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 some bloke wrote:

 koooaei wrote:
Make assault grenades deny overwatch if you throw them. So if you throw a nade instead of shooting and it hits the charged unit, they can't overwatch. Assault grenades are actually invented for this. Shrapnel pins the enemy so that they can't fire at you when you advance. And hey, now even orkses have a real reason to buy nades!

I think this seems like a really good way to deal with it! It's simple, effective, makes sense with the way the things work and makes close-combat based units more effective at charging than non close-combat based units.

That said, there are a few little impositions that I'd stipulate (that's the long word quota filled for the day)

I'd only make the grenades do this if you're charging less than 8" - It's the distance you can throw a grenade, so if you attempt to break cover on a longer charge then it's reasonable to assume you'll get shot up before you even get a chance to therow the grenade.

I'd also make assault grenades do what they used to, when they made sense - reduce the charged unit to I1 as well, rather than increasing your ability to negotiate difficult terrain... - no, stop being stupid, it's a grenade not a stepladder, it doesn't make climbing over an aegis any easier. that way both sides attack simultaneously, so a defensive unit in cover will sill have a small chance even if they can't fire overwatch. sounds like fairness to me!

Only problem I have with this is it still doesn't answer a lot of problems. Chaos daemons don't have assault grenades on their assault units, Tyranids don't, I don't know about orks, and even some assault units still don't such as Warp Talons and I believe even Terminators.

if you want assualt grenades to work against Overwatch I'd say make them Pinning and make the Pinning rules work in a way that Pinning might actually occur and prevent the Overwatch.

I think the biggest issue with overwatch is the casualties from the front messing up charge distances. If anything have the casualties be removed after move to base contact or at the very least roll that rule into furious charge (so angry that wounds don't stop them until they reach their target).

Something like giving assault grenades the option to throw smoke to (or in the orky case throw bombs at the dirt) to generate smoke to give a shrouded effect to the chargers for the overwatch phase that turn instead of giving the initiative when charging through cover.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Overwatch isn't broken, except that it's not effective enough. Tau are the only ones getting it even halfway right, and even that's through some silly laser designator shenanigans.

Um... NO. I've been on the giving and receiving end, and it's disgusting.

I have two ways I'd change it, either one would be fine:

1. Go back to 2nd edition Overwatch, where you have to give up shooting in your prior turn to get shooting during your opponent's turn. No dropping to Snap Fire, just delayed firing. This would still be a major boon as you get to fire at a closer range typically. No more free round of shooting.

2. Keep Overwatch as it is, but any unit using Overwatch drops to Initiative 1 in the ensuing phase as they have to switch from firing at incoming enemy to trying to react to the survivors leaping on them. So they get their free shooting, but at a price. Don't want the drop in Initiative? Well, put the guns away and draw your weapons for combat. It becomes a serious question of "Is it worth it?" Sometimes it will be, other times it won't. I.e. a heavy weapon squad would likely still take the shots, but they'd be the worst offenders for imagining they could switch from firing position to a fighting stance quickly.

 ErikSetzer wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Overwatch isn't broken, except that it's not effective enough. Tau are the only ones getting it even halfway right, and even that's through some silly laser designator shenanigans.

Um... NO. I've been on the giving and receiving end, and it's disgusting.

I have two ways I'd change it, either one would be fine:

1. Go back to 2nd edition Overwatch, where you have to give up shooting in your prior turn to get shooting during your opponent's turn. No dropping to Snap Fire, just delayed firing. This would still be a major boon as you get to fire at a closer range typically. No more free round of shooting.

I thought of the same thing but then we have Tau gunline armies basically forcing people to not move up the board. A different problem for sure, but still a problem.

 ErikSetzer wrote:
2. Keep Overwatch as it is, but any unit using Overwatch drops to Initiative 1 in the ensuing phase as they have to switch from firing at incoming enemy to trying to react to the survivors leaping on them. So they get their free shooting, but at a price. Don't want the drop in Initiative? Well, put the guns away and draw your weapons for combat. It becomes a serious question of "Is it worth it?" Sometimes it will be, other times it won't. I.e. a heavy weapon squad would likely still take the shots, but they'd be the worst offenders for imagining they could switch from firing position to a fighting stance quickly.

Basically my original idea: give an Initiative penalty. I was berated for that one.

I, as a Necron player, heavily disagree. It would make Necrons attack at the same I as enemies with a power fist / unwieldy weapons which just seems to be really unfair to an army that already sucks at melee.

You are fully correct, however, in saying that in some cases, Overwatch gets over the top e.g. by massive psychic buffs! I think, however, that the reason for this problem isn't Overwatch itself, but of the buffs affecting Overwatch.

 Sigvatr wrote:
I, as a Necron player, heavily disagree. It would make Necrons attack at the same I as enemies with a power fist / unwieldy weapons which just seems to be really unfair to an army that already sucks at melee.

You are fully correct, however, in saying that in some cases, Overwatch gets over the top e.g. by massive psychic buffs! I think, however, that the reason for this problem isn't Overwatch itself, but of the buffs affecting Overwatch.

Markerlights and Divination then?

Seeing as 2 of the best shooting armies (Tau and Necrons) are initiative 2 as a base anyway, its pretty much a no brainer for them to Overwatch every time if Overwatch is an Initiative penalty.

Jefffar wrote:
Seeing as 2 of the best shooting armies (Tau and Necrons) are initiative 2 as a base anyway, its pretty much a no brainer for them to Overwatch every time if Overwatch is an Initiative penalty.

I2 or I1 is a huge difference as the strongest melee weapons hit at I1 (energy fists and alike).

So, don't shoot overwatch with the ones you want to strike at ini?

 Sigvatr wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Seeing as 2 of the best shooting armies (Tau and Necrons) are initiative 2 as a base anyway, its pretty much a no brainer for them to Overwatch every time if Overwatch is an Initiative penalty.

I2 or I1 is a huge difference as the strongest melee weapons hit at I1 (energy fists and alike).

Not really, you still get all your attacks and at least when it comes to Tau and Necrons, most models don't have special combat weapons anyway and thus stand little chance of eliminating nasty melee specialists on the first round of attacks.

In truth, with my tau, I'd prefer to catastrophically lose on the round you charged me so that my unit breaks and runs (possibly being swept, but odds are there isn't enough worth saving anyway). That way I can immediately shoot you with the rest of my army next turn.

Eh, Tau and Necrons can complain about dropping to I1 from their I2... but that just means they're now striking behind Orks. The horror! Space Marines would, too. So that means that for the ability to get a free round of shooting (albeit not as effective as normal), you have to strike after an army that's supposed to be dedicated assault troops.

Yes, I'll admit, my preference for Orks could give a *slight* bias (though my main bias is toward a competitive, fair game). But it already feels cruel that an army like the Orks has to try to run across the table, can no longer run and then charge (and yet if you have Shoota Boyz they can figure out how to shoot and then charge?!?), and then your enemy gets to shoot you AGAIN after shooting you the whole way there, and then typically they'll strike before you or at the same Initiative, because somehow even the slowest combat troops are so fast they can fire their weapons, drop them, pull out their combat weapons, and react before the Orks can. I've used that to my advantage with Space Marines against Orks and it made me feel bad for my opponent, just boltering the snot out of him as he came toward me, firing more bolters as he charged in, and then still getting all my attacks before he does. The net result was that I could whittle his units down to a point where they didn't have the mass to hurt me, then beat them down some more, the remaining guys couldn't do enough harm, and I would just overrun them.

Assault Squads are similarly disappearing everywhere. They get shot up trying to get to the enemy, then shot some more as they charge in. And +1A is supposed to help counterbalance all that?

There should be some penalty to using Overwatch. Being able to only fire Snap Shots isn't a penalty, because it's still a free round of shooting.

Jefffar wrote:

 Sigvatr wrote:

Jefffar wrote:
Seeing as 2 of the best shooting armies (Tau and Necrons) are initiative 2 as a base anyway, its pretty much a no brainer for them to Overwatch every time if Overwatch is an Initiative penalty.

I2 or I1 is a huge difference as the strongest melee weapons hit at I1 (energy fists and alike).

Not really, you still get all your attacks and at least when it comes to Tau and Necrons, most models don't have special combat weapons anyway and thus stand little chance of eliminating nasty melee specialists on the first round of attacks.

Sigh.

In 40k, every model has stat values.

Every model bar vehicles, weapons and such has an I value.

The I value defines who strikes first.

Having a higher I value than your opponent means you strike first.

Having an equal I value means both strike at the same time.

Hope I didn't lose you yet.

Striking first means effectively reducing the enemy's number of attacks.

Reducing an enemy's number of attacks means suffering less wounds yourself.

Suffering less wounds yourself means having a better combat result.

Having a better combat result means winning combat.

Hope that was clear enough for ya.

And Tau are typically WS 2, are genrally found in small units and have virtually no special melee weapons. Under ideal circumstances they are unlikely to win. So instead they should play to lose the close combat in the most spectacular means possible so they garuntee they will break or get wiped out. Thus they will be free to shoot the attacking unit next turn.

Necrons, its somewhat more variable, but I could definitely see more than a few circumstances where the garunteed loss might be the wiser option to play for than taking the chance on an unlikely win.

We know GW likes to keep things simple for quick game play and a younger demographic.

But here is my simple method for fixing this. There is no such thing as overwatch as we know it. The enemy assaults (2d6). If they make it, the assault happens like normal. They attack at there normal Int. If they go through difficult terrain they go at Int 1. Assault grenades let them strike at normal Int. So far just like normal. Now the change, on the first round of combat the unit receiving the charge can opt to use their CC weapons with a WS roll (useful for power weapons, ect), or fire their weapons as their first round of combat using their normal BS to hit. This would use the weapons Str and Ap for the first round, at their normal Int. So a fast armies like the nids can strike first, before getting shot.

This would change very little in the way the game works other than letting the unit being assaulted have a few more attacks in the first round. After the first round of combat, things go back to the normal rules.

Think of it as when the enemy comes running at you, you get a few shots off (the first round), after that you are swinging your rifle.

Not sure how Tau's rule would work with this. Maybe let the supporting units add their shots into the combat, but at their Int. So nids would tear apart the unit they assaulted before getting shot to pieces by the supporting fire. But that is better than losing the unit before they get into combat at all.

One other change, the special rule of Move Through Cover would need a small note added that if you charge through cover, you roll the 3d6 and take the highest, but don't suffer the Int penalty for a successful charge. Again this helps nids and other special units.