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So here's an update on the GW Bowie store. Yesterday was the last day of the current multi-person staff setup. When the store reopens on Wednesday it will be a one-man store. Duane, the current manager, has agreed to stay a couple more months while GW searches for a new store operator. The store will now be open 35 hours per week. Saturdays will be 11am-9pm.

Check https://www.facebook.com/GWBowie for updates, new hours, etc.

When does their lease expire? That's the date they shut down the (former) bunker.

 Breotan wrote:
When does their lease expire? That's the date they shut down the (former) bunker.

It expires in about 2 years. Here's a little good news, I've been told by the current manager that the guy in charge right now does not automatically shut down stores when the lease expires IF the store is making money. In other words, support your local store if you want to keep it. And for anyone reading this that is a regular customer at GW Bowie, it's apparently not hopeless to continue to be a regular customer.

Personally, I'll miss the current employees a lot and the now former store setup. However, I do still plan to patronize the store as it's very convenient for me to meet with friends and paint models together there. I purchase merchandise there to some degree every month and I plan to continue doing so. I hope others will also continue to support the store.

Hope to see you there!

bare in mind that if it's now a 1 man store they may not be so keen on having you in painting there especially as they'll need to cut the store size down considerably. Hopefully you'll still be allowed to continue your hobbying there though

Herzlos wrote:
bare in mind that if it's now a 1 man store they may not be so keen on having you in painting there especially as they'll need to cut the store size down considerably. Hopefully you'll still be allowed to continue your hobbying there though

I'm pretty sure it's already been said the store will remain the same size and all if the tables will remain. Something may have changed though.

BrassScorpion, of course they'll say that... but with the size of that store, it's not going to make enough money to stay open in that space once the lease is up.

Well with several less salaries (and associatd costs) to pay it might be OK

(although the in store experience will not be as good)

I'm just pointing out- I live in Maryland, and for example, the Arundel Mills mall store was closed, despite being in a fantastic location for foot traffic and sales, due to the high lease price (afaik).

This store is several times the size of any other "one-man" store. I find it completely implausible that GW, given their pattern of behavior and business practices, would leave it open after the lease has ended.

Maybe another store would be opened at some indeterminate time after this one was closed, which is exactly what happened with this store after the previous Bunker closed... but gamers don't just sit around in the interim and many migrate to other stores.

I see this giving the independents in the area a boost, and who knows, maybe another independent will open close to this space after this store is gone.

Sorry if it sounds pessimistic, but I'm just being realistic here- the stores in Maryland (and everywhere?) seem to have a shelf life and once they're past that are quickly closed. I have been pleased to see the store in Columiba, MD hang on, as the manager is a great guy... but the pattern with GW is very, very clear... and I think the writing is on the wall for the "bunker" being run as a 1-man store.

 Samurai_Eduh wrote:

Herzlos wrote:
bare in mind that if it's now a 1 man store they may not be so keen on having you in painting there especially as they'll need to cut the store size down considerably. Hopefully you'll still be allowed to continue your hobbying there though

I'm pretty sure it's already been said the store will remain the same size and all if the tables will remain. Something may have changed though.

I'd be curious to find out if that's the case, because their usual form is to partition off the unused space, which explains why they are closing for 3 days instead of just opening with less staff.

It almost means that you get to get kicked out when the staffer is getting lunch, or has to take any other breaks.

Lease there is stupidly cheap. At least for the first go round. No idea what it could of would do after the lease is up ( about 2 years left on it) I would expect it to close regardless.

There is still 3 other stores in MD and 2 more with in reach in northern VA. If the Bowie store gets a new manager who can make the sort of money that the bunker pulled on his own then he has a shot. The New Head of North America has a different view of store closing then Sandra Casey did so who really knows.

The loose policy as I understand it is not to have more than one or two shops in a city. And with the cost of doing business in a higher cost of living area they can open more stores in a lower cost of living area, so that is where the "closings" make sense to GW.

And the store is not changing a bit in size or shape. As of last week anyway.

Why is it closing for 3 days then? Assuming it still is closed for 3 days.

If the current manager is staying on there's no training requirements, and if the shop isn't changing shape there's no reordering or shopfitting requirements. Unless he's just taken 3 days off.

I believe they just do that as a bit of a break, they did the same in Memphis afaik.

Yes, there are other stores in Maryland, but if you've been here for a while you know of GW's typical "churn"... open a store for several years, then close it and open another in a different area. I haven't seen anything indicating this has changed, and turning the "Bunker" into a 1-man store is more of the same policy. In short, I'll believe there's a policy change when it is evident... right now, all signs point to the policy being exactly "churn and burn" like it has been (if anything, it's been moreso in the last several years).

All of the other bunkers have closed, World of Battle at the NA HQ has closed... what hope does Bowie have?

I'm not sure what GW's plans are for NA, but one thing their plan(s) doesn't seem to include is support for their product or strengthening the HHHobby community.

IMO, who ever is running the show wants to run the company and their store fronts like a retail outlet only. This is unfitting of their product and shows clearly that the decision makers don't understand their own product.

"Product"... This is such a misunderstood term and one I don't think GW even understands completely. GW's product is NOT models. GW's product is an 'ecosystem'. An ecosystem of interconnecting and interacting parts. GW's ecosystem depends on: fiction, game rules & models. The rules & models cannot survive without the other and none will thrive without a community.

The rent is really cheapish in the current location because there's no store front, which is why GW picked it even though there were much better suites available at Hilltop Plaza at the time the store was opened. Unfortunately, penny-wise-pound-foolish GW didn't think of how much not having a store front would hurt potential walk-in traffic. That long hallway is a walk-in killer for many potential new customers.

The large space behind what used to be a comic book store was the rental office management suite for Hilltop Plaza. The management made GW an offer they couldn't refuse to get them to take the combined huge space and GW always interested in cheap rent did so.

Not having a nice large window store front like every other business at Hilltop has definitely hurt the store though. People have been coming in for years now saying, "I didn't know this was here" because it's so hard to spot it having only a single door width in the front and that obscured from some angles by a pillar. Many potential customers look in the door, can't see much due to the long hallway, and decide to move on because they don't want to take the long walk into the unknown.

Here are the new store hours, just posted today:

Hello every one here are the new store hours now that I can get to my account sorry for the last minute post.

Mon. Closed
Tues. closed
Wed. 12 to 6
Thur. 12 to 5
Fri. 12 to 8
Sat. 11 to 9
Sun. 12 to 6

The store will close for lunch at 3pm.
See every one this week!!!

The size of the store is remaining the same.

"Churn and Burn" is a fairly accurate statement. It simply has to do with income. The more money the shop makes the more likely it will stay open. The issue becomes the NA HQ rotates about every 4 years and the plans come from the UK to be implement in the US, some times those implementations vary a lot from Head to Head. The current head of NA stopped several stores across the country from being closed because they were making money. Even though the previous head decided to close them due to their lease being up. They very rarely break a lease. He does not want shops that are producing profit to close. Not when there are several "new" shop out there that are making significantly less then what they should be making and have years left on their lease.

The fact remains the policy is for all stores to be small-ish and have only 1 staff member. Minimal rent and stock, Maximum return on investment. The folks that run these shops are in constant struggle to make numbers regardless of the release. I am sure those guys riding the line this month are super excited that what they have to sell to help them make the numbers is $30 clippers! Or a $150 cloth bag set that used to coast $120 had more tools and came with a FIGURE CASE! I digress. Malls are done and as they can, they will get out of any location that requires more than one person to run the shop that is fact. No matter the lasting damage that does to the customer in lack of support or community in which to gorw and share the hobby they spend their hard earned money on. Gone are the days of big events and mega games as the norm. There is simply not enough space or staff to pulls these off. Now there a some great people running some of these shops who do their level best to make it a place you want to be and spend your money but they are not the majority. Most of those guys have been forced out or phased out because of circumstance or they have the " Old GW" mindset and that is not what the current GW wants. More digressing...... GW is aware of all of this for sure they simply don't seem to care. Have not quite figured that out.

MD should be ready for a changing landscape for sure. Owings Mills has never made any money and the lease should be up this year ( to the best of my knowledge they do/did a 4 year lease but some have been 5 with up to 7 year options on some as well ) I would be shocked if it does not get closed. Lake Shore had a slow start but has been making its way to where it should be. It should have a year or more left on it's lease. It is any ones guess as to what they do with it. Columbia has done well over the years and doing better now in the absence of Olney but its lease should be up this year. Olney more than likely would have been kept open under the new leadership, Its all about timing. I would look to see them keep Bowie and Lake Shore, strictly on lease length Columbia is making money so it will be interesting to see if they renuew the lease. When the lease is up in Bowie then I would expect to see it gone. It simple does not fit the business model handed down by the UK. Its really any ones guess. Its all about the lease terms an cost of square footage. I have heard tell the are looking not to break $20 a square foot for their lease space. I get they are a company and they are doing what all companies do, make the most money with the least investment. At what point do you cut and slash the identity of what made you who you are into something that those who helped you get their no longer recognize? Who wants to spend the kind of money GW is asking and basically be told to get out and figure it out on your own after buying it? Its a head scratcher to be sure.

 BrassScorpion wrote:

 Breotan wrote:
When does their lease expire? That's the date they shut down the (former) bunker.

It expires in about 2 years. Here's a little good news, I've been told by the current manager that the guy in charge right now does not automatically shut down stores when the lease expires IF the store is making money.

Yea... that's what they told the guy who took over after they "transformed" the Seattle bunker into a one-man shop. Now that shop is closed and that guy is (or at least was) unemployed. The problem is, GW is still paying rent on all that space they don't use any more. Once the lease is up, they'll close it down and "maybe" move to a nearby location. Maybe being the operative word.

 Captain Vyper wrote:
The current head of NA stopped several stores across the country from being closed because they were making money. Even though the previous head decided to close them due to their lease being up. They very rarely break a lease. He does not want shops that are producing profit to close. Not when there are several "new" shop out there that are making significantly less then what they should be making and have years left on their lease.

It's just amazing that this is a new policy that deserves special mention. How stupid do you have to be to mindlessly close your stores whenever the lease expires, even if they're making money?

 RiTides wrote:
I'm just pointing out- I live in Maryland, and for example, the Arundel Mills mall store was closed, despite being in a fantastic location for foot traffic and sales, due to the high lease price (afaik)..

I can tell you I opened a store for my company in Arundel Mills. For the square footage they would have to pay several thousand. Assuming the size of 2000 sq ft, they might pay around 8000 per month.

Malls are moving from low end to high end right now, focusing on dollars per square foot. No matter how much GW may cut costs, if the GW store does not meet a certain dollars/square foot criteria, they are booted out.

They were not booted in this case, as far as I know- they chose to close. Most malls won't tolerate a "closed Mondays and Tuesdays" schedule, either, of course.

The policy of closing stores is not so much new as it is blanket and not specific to the store. Its very much part of the one man plan that is about 5 years old at this point. NA operates about 90-100 stores at this point. Every thing is looked at when the lease comes up. The desire is to have at least one store in all the major cities. To do this you close an old store that probably has a higher paid rent/lease staff, and has already provided you with customers who will continue to buy your product regardless of if you are selling it to them from a retail shop or not. You can then open a new store in a new area with smaller square footage a new crowed to "condition" and pay an entry level person. You save money all the way around. By the time the store get to the higher sales tiers and you are paying the employee more money its lease is up and you can rotate the shop.

Should the first guy knock sales out of the park the business model is for continuous increase in sales that requires the employee to make more money then they did last year if they cant in @ 6 months of not doing so they fire them or they quit from the pressure. New guys comes in and maybe makes the numbers up. If not they fire him. Now your into about year 2 1/2. A 3rd guy shows up and because of @ 1 year of declining sales puts the shop "back on track" and is heralded as a hero even though the shop is making less money then they were with the original employee. now the shop has about a year left on its lease guess what happens then? Sounds crazy right, its EXACTLY what goes on ALL the time. Now it sounds harsh and we love the shops/hobby/community but honestly what company is going to let a business lose money for 6 months and not make a change? They are a business.


For sure the rent in the mills mall was crazy high and the square footage was no where near 2000, At one time that store was one of the most profitable in the country. However the "business model" was for one man shops and as any shop that dose not fit the model comes near to its lease end it will be closed. That was previous leadership. Under current NA leadership it appears that there will be some exceptions or extensions to that policy. I do still see them closing all multi staff stores eventually, just those that are not making their money first while letting those that are hang on a bit longer.

Bunkers are a thing of past ideal and culture that is why they are all going. Its en effort to erase what was for what is now. Right or wrong from ones perspective.

Mills were more "forced to chose" to close. They were informed the rent was increasing in the neighborhood of 30% IIRC due to the impending casino that is now at the mall. I believe the store might still be there had the mall not drove the already mall crazy rent up like they did. Several shops in the mall chose to get out wen that hike hit. Also no mall shop runs one man hours ie closed Monday Tuesdays. They are contractually obligated to be open and close for all malls hours. They are fined if they open late, close early, or do not open at all. Thus the need for multi staff and the reason GW is getting out of malls.

That whole model ignores the cost of starting up a new store, training a new employee, etc. Also ignores the bad PR from continually closing stores.

What's the point of having a store? GW doesn't need it to sell models. Presumably it's to attract new people to play the game but even that is becoming less effective with the business model they've chosen.

In the end it's a very good thing for independent stores as GW drives itself out of the hobby store business. Why they are in that business at all at this point is a real question, imo, given the way they approach it (very ineffectually). Any business knows it's not just about the numbers- perhaps a storefront is a loss leader to hook someone into an expensive hobby. Creating bad press by continually closing those stores thereby negates that benefit.

You might say they clearly know what they're doing, but imo that's not the case. Just look at the Maryland bunker as an example. Old bunker location, old manager? Running an extremely successful independent FLGS in the exact same prior bunker location, with the exact same manager. All the business that was going to GW in that location is now going to an independent.

That would make sense, if GW could make up it's mind, and just wanted independents to sell their stuff for them. But instead, they open up another Bunker for a few years, in a location that was supposedly accessible from Baltimore and D.C. but really was from neither. They then adjust it to a 1-man shop and will probably close it.

This move did not generate very many new players/sales (very little foot traffic) other than from existing fans. And many of those fans are frequenting the previous Bunker location (if you could reach the old Bunker, you can reach the FLGS that is now in it's place). It even has tons of painting stations set up, tons of gaming space- it is a GW store in all but name, and the fact that it sells tons of other lines too, such as Warmachine.

So what did GW gain by closing down a Bunker, opening a new one in an obscure, no-foot-traffic location, reducing it to a 1-man store, and likely closing it down in a few years?

Absolutely nothing. The independent FLGS, on the other hand, has gained quite a bit. If it's "business", then one business is clearly smarter than the other, at least at this local level... and the smarter one certainly isn't GW.

Sorry if that was long, but I can't stomach an argument that it made good business sense for GW to behave as it did. The only good business sense that it made was for their competition, which are now thriving in the same location that used to be exclusively GW, but now sells all manner of hobby products / games. Heck, there's a giant Dreamforge Leviathan on the front counter (or was for some time). That is just a small snapshot of the result of GW's actions in this area. Personally, I think the area is much better for it... but don't tell me it was a good business decision, because it's pretty clear by the success of the OTHER business (the independent) that it was a policy decision, pure and simple... not a good business one.

While I agree with you on a lot of points and believe we are on the same side of the discussion, we are just talking here I hope. I think there is a little needs clarity.

Their initial training program has changed so many times in the last few years its a joke, currently I believe its about two days. You don't have to have hobby or sales experience! Out side of paperwork and the basic drug screen and background check the cost its nothing and its all written off anyways so does it cost them anything? Setting up a shop does cost some money to be sure but again its a write off and if they put it in a cheap location with lower rent and over all wage to the employee how is that costing them any real money? I don't like it but not liking it dose not mean its bad for the business or that its not true. Same side here. Bad PR, sticky issue. Lots of guys come and go in the hobby all the time. When some one quits, if they sell their stuff, who ever buys it usually need something to finish it off. Other people get in when others get out and need all the paint and start up stuff. Lots of guys quit for a while but have too much invested to let it go and get back in later. This really isn't any different then Gamestop guys getting into and out of Xbox of PlayStation games consoles etc. I have been on the shop side of this for so long I can honestly tell you its a wash. For every butt hurt guy there is a new guy getting in. Just my experience talking on that.

Total over all goal of GW shops is to get new people into the hobby pure and simple that is the solo purpose for their existence.

I used to think GW would never "drive them selves out of business" thought they were just to big to do that. Now I am re thinking that. Not sure what else crazy they can do. BUT and that's an all caps BUT here. Having seen sales figure/volume on some of the releases over the years even recent ones. There is still PLENTY of people buying their product! I personally believe if they were to go it would be devastating to the mini industry. IMO there are so many companies out there that purely exist off of the culture of GW. What good what head swaps do or FW knock offs or laser Cut terrain if the juggernaut that brings thousands of customers into the hobby a year went away. The volume vacuum would kill the mini industry, I dont think a lot of the small companies would survive, I dont think they could do enough volume to stay operating. They need the people who GW got into mini gaming and left GW to see their game. Like it or not I think GW is the best advertisement for other mini companies. Every one seems to live to Hate GW but would a lot of the games on the market today even exist if there was not a GW to get mass appeal into non historical mini games. Honestly answer that question for your self. I think not. Again just because it may be the truth don't mean its right or likable but if its a fact, then it is what it is. Just talking here, simply my opinion.

They did not close down the bunker to close down the bunker. It was attached to the HQ that left the area and consolidated operations in TN. More of a causality of the move than anything else. Their lease was for all the space so the bunker went when HQ went pure and simple. The consolidation saved GW a lot of money. It let them leave behind salaries that did not wish to move to TN and allowed them to restructure the positions in TN at lower salaries or merge positions that may pay more to one employee but over all pays less than both old ones. Plus a whole host of other saving to the Company.

Like I said before good for them as a business more sucks for us. Same side here.

Now the shop currently in the old bunker spot, . GW is STILL making money out of that location every thing they sell that is GW makes GW money! Only now its cost GW NOTHING to sell it there.This is what I was saying about closing old shops. The customers are so deep in the product they will keep buying it no matter the source. GW created the desire and who ever sells it fills it. Sick but true. They just make a lot more profit off of their own stores then they do most retailers. There are some retailers who do so much volume it covers the lower price but they are a minority. The current shop appears to be doing fine hopefully they will be around a long time. I have a question just for thought. If they did not carry GW product or run GW tournaments would they still be doing as well as you say they are doing? How is that bad business for GW?

The Bunker should have stayed Gone the new location has a host of issue with it but in the end it would probably have been better off not reopening.

Look like I said before I am on the same side of a lot of your points. I just have experience from both side of the counter. I don't agree A LOT of what they are doing from a fan stand point, but from a business one there is a reason they have been in business in one form or another since 1975. Name me one other mini company that old that dose what GW does. Again not saying I like it but facts are facts, and maybe the they are headed out the door. Who takes over as the industry leader in innovation in developing technology? Priveteer/Mantic/Battlefront? Do you believe any of those guys could do for the industry as a whole what GW can? Just a thought.

I know this has been long for sure but its been interesting discussion.

 Captain Vyper wrote:
Now the shop currently in the old bunker spot, . GW is STILL making money out of that location every thing they sell that is GW makes GW money! Only now its cost GW NOTHING to sell it there.This is what I was saying about closing old shops. The customers are so deep in the product they will keep buying it no matter the source. GW created the desire and who ever sells it fills it. Sick but true. They just make a lot more profit off of their own stores then they do most retailers. There are some retailers who do so much volume it covers the lower price but they are a minority. The current shop appears to be doing fine hopefully they will be around a long time. I have a question just for thought. If they did not carry GW product or run GW tournaments would they still be doing as well as you say they are doing? How is that bad business for GW?

It's bad for business because that store also stocks stuff that isn't GW. There's no walled garden keeping the customers unaware of the competition. Whilst it's still selling GW, it's also selling stuff that customers may not have even known about if it was still a GW.

From what it seems, few of those customers that leave GW come back, and given the significant price differential, exposing gamers to non-GW stuff is pretty bad for GW in the long run.

Yeah, that's all I meant- in the end, it's really good for gamers to have access to independent stores. And if it is in GW's business plan to close stores that are then replaced with independents (again with the aforementioned Dreamforge Leviathan on the front counter and a whole wall of Warmachine) then I think that is very good for wargaming in general.

What's really puzzling was their re-opening the Bunker a few years later in a less ideal location, with very little foot traffic. This was redundant if they're getting sales from the independent store, while still not bringing in many new players due to the location they chose, and so seemed to serve no purpose at all! But I see that you acknowledged this so I appreciate that

No worries on the long discussion, I appreciate your honest thoughts on this!

I think you may not be giving the customer enough credit. I hardly believe they are walking around with blinders on oblivious to the world of mini not made by GW. I have been in that shop and was there when it opened. While they do sell other systems they are very helpful in providing you with alternate models in which to play GW games with. The staff and partners are mostly previous GW guys so there is a pervasive GW feel to the shop but one from the old days where it was about the hobby not laser focused the business and that is fantastic! The location closed no more money for GW from that location, it reopened as an independent that sell GW for them, now they are making money there again. Plus they still have 15 to 20 more stores across the US alone then they did when that location closed. Making sales from all of those locations. Sounds like its working to me.

As for the turn over. Well I have seen it all, guys come and go. Guys try a different game and the company goes belly up. Then they come back. Guys go to other system and for all the flaws with the GW rules who game system has the largest turn out at the big cons, who's system has been plugging away since the 70's, they come back to the GW rules set. For all they guys that leave there a more showing up for the first time. Maybe not in your area but its happening.

Price is WAY out of whack no argument at all there. HOWEVER the money keeps coming in. Enough at least to allow them to continue what ever they are doing. You have to eat chopped liver to know how much better a grade A stake is. (apologizes to all you liver lovers). Now you as the customer get to choose to like liver or steak, and as long as you like it who the hell cares what some one else likes.

GW have something like 400 stores world wide! You can't do that if your business model dosnt work. So what if a few close and reopen every month. Its when they don't reopen somewhere else that tells you there is an issue. How many retail shops globally does any other GW competitor have?

Look I much prefer the old model where to focus was on community and a shop where you could go that you never wanted to leave and there was always something awesome going on, prizes and wacky events. But those days for GW are gone and I think that is a mistake. They have replaced that with some staff who don't know a thing about the hobby and are focused on purely the money. But ya know what? Ask a car salesmen or an insurance salesmen if their corporate level boss cares as long as they make their numbers. Bet they don't.

A shop that sells is very different from one that vends. If the guy with the shop shirt on can make you happy while he sells you,He makes good money and his shop does well. Independent retailer or GW no difference there. Venders rotate all the time because they dont have the skill set to do the job, they just ring up what ever you put on the counter.

 Captain Vyper wrote:
I have been in that shop and was there when it opened. While they do sell other systems they are very helpful in providing you with alternate models in which to play GW games with. The staff and partners are mostly previous GW guys so there is a pervasive GW feel to the shop but one from the old days where it was about the hobby not laser focused the business and that is fantastic!

Well, we are in full agreement here! I loved it when it was a GW bunker, and I love it now. I've decided to vote with my wallet and often convert third party models (in fact I just finished an entire army made up of Trollforged models that I took to AdeptiCon, two pics in those links if you're interested ). The fact that I can use them in that location now is a welcome change since it is an independent store!

In the end, I think we're more on the same page than not, and I appreciate the PMs, too. I agree that GW is successful and makes a lot of money. But I don't agree with everything that they do, and closing the Bunker here really pushed me into using third party models, since I no longer had any reason not to. Again, I think those kinds of things can be good for wargaming (if done well) but were not necessarily the wisest business decisions on GW's part. Another very analogous one is no longer being involved in tournaments, opening the door to third party model use there, too. As I mentioned, I used that army at AdeptiCon this past month, and people told me that they loved playing against it (or so they told me ).

It also allows people to try third party games- I am just about to participate in an Infinity league. But I still love playing some GW games, and love using converted models, so don't get me wrong! For example, I'm also using a mix of Forgeworld and third party models for a chaos dwarf army for an upcoming league at my local store. So, win-win! And a broader wargaming experience for everybody

Yup Tom is good people and while I am more of a purist and very rarely mix model lines I have no real issue when people do it as long as it fits what it should be but thats another topic.

Those are some really really creepy models you have there. Nice job.

Thanks again for the discussion.