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 TheKbob wrote:
Hardcover books are a rip-off. You can find plenty of articles on how that entire book industry uses that model to fleece people out of cash for a more expensive product with smaller cost associated with manufacturing and shipping. GW could have easily made softcover and hardcover, make the latter the collector's item, the former a gamer's item. A spiral bound softback with plastic covers holds up amazingly well. My previous sisters book was scans of the two White Dwarfs printed on the best paper Kinko's had, full color, spiral bound, and the two white dwarfs + printing was cheaper than the hardcover. And I'm not getting any sort of mass production discount.

The codecis and supplements are being reduced in value. They are containing a higher volume of pictures, which are of little to no value; see the fine repository of fine photos on this site for a wider variety of inspiration and much more talented painters. The fluff is free on 3 different wikis, it's value is marginal. Plus, fluff from Black Library is WAY cheaper.

Codecis and supplements are thus game books. That content is being diminished greatly with the latest two major books seeing more units deleted than added. On top of that, the quality of the content is dropping and not being actively supported.

So from a pure rational and logical view, the value of the recent codecis and supplements is much lower than previous editions. This without even going into the wide spread that is the pricing of digital content.

I'll have to agree to disagree on how much we're getting ripped off exactly because I feel the new codexes are of a pretty good quality overall at least in layout and materials used (so leaving rules aside).

Price per content is debatable because codexes have been a combined package of fluff, model images and rules for a long, long time now (at least since 2nd) so really your value of the codex varies on how much value do you place on the whole set.

 ClockworkZion wrote:
'll have to agree to disagree on how much we're getting ripped off exactly because I feel the new codexes are of a pretty good quality overall at least in layout and materials used (so leaving rules aside).

Price per content is debatable because codexes have been a combined package of fluff, model images and rules for a long, long time now (at least since 2nd) so really your value of the codex varies on how much value do you place on the whole set.

There is some weight to what you value, but can we agree that the community at large has devalued things like studio photos and basic background fluff? I can read three different wikis on stuff associated with every major faction on 40k and I can browse many photo and hobby sites for models that go above and beyond that found in a codex. The codecis no longer even offer modeling tips, painting tips, or even conversions. I believe my Witchhunters Codex has Victoria Lamb's classic model of a Seraphim with dual hand flamers fighing and ork killa kan. This is an iconic model, but no where to be found in modern books.

The content has become clinical. Dry fluff which we can access anywhere, dry photos which are just stock "here is the model" and then rules.

If anything, this would be a moot point if we were given options. A cheap $10~$15 download, minimal artwork, just an ebook with rules. A softcover "players" codex for the $25-$35 range so we can spiral bind them and keep them light, and then the $50 - $100 more coffee table or "intimate" codex. I do love the new cover art and some of the actual art work involving new units. I just feel like it's not enough content to sustain the higher price point or at least give me the option to decide which book is worth that cost.

New IG comes out? Eh, I just want the rules for allies, it's not a big thing for me. New SoB physical book? I'd probably give strong consideration to the hardback AND softback. One for display, one for play.

There isn't a "right" solution, but what we have now doesn't cater to the market well. I know many players who have gone from buying every codex day one to just saying screw it and waiting for the "shareware" version.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?

No, I don't play tournaments anymore because honestly I feel that I get to focused on needing to win that my enjoyment of the game is severely diminished. Deathstars have been a thing since 2nd edition, acting like they're new is frankly silly. And yes they could be fixed but I don't think it's as "easy" as you claim since some of the worst ones come from a single codex and not allies.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Oh and you think thats worth double the price?

Double? Not so much, but more than we were paying for the old softbacks? Yes.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.

I've run into to many people who insist that they need to take their "best list" to every game, and it's usually done so they can steamroll someone else and feel better about themselves. I'm not saying there is anything wrong about bringing your best, but there is about doing so against people who aren't.

And I'm sure if I go digging into some ther popular games there are some combos that are pretty "point and click" too.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ya, and its the D weapons that ruin it. Really GW? Really?

I'm not GW. I'm an unemployed college student who lives in the middle of nowhere Montana. I don't even think there is a GW in this state to be honest (or at least I don't know of one). Yes, the D-Weapons are really the only part of those books I feel is unbalanced. I didn't like the way it was implimented in Apoc, and I didn't like it in Escalation. Apart from that I feel that most of the stuff is actually reasonably balanced and could be a lot of fun.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.

$50 Not so much. But just because you're not using certain parts of the book don't make them a less valid part of the book. That's like claiming drop pods aren't a valid part of the Space Marine codex because you don't use them in your bike army.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....

Your original statement was about "issues with GW" not "issues with 40k". Those are two different things entirely. And honestly with how casually I play (namely just for fun and with Sisters mostly) a lot of the issues you've listed don't impact me personally so much. They're issues that really impact things like Nova, but frankly the game can be a lot of fun without trying to make every game into a "let's see whose list skull drags the other the best" competition that some people seem to insist the game MUST be able to do.

And that's not to say I don't want better balance. I'd love to see assault armies get more play, and less turtling for instance, as well as Repentia not be totally pants anymore, but I'm not so upset with the game that the things you've listed cause me to be unable to enjoy the game.

Now my main issues honestly have a lot more to do with how the GW board of directors is trying to keep the Iron Curtain up and has removed a lot of things that reached out to the community. I really feel the bean counters should have less control over what products come out and while I understand a price DROP is pretty much impossible I'd like to see them not raise prices for a few years if possible (to include the stealth price increases). Oh and GW should totally get FFG to make BFG using the X-Wing ruleset. I think it'd work GREAT.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:
There is some weight to what you value, but can we agree that the community at large has devalued things like studio photos and basic background fluff?

Yes. Because the only thing the community "at large" seems to value is rules. Which I feel is missing out on some of the other stuff the materials are supposed to be for.

 TheKbob wrote:
I can read three different wikis on stuff associated with every major faction on 40k and I can browse many photo and hobby sites for models that go above and beyond that found in a codex. The codecis no longer even offer modeling tips, painting tips, or even conversions.

That is something I miss from them too, but they were mostly out the door by the time 5th hit so I'm not blaming 6th for this one.

 TheKbob wrote:
I believe my Witchhunters Codex has Victoria Lamb's classic model of a Seraphim with dual hand flamers fighing and ork killa kan. This is an iconic model, but no where to be found in modern books.

To be fair Sisters haven't had a proper book for two editions now to put that model in. That said we do need more stuff like that.

 TheKbob wrote:
The content has become clinical. Dry fluff which we can access anywhere, dry photos which are just stock "here is the model" and then rules.

I partially blame the accelerated release schedule for that. It means less time to really sit down and try and flesh as much as you can out like you could with the older stuff. Makes me think of the saying "You have three options: it can look good, it can work right, it can be fast. You get two."

 TheKbob wrote:
If anything, this would be a moot point if we were given options. A cheap $10~$15 download, minimal artwork, just an ebook with rules. A softcover "players" codex for the $25-$35 range so we can spiral bind them and keep them light, and then the $50 - $100 more coffee table or "intimate" codex. I do love the new cover art and some of the actual art work involving new units. I just feel like it's not enough content to sustain the higher price point or at least give me the option to decide which book is worth that cost.

I'd say really we only need three: small digital "The Rules" version, regular digital version, hardback.

 ClockworkZion wrote:

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Do you not like to go to tournaments? Because with these broken combos tourneys are really just... differnet. Also do you not see the problem in broken deathstars? I mean honestly, GW could do a few simple things that eliminate all these deathstars, but they dont. Which also brings up another point, do you not see a problem in GWs refusal to listen to there fanbase?

No, I don't play tournaments anymore because honestly I feel that I get to focused on needing to win that my enjoyment of the game is severely diminished. Deathstars have been a thing since 2nd edition, acting like they're new is frankly silly. And yes they could be fixed but I don't think it's as "easy" as you claim since some of the worst ones come from a single codex and not allies.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Oh and you think thats worth double the price?

Double? Not so much, but more than we were paying for the old softbacks? Yes.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
To some people, its fun to make the best lists you can. In most games, that "best list" isnt totally over powered and can be beat, but in 40k, if you want to win, you can. Point and click. Is it against the game to try and win? No, only 40k.

I've run into to many people who insist that they need to take their "best list" to every game, and it's usually done so they can steamroll someone else and feel better about themselves. I'm not saying there is anything wrong about bringing your best, but there is about doing so against people who aren't.

And I'm sure if I go digging into some ther popular games there are some combos that are pretty "point and click" too.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Ya, and its the D weapons that ruin it. Really GW? Really?

I'm not GW. I'm an unemployed college student who lives in the middle of nowhere Montana. I don't even think there is a GW in this state to be honest (or at least I don't know of one). Yes, the D-Weapons are really the only part of those books I feel is unbalanced. I didn't like the way it was implimented in Apoc, and I didn't like it in Escalation. Apart from that I feel that most of the stuff is actually reasonably balanced and could be a lot of fun.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Again, do you find thats worth 50 dollars? as much as a codex thats FULL of rules, and has the fluff? The percentage of people who buy the books for the altar of war missions, Eternal war missions, Apoc stuff, Cities of Death, and Planetstrike to the amount of people who buy it for the rules and fluff is just rediculous.

$50 Not so much. But just because you're not using certain parts of the book don't make them a less valid part of the book. That's like claiming drop pods aren't a valid part of the Space Marine codex because you don't use them in your bike army.

 ninjafiredragon wrote:
Really? With everything you just said it seems that you find no flaws in 40k, as i just pointed out the biggest ones and you denied every bit of it. And if you honestly believe 40k to be great with no flaws or problems.... just wow.....

Your original statement was about "issues with GW" not "issues with 40k". Those are two different things entirely. And honestly with how casually I play (namely just for fun and with Sisters mostly) a lot of the issues you've listed don't impact me personally so much. They're issues that really impact things like Nova, but frankly the game can be a lot of fun without trying to make every game into a "let's see whose list skull drags the other the best" competition that some people seem to insist the game MUST be able to do.

And that's not to say I don't want better balance. I'd love to see assault armies get more play, and less turtling for instance, as well as Repentia not be totally pants anymore, but I'm not so upset with the game that the things you've listed cause me to be unable to enjoy the game.

Now my main issues honestly have a lot more to do with how the GW board of directors is trying to keep the Iron Curtain up and has removed a lot of things that reached out to the community. I really feel the bean counters should have less control over what products come out and while I understand a price DROP is pretty much impossible I'd like to see them not raise prices for a few years if possible (to include the stealth price increases). Oh and GW should totally get FFG to make BFG using the X-Wing ruleset. I think it'd work GREAT.

You know, we could go into hours of debating over this, and if you want to here my reply to all this then say so, but obviously we both have very different opinions, and see different ways. I see no need to keep going back and forth.

I was looking forward to expanding my chaos army, and starting a space marine chapter after boot camp...but with everything happening...i must say goodbye to GW. I love all the fluff and the stories...but i am not investing any more money into a very clearly flawed business. If they get their shi* together maybe i will return. I hope so..

And before I get anymore accusations about being 100% content: I sent in a 20 page pamplet on things I felt needed to be addressed regarding the Sisters. That's right, I sent a frikkin' novella in on stuff. And I've gotten a response and while it's not being used for anything -right now- I know that it's at least been looked at, may be looked at again and may actually be put to use. Because that's how I roll.

The Tyranid release, basically. The prices for stuff I wanted hit that point where I felt dirty. It wasn't until I found a local store that sells for 20% off that I felt okay paying their prices again.

Actually I started to dislike Games Workshop when they refused to allow Blot Thrower to continuing using their artwork on Realm of Chaos.

As purely a collector and not a gamer, i still love GW and their product, many an avenue i use to get cheaper GW product, but i still like travelling to my local GW for socialization and pick up my White Dwarf and Visions mag, hell at the mo i am actually paying full retail for the Movement Kits for my Warhammer Fantasy armies as it is conventient at the time.

Go my vote goes to I LOVE GW.

I started hating GW when 6th came around and the FAQ for making the ork codex compatible pretty much spelled "LOL, we didn't even look at the codex! It's not space marines, so go feth yourself dirty xenos!" in capital pink letters.

Good work Arun.

Some of the items are just crazy if you're a long term player.

No option "I don't hate GW".

Yay for biased polls, I guess.

Why is this poll still here?
I understand the discussion and think its perfectly valid, but the poll is just ridiculous.
(I still refuse to vote.)

Well, I think its more like a syndrome why people ''hate'' GW, not just a single item. But the items are all valid.

I still do like GW. I still buy somethings here and there but the major buzz kill was the price increase. I budget myself to X amount a month. I used to buy 3 to 4 things a month, but now its maybe 2. Also, I don't feel like I'm getting what I pay for anymore. $40 for a box of ten plastic men does not mean as much to me when I got it for $30 awhile ago.

I also kind of got knocked out of the game when they would come out with a release with some pretty darn nifty units then the next update would hit that unit with the nerf sledge. Then make a whole new unit that becomes almost a requirment that costs $78 for a box of 3...

Plus other cheaper games and lack of time have spung me of course too.

Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.

 Accolade wrote:
I haven't started "hating" GW at all.

When I do, I will vacate these forums and move onto other areas.

This

 Barksdale wrote:
Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.

because we have a small faint hope that GW will see these complaints andbrealze what a big POS company it has become, and then hopefully change for the better...then we can stop complaining and actually enjoy ourselves once again by playing the best table top wargame available...which at this point is not WH40K

I think the shark jumping(hate is a foolish word to put on this poll) began for me when they brought flyers/FMCs into the game with 6th Edition without a care on using those 'Updates' to actually help balance lists. It would have been VERY simple to hand some AA out to the Xenos lists, so very easy...but GW refused. Dumb mistake, and seemed to me to prove their lack of care of their gaming base was beyond fixing.

 Barksdale wrote:
Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.

For people who aren't happy to discuss why?

Escalation started my dislike of w40k and DLC was the end .

I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.

I like their models but dislike their methods.

 13whited wrote:

 Barksdale wrote:
Mate, what's the point of creating a poll thread which intentionally excludes the obvious option "I like GW". For all you people who claim that you don't like GW, you lot sure like to talk about it, dang.

because we have a small faint hope that GW will see these complaints andbrealze what a big POS company it has become, and then hopefully change for the better...then we can stop complaining and actually enjoy ourselves once again by playing the best table top wargame available...which at this point is not WH40K

So, its done by poll, which restrict response just to "I hate it...and I hate it". Yeah, very convicing...as the hope that GW will read another ranty thred on Dakka and opens its company eyes...because it must be living creature by attitude of some people.

I have one, really friendly, advice...maybe it would be better to move to the best wargame - and Im not saying it in spite. Just if you are unhappy with WH40K, believe me, not a thousand threads like this will change it. But Im not sending you to exile, this is not "like it or gak off" argument

Makumba wrote:
Escalation started my dislike of w40k and DLC was the end .

So the DLC that was basically the first codex supplement, Codex: Armageddon did you in? Or was it the Eye of Terror book? GW is hardly doing anything new with supplements and mini codexes, so it's a little amusing to hear people lament something that's been around as a "new" problem.

 Sir Arun wrote:
GW just isnt the same for me anymore, but I want to specifically implore on the reasons. Mine are obviously all the above

The reasons listed above are mostly in chronological order, starting from about half a decade ago till present day.

It's time for someone to get a new hobby then....

Was somewhat annoyed by the 2010 'Nids dex (loss of biomorphs, variable weapons, horrible FAQ).

Started disliking GW when they simultaineously introduced Finecast and an up to 40% price hike (incubi went from about $35 for 5 to almost $50).

Left when 6th ed. nerfed both my armies into the ground. I just didn't feel like paying that much to fix the problem.

Still hover around hoping for stuff to get better.

 viewfinder wrote:
I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.

Oh dear, so many misuses of terms there I think my head just exploded....

There's simply not enough Inigo Montoya images in the world for this post.

 Grimtuff wrote:

 viewfinder wrote:
I think most people started disliking GW when it became fashionable to do so. In person, they'll have some complaints, but online "GW IS ANTI-CHRIST!!!" GW haters are the hipsters of the gaming world, people may agree with some stuff they say, but they are generally disliked for their "ironic" nature.

Oh dear, so many misuses of terms there I think my head just exploded....

There's simply not enough Inigo Montoya images in the world for this post.

Maybe they misused them ironically?

Flyers I felt were a fairly awful addition to the game, but to be honest I am willing to put up with them.
The price hike, again I am willing to put up with. After all I am not being forced to buy anything.
The paint range never bothered me at all, but I got back into the game after they redid it.
Finecast is awful from the perspective of anyone except painters, it was a terrible decision but I didn't hate them for it. I just avoided it.

The rules are poorly written, worded inconveniently, don't make a whole lot of sense and I rarely run a cc army anymore. But there is a lot of things that are pretty decent in there. It's okay.
I have never and will never use allies. I play the army I play because I like it, and I will play it on it's own with it's own merits. I leave the allies to people who wish to use them for whatever reason.
Again, the price hike on hardcover books is something I will overlook, the abysmal layout is another thing all together though.

Let's be clear about this, Eldar and Tau are overpowered in the context of other armies but they are well written internally. If GW could consistently write good rules then it wouldn't be an issue. But they can't. So yeah.
Escalation and Super heavies are a nonevent for me because no one I play with is "that guy" or wants to just set up and shoot. It isn't fun for either side.

The rest is all pretty disgusting in terms of customer relations but I don't interact with people outside my gaming group and I don't add to my army often enough to care about these things. Though I certainly sympathize with people who do.

So in the end, the reason above all of these things that has made me dislike GW is the Tyranid Codex. I do not play Tyranids, my friend does. And in the two years we have been playing he has rarely beaten me with them, I said to him "Wait for the new Codex". Since the new codex he has never beaten me with them. Short of me actually just throwing the game, he cannot win. If I put any effort into beating him then I do. The rules are awful, it's easily the worst Codex I've ever read. The old saying that "GW is a miniatures company first" doesn't work for me because such a large percentage of their customers are gamers, and as I gamer I find the Tyranid Codex offensive to look at. It's not acceptable. I set the bar pretty low and they dropped below it, I had a great deal of patience but now it is spent. Until their rules get better I will keep what I have and not add to it. And I refuse to play against or with Tyranids until they stop making me angry when I look at them.

In the end though I am really just upset because I like 40k and it could be so much more than it is. It's like watching a really creative, intelligent, fun person go fully off the rails. Hurts my heart space.

-Hxwlf