game rules as well if priced reasonably.

Barfolomew wrote:
I find it odd that GW totes itself as a company who is in the business of selling models, yet they only have two games. These games have high to insane barriers of entry due to cost and time needed to put a painted army on the table; I'll call it fully engaged in the hobby. It is also telling that the intro product is $100 and provides virtually nothing of any value unless you want to play one of the armies in it, even then you have to buy $100s of models to be at a standard game level.

For MtG, WotC is in the business of selling cards. They sponsor rules for just about anyway you want to play. There are at least 10 different WotC endorsed formats where the rules are free and WotC is at least amicable to people coming up with their own formats, not crushing them under the legal hammer when they post about it online. A set of dual decks is $30.

If GW added more games that involved the same models (Space Hulk, Necromunda, Mordeheim) they'd probably sell more models and sell the game rules as well if priced reasonably.

They have 3 games. Proof that no one is interested in a Lord of the Rings game, eh?

Anyway I totally agree with you. The Kill Team tournament my FLGS has planned for next month has more people excited than anything else. The store is encouraging people to pick up at least one box of models they don't already own or were at least purchased in-store in 2014, and even then we'll be out $40, $50 bucks to field the 200 points necessary. I'm hoping it gets more people interested in the hobby as there's a good chance they'll hire me to run the stores on Saturdays as we (I say we like I'm part of the store already) are planning on having Saturdays as a hobbyist corner day, where people can come in to learn how to paint, assemble, make terrain, whatever.

Given that GW likes to say it's a model company and not a gaming company, why are Elites and such like priced so high? The usual response from a GW staffer is that such things cost so much because you can't field that many. Surely if you are truly a "model" company this wouldn't matter.... or is that too cynical?

 SRSFACE wrote:
They have 3 games. Proof that no one is interested in a Lord of the Rings game, eh?

I don't disagree people are interested, it's just not selling to the volumes of Fantasy, let alone 40K.

 SRSFACE wrote:
Anyway I totally agree with you. The Kill Team tournament my FLGS has planned for next month has more people excited than anything else. The store is encouraging people to pick up at least one box of models they don't already own or were at least purchased in-store in 2014, and even then we'll be out $40, $50 bucks to field the 200 points necessary. I'm hoping it gets more people interested in the hobby as there's a good chance they'll hire me to run the stores on Saturdays as we (I say we like I'm part of the store already) are planning on having Saturdays as a hobbyist corner day, where people can come in to learn how to paint, assemble, make terrain, whatever.

We did a Necromumnda at my FLGS and most people bought new models for their gang, mainly because of the customization of each model. People had fun until rules issues (getting too far behind) caused people to start not showing up.

 Wolfstan wrote:
Given that GW likes to say it's a model company and not a gaming company, why are Elites and such like priced so high? The usual response from a GW staffer is that such things cost so much because you can't field that many. Surely if you are truly a "model" company this wouldn't matter.... or is that too cynical?

If they were really a company in the business of selling models and not games they would have a wider range of models spread over multitude of genres (hasslefree?) in order to widen the customer base , but strangely they only make models solely for the purpose of supporting 3 games.

The only point I want to touch on is the one about GW's increase in product releases.

Back when TSR went out of business, the Internet was a fledgling thing.

Now, with people used to switching phones every year (or even 6 months in some cases) and ousting the old in favor of the new, you really can't afford to let a product sit as it is for a long period of time. You HAVE to speed up production.

The change in release format, with WD coming out every week and single kits and one-off dataslates coming out each of those weeks, this is not GW going under, this is GW ramping up their competitive game-face. They want to secure their portion of the market by keeping their brand at the front of peoples' minds. By releasing more, even in smaller doses, they're keeping things fresh, whereas before we would go a whole month without really knowing what was coming next, now, with the way rumors work, often we don't go more than 5 days before we know about a new thing being released.

For GW, that's a good thing. It keeps us freaking out about what's coming next. What dataslate will upset the meta, what mini-dex will change peoples' armies, what models (that are INCREASING in quality) are going to be released next?

And of course, by releasing more, and releasing more often, they're keeping things fresh for newcomers. If a newb comes in one week and doesn't like what he sees, well he's not going to see that same thing for more than a few days. He'll see something else, some other big model on the cover of WD or some new kit on the shelf. That's a GREAT thing for drawing in new people. It shows that the brand is alive and well, and that new things are coming out all the time, even if the releases are relatively small each week.

I don't think GW is down and out. Yes, price increases, yes, their paint sucks (but have you noticed the increasing quality in their painting tutorials?) and yes, there seems to be a disconnect between GW and the BEARDY players. But there is not a disconnect between GW and their TARGET AUDIENCE.

Let's be real here. We're 25-60 year old gentlemen playing a game that GW is trying to market to 14-20 year-olds. The way the novels are written, the way the release schedule is going, the way the WD is worded, the way the tutorials are detailed, they're aiming at a younger demographic.

I think GW is ramping up for something bigger and better, and I can't wait to see it.

Let's be real here. We're 25-60 year old gentlemen playing a game that GW is trying to market to 14-20 year-olds. The way the novels are written, the way the release schedule is going, the way the WD is worded, the way the tutorials are detailed, they're aiming at a younger demographic.

Not so sure on the novels front. I've been listening to a ton of the audio books recently and they are very much adult orientated. The Horus Heresy ones certainly take the background in to a more dark and gritty place. The rest... yep I can well believe that.

drbored wrote:
there seems to be a disconnect between GW and the BEARDY players.

Accusing everyone who dislikes GW's current practices as being beardy?

Nice.

 Blacksails wrote:

drbored wrote:
there seems to be a disconnect between GW and the BEARDY players.

Accusing everyone who dislikes GW's current practices as being beardy?

Nice.

I made a generalized statement about GW seeming to have a disconnect with their veteran players that want the company to go in all sorts of other directions.

If the ONLY thing you want to take from that is offense, be my guest.

The problem I see with your argument is that you claim (as does GW) that the target is a younger group (say your 14-20) however that group does not have the income to drop $500 to START an army let alone get it painted and usable. Now you could say that parents are going to foot that bill but I see parents far more willing to spend 60 bucks on the latest xbox or ps game that won't require them to throw out the minis and paint and brushes (and their money) once timmy gets bored in a couple of weeks.

As to your other points, the new rapid release schedule has been to my experience (flgs and dakka) widely unpopular as the rules are overcosted, lacking depth, and copy/paste jobs that are not adding anything meaningful. These new releases are not "keeping things fresh" because they were already there. Inquisition cool but you didn't add anything. LotD oh wow its the same unit that is in C:SM but now I get to have my 1 wound sergeant a warlord trait.

This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

Well, if GW collapsed overnight IMO it would only be bad for people who play only GW games.

The rest of us would continue with our Ancients/X-Wing/Infinity/Bolt Action and so on.

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

How's the Kool-Aid?

 FirePainter wrote:
Now you could say that parents are going to foot that bill but I see parents far more willing to spend 60 bucks on the latest xbox or ps game that won't require them to throw out the minis and paint and brushes (and their money) once timmy gets bored in a couple of weeks.

Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills. There's still strong word-of-mouth buzz about 40k at my nipper's school; if the percentage takeup is mirrored by the larger population, that age range would deliver the bulk of GW's UK revenue.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Now you could say that parents are going to foot that bill but I see parents far more willing to spend 60 bucks on the latest xbox or ps game that won't require them to throw out the minis and paint and brushes (and their money) once timmy gets bored in a couple of weeks.

Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills. There's still strong word-of-mouth buzz about 40k at my nipper's school; if the percentage takeup is mirrored by the larger population, that age range would deliver the bulk of GW's UK revenue.

How does this work in connection to all this new stuff that GW is churning out? Surely a parent is going to buy little Timmy the intro stuff, squads, a vehicle and paints / glue. Are they really going to pay for a Knight or some "random" new bit of kit? Especially as the argument is that this investment will get little Timmy interacting with other children. What the hell is little Timmy going to do with a Knight? Not get a game that's for sure. This brings us back to the TSR comparison. Loads of releases and the limited budget of gamer's, which appears to be a valid concern (from gamer's that is)

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:

 FirePainter wrote:
Now you could say that parents are going to foot that bill but I see parents far more willing to spend 60 bucks on the latest xbox or ps game that won't require them to throw out the minis and paint and brushes (and their money) once timmy gets bored in a couple of weeks.

Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills. There's still strong word-of-mouth buzz about 40k at my nipper's school; if the percentage takeup is mirrored by the larger population, that age range would deliver the bulk of GW's UK revenue.

I agree that it would be better to get kids doing things that are social and/or active. And as I am not a parent I really cannot say for certain I simply know what I see from parents around me and most are not knowledgable about miniatures and use tv/video games as a cheap babysitter. I am in a low population area in rural US and I will admit that I have no knowledge of the UK so everything I say is annicdotal.

 FirePainter wrote:

I agree that it would be better to get kids doing things that are social and/or active. And as I am not a parent I really cannot say for certain I simply know what I see from parents around me and most are not knowledgable about miniatures and use tv/video games as a cheap babysitter. I am in a low population area in rural US and I will admit that I have no knowledge of the UK so everything I say is annicdotal.

Sure, my example is anecdotal too. Seven kids out of 180, age 11-13 play; HIve Fleet jr's nids, plus IG, Space Marines, Chaos, 2 x Necrons and Tau, plus one or two other kids who've played with their brothers' stuff. The bulk of them are spending a significant amount, let's say £100 plus a year, over aroud three years now. Space Marines kid has recently given up, Chaos is being badgered to do so by his parents.

I'm not suggesting this is necessarily a representative sample. But it does suggest that the notion of teenagers being the key purchasers is not at all ludicrous.

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

Shrinking sales, flat revenue (after a long period of deep cost cutting) and a falling share price in a growing niche market?

Very strong indeed.

blingman wrote:
This thread brings me enjoyment somewhat, like many of the anti GW threads, a strange sense of satisfaction that Gw is going from strength to strength, and its plain to see that a lot of posters just don't like this fact.
It stems from jealousy I think, the uk has the top spot in wargaming and some folk just cannot take it.
Bottom line is Gw is fine and IS the hobby to most people.

There is so much wrong with this comment I dont no where to start.

GW is not going from strength to strength. Their sales are down and so is their revenue this is after massive downsizing. They are in no danger whatsoever of folding anytime soon but from strength to strength seems to ignore everything we know about their financial situation.

What the hell has nationalism got to do with this? Do you really think peoples disappointment in GW's policies comes from some deep seeded hatred of the UK. Peoples complaints about GW are not some form of masked Jingosim.

The only part I agree with is the last part. GW is fine, weakening but fine and they are certainly the hobby to many people. But I have no idea where you got the rest of your post from.

 Hivefleet Oblivion wrote:
Most parents I know would prefer to have their kids playing something that's social and demands patience and motor skills.

One could describe playing X-box as exactly that. I think you meant constructive and creative.