Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I doubt the Emperor needed to see Horus flay some guy, Horus had done worse and big e was'nt the most sentimental guy anyway. Just more imperial propaganda which adds to the grimdarkness of this story, think of all the Guardmen thinking of this lie as they charge enemy lines its beautiful.

I think the point was that the Emperor SEEING Horus flay some guy drove the point home because the Emperor actually saw it instead of just... heard about it or whatever. Those sorts of "firsthand" things make things a lot more personal and would do a lot to make a biased mind (like the Emperor, who still loved his son) realize the truth.

 da001 wrote:
Woah, chill out, dude. Nobody is accusing you of anything.

Aah I must have gotten you mixed up with somebody else then. I’m sorry for yelling at you.

 da001 wrote:
I am actually giving you reasonings. Lots of them. You may agree with them or not, but I never said you were just inventing stuff. You said Pius was alone and I pointed out that he was supposed to be a part of a strike force. You asked how it was possible for him to survive till that point and I pointed out that, as part of a powerful fighting force... why not?

Unless I have missed something, your reasoning for Pius managing to reach the Emperor alive, is that he was part of a larger party? Okay fine, here is the problem see with that.

In all of the three variants of the story, be it the one with the imperial fist terminator, the Custodes or Pius, all of them have one thing in common. Only a singular person shows up to defend the Emperor. It’s singular as in one person, not plural as in a party.

So towards the end there was no party for Pius to travel with, otherwise they too would have been present at the final scene. This means that Pius, a normal human if we go by the old version, would have to find his way through the halls of a ship that has become a cradle for Chaos. The guy would be deader than dead.

Anyways this is my take on it. Feel free disagree if you want.

 da001 wrote:
Being immortal is above or beyond human, a supernatural power (first definition).
Being immortal is an ability or power beyond ordinary or normal (second definition).

Immortals are not by definition superhuman. However, immortals can and often are portrayed in fiction as superhuman.

Pius is mortal for the reason highlighted below. He is not a superhuman in the context of 40K. I sincerely hope we at least can agree on that.

im•mor•tal (ĭ-môr′tl)
adj.
1. Not subject to death: immortal deities; the immortal soul.
2. Never to be forgotten; everlasting: immortal words.
3. Of or relating to immortality.
4. Biology Capable of indefinite growth or division. Used of cells in culture.
n.
1. One not subject to death.
2. One whose fame is enduring.

 da001 wrote:
It seems you are claiming that we have human beings, superhuman beings, subhuman beings, abhuman beings... and then immortals. Immortals are superhumans. They fit the definition you gave (both of them).

Here is what I claim: space marine = superhuman. The Empeor = superhuman/immortal. Pius (Perpetual) = immortal.

 da001 wrote:
I doubt someone here is "upset" by the changes on Pius´ story.

You doubt someone here is upset with the changes to Pius story? You and I must exist in two different dimensions then.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521540.page

 da001 wrote:
In my case, I am at most "slightly irked" about the Perpetuals thing, with Pius being related to it.

Also, after reading your previous post about Pius, you strike me as someone who is more than just a tad bit “irked” by it.

 da001 wrote:
The new version IS a turd, and worth nothing.

 da001 wrote:
Also, the new version makes it a part of the Perpetuals´ class-A turd.

 da001 wrote:
Seriously, sometimes it seems that you are upset about people disliking the new version.

I’m not upset, so you needn’t fret over it my friend.

 da001 wrote:
And I don´t think we are a "minority". This is a fallacy I keep seeing in some posts: that the people complaining about something on a forum are a "minority". Nowadays everyone have Internet, everyone can tell the rest of the world his/her opinion about anything. If the vast majority of the people writing in forums about 40k claim that, say, the tyranid codex is bad, or that the old version of the Pius´ story was better, then it is most probable that the vast majority of the people think the same. We are a non-biased sample.

Ugh… What?

 da001 wrote:
Good to see we agree in something: perpetuals are a really bad idea.

I think it’s an lazy idea, but I can still see potential in it so long it is handle by a decent author *coughDan Abnettcough*.

That's okay, I still think it was a Imperial Fist Terminator that got in the way and Pious was a fictional addition to bolster the sign up rate within the Imperial Guard....I mean..."Insert new silly name for the Guard here".

Well, the Astra Militarum codex has a relic for him so presumably the Imperial Guard THINKS he was a normal trooper at the very least. Not that I've seen the fluff text accompanying the relic yet.

Does it make the bearer fer double-retconned?

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:
Woah, chill out, dude. Nobody is accusing you of anything.

Aah I must have gotten you mixed up with somebody else then. I’m sorry for yelling at you.

Ok then

 da001 wrote:
I am actually giving you reasonings. Lots of them. You may agree with them or not, but I never said you were just inventing stuff. You said Pius was alone and I pointed out that he was supposed to be a part of a strike force. You asked how it was possible for him to survive till that point and I pointed out that, as part of a powerful fighting force... why not?

Unless I have missed something, your reasoning for Pius managing to reach the Emperor alive, is that he was part of a larger party? Okay fine, here is the problem see with that.

In all of the three variants of the story, be it the one with the imperial fist terminator, the Custodes or Pius, all of them have one thing in common. Only a singular person shows up to defend the Emperor. It’s singular as in one person, not plural as in a party.

So towards the end there was no party for Pius to travel with, otherwise they too would have been present at the final scene. This means that Pius, a normal human if we go by the old version, would have to find his way through the halls of a ship that has become a cradle for Chaos. The guy would be deader than dead.

Anyways this is my take on it. Feel free disagree if you want.

If I am to pick a single explanation, I will go with the "it is just propaganda". Pius never existed, it is just a tale.

"To be a man in such times is to be one amongst untold billions", that is written in every description of the setting. But the tale of Pius says a different thing: a human can make a difference. He can sacrifice his life for the Emperor (for humanity) and the split second he is getting may be enough to make a difference. A single human being can make a difference. This is what the legend of Pius says. It is also the concept behind the Imperial Guard: they are afraid, they die, but they make a difference.

It is somehow a legend that is being told to us, the players, too. Sometimes it seems the setting is completely inhuman. But this legend says otherwise: humans can make a difference. It is a nice tale.

In the new version, we have an inhuman, superhuman, immortal, call it what you want... he is not a human being, and he is doing a meaningless sacrifice. He has already died a million times. Death is nothing for him. Even if it is somehow a "real" death and the character is not resurrected in 30 seconds, he will probably welcome it out of boredom. It has no merit.

 da001 wrote:
Being immortal is above or beyond human, a supernatural power (first definition).
Being immortal is an ability or power beyond ordinary or normal (second definition).

Immortals are not by definition superhuman. However, immortals can and often are portrayed in fiction as superhuman.

Pius is mortal for the reason highlighted below. He is not a superhuman in the context of 40K. I sincerely hope we at least can agree on that.

im•mor•tal (ĭ-môr′tl)
adj.
1. Not subject to death: immortal deities; the immortal soul.
2. Never to be forgotten; everlasting: immortal words.
3. Of or relating to immortality.
4. Biology Capable of indefinite growth or division. Used of cells in culture.
n.
1. One not subject to death.
2. One whose fame is enduring.

 da001 wrote:
It seems you are claiming that we have human beings, superhuman beings, subhuman beings, abhuman beings... and then immortals. Immortals are superhumans. They fit the definition you gave (both of them).

Here is what I claim: space marine = superhuman. The Empeor = superhuman/immortal. Pius (Perpetual) = immortal.

It is funny how many arguments here boil down to semantics.... I think that immortals fit the definition (both of them) you gave for superhumans. Which means that immortals are superhumans.

I get your idea though: you seem to think that Perpetuals are not superhuman/powerful/badasses. You seem to think that their only power is to be immortal.

That´s not the case. In a setting where knowledge is power and significance to the plot means combat prowess, Perpetuals are incredibly powerful. They are skilled to stupid levels, and have more powers and resources than many characters.

In "Unremembered Empire" there is a fight between two Primarchs and two Perpetuals. It is a massacre. Primarchs do not stand a chance. Perpetuals are skilled beyond believe. I don´t share your opinion of what is a superhuman: someone who, in cold blood and without the slightest trace of fear or concern, faces and brutally defeats two Primarchs in close combat should be considered superhuman. And he even does it many times, and doing witty remarks while doing it.

 da001 wrote:
I doubt someone here is "upset" by the changes on Pius´ story.

You doubt someone here is upset with the changes to Pius story? You and I must exist in two different dimensions then.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/521540.page

 da001 wrote:
In my case, I am at most "slightly irked" about the Perpetuals thing, with Pius being related to it.

Also, after reading your previous post about Pius, you strike me as someone who is more than just a tad bit “irked” by it.

 da001 wrote:
The new version IS a turd, and worth nothing.

 da001 wrote:
Also, the new version makes it a part of the Perpetuals´ class-A turd.

Turds are part of life. I do not get particularly upset by turds. If the turd is big and hard to get out of the system, it may cause an irk. But I don´t think I am "upset" by a turd. It is like all these threads about "why the hate". Hate is a really strong word. "Slight annoyance" would describe it better.

There are many things in life that upset me, but none of them are related to this hobby. I guess that is the case with most players, regardless of how vocal are we in our opinions.

I am not sure about LoneLictor though Thanks for the link, it was a fun read. And I think he is completely right.

 da001 wrote:
And I don´t think we are a "minority". This is a fallacy I keep seeing in some posts: that the people complaining about something on a forum are a "minority". Nowadays everyone have Internet, everyone can tell the rest of the world his/her opinion about anything. If the vast majority of the people writing in forums about 40k claim that, say, the tyranid codex is bad, or that the old version of the Pius´ story was better, then it is most probable that the vast majority of the people think the same. We are a non-biased sample.

gh… What?

Whenever a lot of people start complaining on the Internet, eventually someone says that we are just a "vocal minority", and that the majority of the people have a more positive opinion. I think this is false, at least concerning 40k. Most of us have Internet, most of us like to share our opinions. The amount of people saying that the new version of Pius is worse probably means that the new version of Pius, for the majority of the people (40k players), is worse.

 Redcruisair wrote:

 da001 wrote:

1) He was not alone.

No? How do you know? How do you know who was on the ship and what groups they were divided into? Do you have list with the names of the people boarding Horus flagship? If so I can I see it?

 da001 wrote:

2) Teleported. The Emperor got a lot of people in the middle of a siege he was losing and send them. He couldn´t afford being picky. Also, humans were not that 'zero value' in the old background. That´s partly the reason why people do not like the change. Many human readers enjoy reading about humans doing interesting things, not just superheros doing superhero stuff.

There is a limit to how many people you can cram inside a teleporter, and given how it was a ‘do or die’ situation, chances are only the most fit warriors were picked for this duty, imperial army personal are simply not good enough.

Also you need to learn the distinction between superhuman and immortal beings. Space marine falls under the former category, while Pius belongs in the latter one.

 da001 wrote:

3) He was lucky. All loyalist knew how the Vengeful Spirit was built, yet they got lost due to the changes done by chaos. Yet a single soldier may appear at any given moment at any point in the ship. And they were all looking for the Empeor.

They were all looking for Emperor while being lost in a maze filled with chaos taint, chaos marines and daemons. Lucky does not even begin to explain how a human could survive something like that, let alone traverse such an environment and still remain uncorrupted by chaos.

 da001 wrote:
7) Attacking the old story doesn´t make the new version any better.

I’m attacking you and other people’s attempt at glorifying a old tale that was nothing more than a propaganda story, designed to encourage billions of guardsmen worldwide to become martyrs. No matter how hard you try da001, you just can’t polish a turd (even if Mythbusters likes to claim otherwise.) And yes the last comment was meant to be taken as a joke.

Citations needed for everything you've said here, otherwise it is no more valid than what you're trying to refute. The real turd here is the whole Perpetual myth.

I'm amazed that no one is suggesting that the story about the imperial army soldier or the custode might all be false. The Emperor was not a sentimental guy, he ordered the deaths of billions and ordered the deaths of his sons before, would he be so weak as not be able to fight horus and have to see him kill someone to wake up to what was going on, I mean he felt the psychic affect of Istvaan wasn't that enough for him. I just think its 41st millennium propaganda.

Ironclad Warlord wrote:
I'm amazed that no one is suggesting that the story about the imperial army soldier or the custode might all be false. (...) I just think its 41st millennium propaganda.

A lot of people shares your opinion:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
That's okay, I still think it was a Imperial Fist Terminator that got in the way and Pious was a fictional addition to bolster the sign up rate within the Imperial Guard (...)".

 da001 wrote:
(...)
Most probably it is just an in-universe legend.

Iracundus wrote:
On a slightly related note, I argue the same reasoning behind the original Ollanius Pius sacrifice (whether or not Ollanius was originally conceived to be a real person or just a moral tale invented later) lies ....

ntw3001 wrote:

I prefer the folk-legend interpretation too.

 Daba wrote:
It would be most appropriate if he was a guy that never existed. Somehow, what Sanguinious and maybe some of the Emper's bodyguards did got attributed to him.

ntw3001 wrote:
There was all the folk legend quality that's been mentioned,

Da Butcha wrote:
I mean, I love that story. It is the sort of perfect fable that makes 40k seem real. I could definitely see ex-guardsmen telling that story to their kids. I could see the mothers of guardsmen embroidering it and hanging it on the wall. It seems like a real folk belief, just from a made-up universe.

But really? His last name was 'pious'? It's way too convenient to not be propaganda for the Imperial Cult. I always read it as a fable about the battle between Horus and the Emperor, and, though I assumed that lots of people in the Imperium thought that it was true, I never thought that we were supposed to believe it was true in the 'game universe'. It didn't even occur to be to think that it was an actual story of what actually happened.

For many players it was propaganda. Just a tale to inspire guardsmen. A good, inspiring tale, of a mere human making a difference in a battle among the gods.

Personally, in a hypothetical world where BL for the most part is "canon", I think what actually canonically happened now was Pious the Perpetual was destroyed (including his soul) by Horus, and the Imperium mistook him for a normal human and thus his propaganda legend spread. In this case though, the Imperials in charge, through no fault of their own, believed the propaganda to be true and always have, and thus the legend persisted for 10,000 years.

Granted, the actual final battle hasn't been shown yet, but, in this scenario where BL is canon, we know that the guy who probably became known as Ollanious Pious is a perpetual, and we know that his legend of him being an ordinary human still persists among the Imperial Guard today (his mask in the 6th Ed AM codex), so there doesn't seem to be many other plausible explanations besides "He actually was a perpetual, but the Imperium never found out."

I still think the whole perpetual thing in general is stupid, but I'm fine with the idea that certain events of the HH actually canonicaly being an actual occurrence twisted into a myth rather than GW just using it as a convenient excuse to cover up inconsistent and sloppy writing (which is what they usually use it as). Assuming that's where they're going with this whole thing (which, again, I"m pretty sure is the case here)

The only reason a "sacrifice" is required is to make The E realise his favoured son is really bad with no hope of redemption. But that only has to happen because the story is written to be a close and terrible conflict.

In reality The E could have just walked in. Done his mind bullet and walked out. But that wouldn't be very INTERESTING.

As to why he suddenly realises Horus is truly lost it could be that he actually senses the destruction of a perpetuals soul. Which could make him realise he has become a grave threat to The E's (supposed/presumed) ability to rapidly regenerate or resurrect.

OP is mortal now, the Cabal brought him back to life one last time but his immortality was given to restore Vulkan's mind. Old fluff and new fluff will be melded together properly in due course I think.

Because he's more interesting as just a random person doing what is right. An example from the DCAU comes to mind:



That was a powerful story. That was Olanius Pius' Story'... until it was changed.

Why is perpetual becoming a thing?

 Melissia wrote:
Because he's more interesting as just a random person doing what is right. An example from the DCAU comes to mind:

Spoiler:

In Superman: The Animated Series, when Dan Turpin goes against Darkseid, he knows he doesn't stand a chance. Superman was captured and publicly humiliated, humanity was cowed in to hopelessness. But Dan Turpin was not. He rallies the crowd behind him, frees Superman, flips off Darkseid, and actually manages to do some amazing things before Darkseid decides to execute him for his audacity.

Superman himself said at Turpin's funeral: "In the end, the world didn't need a Superman. Just a brave one".

That was a powerful story. That was Olanius Pius' Story'... until it was changed.

Cool reference. Never heard that one before.

Thanks.

The DC Animated Universe is just plain fething amazing. Better than the comics in many cases.

 Melissia wrote:
The DC Animated Universe is just plain fething amazing. Better than the comics in many cases.

Marvel could have had one with Avengers: EMH tying in all of Yost's work together.

But they went with the substantially crappier Disney cartoons.

FML.