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Well, yes. Besides, what would all the pervert fanboys who don't like Slaanesh do without their "Onii-saaaaan!" Sororitas/Astartes fantasies?

Anyway. The Astartes worship the Emperor. That their piety is filial rather than divine is not an issue. They are pious none the less.

'I hope Astartes-senpai will notice me'?

"Ugh. There's no way my little sister could be this cute." blammo.

Little Sister?

And the Marine is the Big Daddy?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
'I hope Astartes-senpai will notice me'?

Senpai ?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
"Onii-saaaaan!"

Onii-saaaan ?

 BrotherHaraldus wrote:
Little Sister?

And the Marine is the Big Daddy?

I think she was referring to some anime about a guy and his little sister who is into eroge and something. I do remember reading an article on WIkipedia about it, but I do not remember the title. I am not very much into anime. I prefer Japanese live-action movies, really, with Sushi Typhoon, and Female Convict Scorpion, and all that.

You know. Onii-san. "Big Brother". Because the Marines are the Emperor's sons, and the Sisters are the Emperor's daughters..? Which makes them..?

Lovers?

 Furyou Miko wrote:
You know. Onii-san.

That is precisely the problem : I do not know what Onii-san means. I know only one foreign language, and that is already quite nice, but I choose English over Japanese. Hence I do not know what Senpai means either.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Because the Marines are the Emperor's sons, and the Sisters are the Emperor's daughters..? Which makes them..?

Mortal enemies that will fight to the death over doctrinal disagreements ? Brothers and Sisters ? People that like to show off in power armor ?

Clearly, the joke has fallen flat. When that happens, it is best to move on.

They're siblings, yes. They fight like siblings. Squabble over disagreements on minor details, but when Nid from down the street starts picking on one, the other immediately snaps to backing them up and they put Nid down like a rotten apple.

So, what does Onii-san and sempaï means ? Or maybe I need to google-translate that .

Could the IoM survive without the SM's? Depends on how you look at it.

From a storyline perspective, the 40k universe sort of falls apart without them.

That said, from any sort of realistic perspective, the SM's are so rare and so small in number that they'd be a non-factor and the IoM wouldn't notice their disappearance from a practical perspective. They're like having 1 modern Navy Seal on something like WW2 Eastern Front multiplied by a thousand. When there's hundreds of millions of guardsmen per Space Marine, not to mention PDF/IN/Inq forces, even if it costs other forces 10x, 100x, or 1000x the resources to do what the SM's do, the SM's are just such a small factor that they'd still be a tiny fraction of a a percent of the Imperium's military might.

Essentially, 40k is a Fantasy universe set in Space. Relatively little about it works or even makes sense once you start really looking at it, and the Space Marines are chief amongst them. Not only are Space Marines just too few in number to accomplish anything on a galactic scale, they lack the logistical capabilities and loss-replacement to continue their existence with the casualties they are described as taking.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:
So, what does Onii-san and sempaï means ? Or maybe I need to google-translate that .

Onii-san is Japanese for brother, but can be applied to other young men, usually of a higher standing.
Senpai is Japanese for senior I think, basically someone who's been doing something longer than you. A first year student would address and second year student as senpai for example.

At least that's the impression I got from watching some anime.

Ok, thanks !

Fine...

Onii-san is "Big Brother". It's considered quite a childish way of addressing a senior male. When used by young adults and adults, it only ever refers to someone else's elder sibling, with 'ani-sama' being the correct formal form, and 'aniki' being the casual form (which is also co-opted by gangsters to refer to their junior bosses). Onii-san has gained (due to anime culture) the implication of the speaker being a brocon - someone with a crush on, or romantic interest in their brother.

Sempai (more properly senpai) is 'upperlassman', basically. Someone of the same social or political rank as you, but who you treat as being your superior because you respect them, or because they are slightly older than you. Again, because of a lot of anime featuring girls with crushes on their upperclassmen, 'Senpai' has become a cult term for someone a teenage girl has a crush on.

TiamatRoar wrote:

 Farseer Faenyin wrote:
The Imperium would be just fine, if not better, without the terribly uneffecient arm that is the Adeptus Astartes. If humans have proven anythign in their nature, it is that they can adapt quickly and find a new source of inspiritaiton when one is lost.

Has the fluff ever explicitly stated the production of Astartes was terribly inefficient? Or is that just speculation/extrapolation based on guess work for something where the exact numbers of the costs and benefits has never been given to us, the fans? Speculation which IMHO is futile given that technology, costs, and benefits in the 40th millennium are probably significantly different from the 20th century.

I'd think that if the astartes really were arguably a waste for the benefit they give, it'd have been brought up in a novel or codex or white dwarf article or fluff source SOMEWHERE. As far as I'm aware, there has never even been an in-universe case of Imperial citzens or even biased Chaos followers or Xenos debating, arguing, or thinking that marines were overcosted (as opposed to say, Titans, where the Tau felt Titans are an impractical waste of resources in-universe)

The fluff states this all over the place. If you are looking for a direct quote you are looking incorrectly at 'canon' which you like to toss around without knowing how it is generated. You determine this 'canon' by looking at facts:

1. Does the Imperium spend a LOT of resources and effort into providing for the Adeptus Astartes? Yes, obviously.
2. More than it would spend on a unit of Marines, Sisters of Battle or other combat oriented force? Yes, obviously.
3. Could those resources be used to help the other organizations if it wasn't needed to support the Marines? Yes, obviously.

These aren't exactly leaps in logic...specialization is a good price point for what it is designed to handle with that specialization and that specialization only. So this specific organization that handles certain problems with its own hierarchy of leadership, logistics, support and combat personel...certainly would be more effecient if added to another established organization that can dedicate a branch to that same project instead of a huge company. This is why buyouts happen, and higher leadership is often booted to make it instantly profitable.

Wasn't it shown/stated in another thread that it costs almost as much to train a sister as it does a marine?

Also, you listed the cost but you didn't list the benefits. The question is if the marines are worth the cost for the benefits they provide. Pointing out that they're expensive means nothing if you can't point out that their benefits are not worth that cost. And I've never seen anything in the fluff that says marines are either ineffectual or aren't achieving anything. You can attempt to use logic to deduce that they aren't based on numbers alone, but what's ACTUALLY going on in the fluff is either disagreeing with your logic that or it's the propaganda effect (I'll concede the latter is a huge possibility, but that's some awfully expensive propaganda if that's the case AND propaganda counts as a benefit in and of itself, anyways)

Again, if space marines weren't providing a good benefit for their cost, it logically would have shown up somewhere. Instead, they have always been portrayed as achieving stuff, even if to mary sue nonsense levels sometimes. But hey, an expensive mary sue that'ssomehow canonically achieving stuff ("canon" in this case being what the fluff says. Such as "this space marine chapter saved this planet." being stated in a codex) despite how they logically shouldn't is still someone that's canonically achieving stuff (unless it's propaganda, of course)

Yes, it logically makes no sense that 100 marines saved or conquered an entire planet. That doesn't change the fact that, in the fluff, they DID (barring propagandic lies). Thus, no matter what your logic says, fluff-wise the marines have a high chance of providing benefit to justify their cost, even if it's simply because the fluff might not always be logical.

They may not match the there propaganda image, however they are effective elite forces for the most high risk missions. They can survive environments that can kill a guardsman in hours.

Fluff wise they are a powerful elite unit, often hundreds of years of experience, unparalleled spec ops troops and assault units.

Small scale, but ideal for the most dangerous and important battlefield missions where no others will do.

Space Marines base their existence, in fact the only way they could possibly exist is illogical.

Makes sense that they can conquer planets and whatnot from there...

Is that based on the mathematical ideal of "error carried forward", Shi-shi?

In regards to marines not being shown to be inefficient, there is ALOT of propaganda going on, just not by IOM.

GW likes your money.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
[…]Onii-san has gained (due to anime culture) the implication of the speaker being a brocon - someone with a crush on, or romantic interest in their brother.

[…]Again, because of a lot of anime featuring girls with crushes on their upperclassmen, 'Senpai' has become a cult term for someone a teenage girl has a crush on.

I see. I was not aware of all that, because I do not have time to watch Japanese cartoons. I am too busy with their live-action movies ! And since those are usually, unlike anime, completely dubbed or subbed in English or French…

 Ashiraya wrote:
Space Marines base their existence, in fact the only way they could possibly exist is illogical.

Makes sense that they can conquer planets and whatnot from there...

So, you are Haraldus, right ? I mean, you changed your avatar, and then you changed your username… it is getting a bit confusing.

 purplefood wrote:

jhe90 wrote:
Minus there elite combat arm, they would not last as long. Baselines humans cannot fight with same sheer aggression and durability

But they do have the bloody mindedness and massive numbers to make up for it.

The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

Imperial Guard go traitor all the time. Hell, the Tau have IG working for them happily, and they don't have magic psy powers of corrupting the mind.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Is that based on the mathematical ideal of "error carried forward", Shi-shi?

More like 'It's so crazy so who cares if it gets a little crazier?'

The very premise of Marines, the premise of the Imperium, is so illogical in itself so at this point it's like having an army of giant toys invade while everyone complains that the toys are not equally represented.

It's one thing trying to maintain suspension of disbelief and all that, I can sympathise with that. But this is not quite the same.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

So, you are Haraldus, right ? I mean, you changed your avatar, and then you changed your username… it is getting a bit confusing.

Yes. Suffice it to say I have my reasons for changing the name.

Like Vakathi said, in a "realistic" setting, Space Marines don't have a very large impact on the Galaxy, and without them the Imperium would go on.

No point in discussing it from a realistic viewpoint though, because from a realistic viewpoint the Imperial Guard wouldn't work either, with the way they're organized. Too few of them on any one battlefield at any one time.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
Like Vakathi said, in a "realistic" setting, Space Marines don't have a very large impact on the Galaxy, and without them the Imperium would go on.

No point in discussing it from a realistic viewpoint though, because from a realistic viewpoint the Imperial Guard wouldn't work either, with the way they're organized. Too few of them on any one battlefield at any one time.

I am not sure if any of the races would work from a realistic viewpoint.

They all use heavy handwavium in order to get their stuff working.

It's true. The "SciFi writers suck at scale" trope is present in just about every aspect of 40K.

It's just funny, because people generally only point out the numbers deficiency when discussing Marines. A thousand marines can't hold a planet, yet a single regiment can and routinely does in the fluff, and that's alright apparently.

 EmpNortonII wrote:


The foremost virtue of a Space Marine isn't his aggression or durability. It's his resistance to Chaos.

Imperial Guard go traitor all the time. Hell, the Tau have IG working for them happily, and they don't have magic psy powers of corrupting the mind.

You seem to be confusing Space Marines with Battle Sisters. I know, it's an easy mistake to make, but the difference is that one can take a bullet, the other can resist chaos...

I can't think of any Sisters off-hand who've tanked bullets, so I'm not sure that's correct.

Now I'm trying to work out if you're serious or trolling.

Snark begets snark.