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 Kain wrote:
What's wrong with just making it a torrent or flamer template?

Let's not re-invent the wheel here.

It's a shockwave right? Flamer template makes sense.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Kain wrote:
What's wrong with just making it a torrent or flamer template?

Let's not re-invent the wheel here.

It's a shockwave right? Flamer template makes sense.

Which is exactly my point.

It definitely shouldn't be able to target fliers.

Wakshaani wrote:
I'm down for the one-shot-per-game rule, personally, along with "Once fired, the defensive portion is gone as well."

Just like that, thing's fixed.

^This.

I think there should be a basic guideline for 40k Proposed Rules like this: "keep it simple".

No new rules, no new numbers, no additional stuff. Just the same rule, yet fixed by changing 6 words.

Page 67 Eldar Codex. Serpent Shield entry. Change last sentence (If this option is used, the Serpent Shield is inactive until the start of its following turn) for "If this option is used, the Serpent Shield is inactive for the rest of the game."

Bharring wrote:
Making it one use only retains its strong Alpha, which I think needs to be nerfed. The thing shouldn't be artillery, and most of the range nerfs (or template, or torrent) handle that well.

You are right about being a too strong Alpha attack, but the elegance and simplicity of the solution is too much to discard.

I am glad to see a clear consensus agrees that its shooting needs a nerf. Clearly.

Me too!

Another proof that most people actually know which units are breaking the game and how to fix them.

if it's meant to be a last resort, just make it improve the vehicles 'explode' result if the eldar player wants to. at the last minute the shield collapses, throwing everyone around to their feet.

but I agree that a 6" to 12" range would be perfectly balanced, bar the fact that it'll then make the serpents ignore pens on a 2+, all the time.

one thing that annoys me is that you can't use the shield the turn after you shoot, but there's no rule saying you can't shoot it the turn after you use it. making the eldar player decide in the first turn whether he wants to risk his tank exploding or fire the shield next turn would really make it a bit less "I'm eldar so I do what I want, so there".

I agree with the general consensus of the vote.

All of the problems with the shield would be instantly solved if you returned the shield to just being a shield, and nothing else. If you want to give wave serpents more weapons, then give them more weapons.

Wave serpents have a TON of stuff going for them, what from being fast, being able to shoot extra guns on the move, being able to ignore terrain, being able to pass over impassable terrain, free cover saves, etc. They're already easily the best transport in the game, despite their low armor.

Honestly, they don't even really need a shield, but I understand that it's there for fluff reasons. Even if it was something as small as +1 to jink and gave the serpent adamantium will, or giving it blessed hull, or little things like that would likely be enough. The way it is now is absurd.

 Ailaros wrote:
I agree with the general consensus of the vote.

All of the problems with the shield would be instantly solved if you returned the shield to just being a shield, and nothing else. If you want to give wave serpents more weapons, then give them more weapons.

Wave serpents have a TON of stuff going for them, what from being fast, being able to shoot extra guns on the move, being able to ignore terrain, being able to pass over impassable terrain, free cover saves, etc. They're already easily the best transport in the game, despite their low armor.

Honestly, they don't even really need a shield, but I understand that it's there for fluff reasons. Even if it was something as small as +1 to jink and gave the serpent adamantium will, or giving it blessed hull, or little things like that would likely be enough. The way it is now is absurd.

They are not low armour - they are Av 12 front and sides even without the shield comparted to most transports and most importantly virtually gaurentee their passangers are immune to stunned etc results which can be devestating to "normal" transports......

Whilst its unfair for the Eldar ot only have the one broken D.transport - its also unfair to everyone else to have to play against them in numbers.............

The simplest/most elegant solution isn't adding a few words to make it one-use, its treating the 0 in its range as a typo...

It is unfair, Morden, to either the Eldar player who doesn't get a DT, or the other player who gets shot off the table. That is why many of us wish the thing were nerfed, as it would be more fair to both parties.

Oh, and while there are several reasonable complaints about the Dex, I really dont think "too much 2+ armor" is one of them.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

Bharring wrote:
No other faction pays as much for t3 infantry as Eldar. No other faction, fluffwise, is as mobile or has nearly as good transports. Add to it very little in the way of deep striking, and its really hard to do footdar. We need a decent transport.

No other faction has access to 9 point BS4 rending shooting.

No other faction has access to t6 troops who can hide in a vehicle.

No other faction has access to S10 T8.

No other faction has access to a tank that's meant to be a survivable transport but can rip your face off at a moments notice.

No other faction has access to no less than 6 eternal warriors

No other faction has access to 100 point ML3 psykers

No other faction has access to a tank with a weapon that can fulfil any given role at any given time.

No other army has access to 17 point troop jet bikes

Lose the "woe is me" attitude.

The 9point model has a 12" range, t3, and is APed by Bolt guns. Good but not game breaking.

Mark of Nurgle bikers are t6, have Jink, move 12", and several other things. The troops you're talking about are near Termite prices, and the transport they can use is the Serpent.

Wraithknight (our s10 t8) is a little OP. Our other MCs aren't that scary.

Our only 2+ armor are HQs in the Abby price range, but with only 3 wounds, and nowhere near the killyness. A simple Shield Eternal Captain outperforms here. The Phoenix Lords are fun, but not that strong.

Our Far seers are good, but they are t3 models that our armies are based around. If the Far seer is in place to do its job, then it is vulnerable. Good but hardly broken. Our Librarian equivalents aren't even LD 10 (spirit seer or warlock). And compare the warlock to a Primaries Psyker from the new IG... The Far seer is good, but as the cornerstone of our faction, it should be.

This whole discussion is about fixing our do-anything Serpents

Jet bikes are a problem. I haven't used them, but they are really cheap for troops with that much mobility.

Don't mistake my attitude for thinking Eldar are in trouble. I've been saying for a long time that Serpents and Jet Councils need nerfs, and the Wraithknight might also need one. However, I want to make sure we don't destroy them in the process.

(The Serpent is the only one I know quite well. My only Wraith is a Lord I'm looking to field, and I have no Jet bikes, as I don't think I'd enjoy them)

I think we're mostly on the same page, but its difficult to be objective when Eldar OPness keeps bashing people's heads in.

Bharring wrote:
The simplest/most elegant solution isn't adding a few words to make it one-use, its treating the 0 in its range as a typo...

It is unfair, Morden, to either the Eldar player who doesn't get a DT, or the other player who gets shot off the table. That is why many of us wish the thing were nerfed, as it would be more fair to both parties.

Oh, and while there are several reasonable complaints about the Dex, I really dont think "too much 2+ armor" is one of them..

That was my whole point - the present incranration is bad for both Eldar players - in that its way too OP but their only DT choice and to those who have to face the things.

I never mentioned 2+ armour - I was replying to the statement that the Wave Serpent has low armour - when its actually very well protected for a APC with front AND side armour of 12.

6" is quite short but seems reasonable - although a template might well work as well......

The 2+ comment was in reference to someone mentioning we have 6 models with 2+ armor and EW.

AV12 is mid-range armor. Against AV12, most armies can pop it at mid/short range reliably, but not necessarily at long range. Seems right. AV13 would be too much, and AV11 too little

(Rhinos are av11, but 35pts for t4 3+ infantry - 3 rhinos per Serpent, by cost)

Remember that Necron transports are AV13 skimmers, until their first pen, and aren't generally considered broken.

Bharring wrote:
The 2+ comment was in reference to someone mentioning we have 6 models with 2+ armor and EW.

AV12 is mid-range armor. Against AV12, most armies can pop it at mid/short range reliably, but not necessarily at long range. Seems right. AV13 would be too much, and AV11 too little

(Rhinos are av11, but 35pts for t4 3+ infantry - 3 rhinos per Serpent, by cost)

Remember that Necron transports are AV13 skimmers, until their first pen, and aren't generally considered broken.

AV 12 is good for a APC - especially one which also has fast, jink and a force shield, good armament and that normally ignores crew shaken and stunned results - all unlike Rhinos or Immolators - which are closer - having heavy weapons. Crew stunned / staggered can be hugely determinetal to pasengers as it stays in place even if they are thrown out - wrecked is a much better result for most trasported figures. Playing my Sisters I tened ot have at least one unit per game rendered useless and killed due to shaken or stunned results. my Dark Eldar are the same....

It costs four rhinos, unless you want it to take a load more damage from not having holofields.

It was designed as both APC and tank, not pure APC too; be glad it's not the 3rd edition rulebook version with AV14/14/10.

I've had a few different ideas to fix the Serpent Shield, many of which are mirrored by others. Personally I wouldn't take the "1 shot only" or "only a shield" rule changes without a point reduction in the Wave Serpent.

1) Reduce range to 24"
2) Change hits to D3+1
3) At the beginning of your movement phase, if the Serpent Shield was fired last turn, roll a die. On a 4+, the Shield repowers itself and may be used again. Otherwise, the shield is still recharging and cannot be used either for its defensive or shooting purposes.

The best way to fix Wave Serpents is to take 9 of them.
6 for your troops and 3 more for your elites.

After your opponent rage brakes all your transports, there will be plenty of fixing to do.

 Zakiriel wrote:
The best way to fix Wave Serpents is to take 9 of them.
6 for your troops and 3 more for your elites.

After your opponent rage brakes all your transports, there will be plenty of fixing to do.

You forgot the 3 for heavy support.

I forgot Dark Reapers can take Wave Serpents as well.
so that's 12 Wave serpents for the "Full Monty" then?

 Daba wrote:
It costs four rhinos, unless you want it to take a load more damage from not having holofields.

It was designed as both APC and tank, not pure APC too; be glad it's not the 3rd edition rulebook version with AV14/14/10.

It basically had 14/14/10 in fifth against S9 and 10.

There is so much butthurt in this thread you would think that Serpent spam was filling top 8s everywhere and not just dominating people in casual games.

Lets get real, the serpent is attractive as a tank because there isn't much else in the book to compete with it. Not to mention that top eldar lists are not even spamming them, they are running seer or beast stars. It fails as a transport because there isn't anything worth putting into the dam things because it doesn't have the assault rule. The only other option that can put out as much dakka is a full squad of scatter walkers.

So the main argument is that its too powerful of a shooting platform, but it averages 8 shots a turn for over 150 points. It does have those fun 11 shot turns, but just as many 6 shot turns.
There are many units that are putting out just as much firepower or more on just as mobile or defensive bodies.

Its only Av12 3 hull points so it dies as easily as any other tank, but it does have that 4+ cover. Really though if you don't have your armor parked in cover already you're doing it wrong. The main advantage is the serpent can move around and get better angles where other armor cannot.

Its str 6 and 7 so its wounding most things on 2+ but everyone gets their armor save so the ignores cover is really only affecting fliers and even then you're not dropping a flier with a single serpent. The high strength and high rate of fire is just something that every army is getting though so you may as well get used to it.

I'm sure I could think of more but I think most people are just dead set on blaming the serpent for all of their problems.

There is so much butthurt in this thread you would think that Serpent spam was filling top 8s everywhere and not just dominating people in casual games.

Lets get real, the serpent is attractive as a tank because there isn't much else in the book to compete with it. Not to mention that top eldar lists are not even spamming them, they are running seer or beast stars. It fails as a transport because there isn't anything worth putting into the dam things because it doesn't have the assault rule. The only other option that can put out as much dakka is a full squad of scatter walkers.

So the main argument is that its too powerful of a shooting platform, but it averages 8 shots a turn for over 150 points. It does have those fun 11 shot turns, but just as many 6 shot turns.
There are many units that are putting out just as much firepower or more on just as mobile or defensive bodies.

Its only Av12 3 hull points so it dies as easily as any other tank, but it does have that 4+ cover. Really though if you don't have your armor parked in cover already you're doing it wrong. The main advantage is the serpent can move around and get better angles where other armor cannot.

Its str 6 and 7 so its wounding most things on 2+ but everyone gets their armor save so the ignores cover is really only affecting fliers and even then you're not dropping a flier with a single serpent. The high strength and high rate of fire is just something that every army is getting though so you may as well get used to it.

I'm sure I could think of more but I think most people are just dead set on blaming the serpent for all of their problems.

Right on target Sir, have an Exalt.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Daba wrote:
It costs four rhinos, unless you want it to take a load more damage from not having holofields.

It was designed as both APC and tank, not pure APC too; be glad it's not the 3rd edition rulebook version with AV14/14/10.

It basically had 14/14/10 in fifth against S9 and 10.

Not the codex one; the rulebook one had 14/14/10 straight out, and was cheaper then today's Wave Serpent.

 Scipio Africanus wrote:

 Daba wrote:
It costs four rhinos, unless you want it to take a load more damage from not having holofields.

It was designed as both APC and tank, not pure APC too; be glad it's not the 3rd edition rulebook version with AV14/14/10.

It basically had 14/14/10 in fifth against S9 and 10.

Actually it was effectively 13/13/10 vs S9.

The pre-codex Eldar list just had it as 14/14/10. No special rules regarding the shield at all, no scaling. 14/14/10 against S1 through to 10.

 Zakiriel wrote:

There is so much butthurt in this thread you would think that Serpent spam was filling top 8s everywhere and not just dominating people in casual games.

Lets get real, the serpent is attractive as a tank because there isn't much else in the book to compete with it. Not to mention that top eldar lists are not even spamming them, they are running seer or beast stars. It fails as a transport because there isn't anything worth putting into the dam things because it doesn't have the assault rule. The only other option that can put out as much dakka is a full squad of scatter walkers.

So the main argument is that its too powerful of a shooting platform, but it averages 8 shots a turn for over 150 points. It does have those fun 11 shot turns, but just as many 6 shot turns.
There are many units that are putting out just as much firepower or more on just as mobile or defensive bodies.

Its only Av12 3 hull points so it dies as easily as any other tank, but it does have that 4+ cover. Really though if you don't have your armor parked in cover already you're doing it wrong. The main advantage is the serpent can move around and get better angles where other armor cannot.

Its str 6 and 7 so its wounding most things on 2+ but everyone gets their armor save so the ignores cover is really only affecting fliers and even then you're not dropping a flier with a single serpent. The high strength and high rate of fire is just something that every army is getting though so you may as well get used to it.

I'm sure I could think of more but I think most people are just dead set on blaming the serpent for all of their problems.

Right on target Sir, have an Exalt.

Oh look an Eldar player saying his broken unit is perfectily fine - sheesh............

It isn't broken, it's just too good.

An example of broken in the game is the assault phase where you are punished for winning in your own turn, or ATSKNF making time walking marines.

 Goldphish wrote:
There is so much butthurt in this thread you would think that Serpent spam was filling top 8s everywhere and not just dominating people in casual games.

Lets get real, the serpent is attractive as a tank because there isn't much else in the book to compete with it. Not to mention that top eldar lists are not even spamming them, they are running seer or beast stars. It fails as a transport because there isn't anything worth putting into the dam things because it doesn't have the assault rule. The only other option that can put out as much dakka is a full squad of scatter walkers.

So the main argument is that its too powerful of a shooting platform, but it averages 8 shots a turn for over 150 points. It does have those fun 11 shot turns, but just as many 6 shot turns.
There are many units that are putting out just as much firepower or more on just as mobile or defensive bodies.

Its only Av12 3 hull points so it dies as easily as any other tank, but it does have that 4+ cover. Really though if you don't have your armor parked in cover already you're doing it wrong. The main advantage is the serpent can move around and get better angles where other armor cannot.

Its str 6 and 7 so its wounding most things on 2+ but everyone gets their armor save so the ignores cover is really only affecting fliers and even then you're not dropping a flier with a single serpent. The high strength and high rate of fire is just something that every army is getting though so you may as well get used to it.

I'm sure I could think of more but I think most people are just dead set on blaming the serpent for all of their problems.

Yup, and that's why I want it banned. Use your feet, elf boy!

Here is an easy fix. Swap it for the Falcon. i.e. make it a Heavy Choice and the Falcon a dedicated transport.

No real reason with the current meta to change the Wave Serpent. Once you hit the other more important 'broken' combos in the game, proper anti-tank can weed their way into the game more and nullify the effectiveness of multiple Serpent lists.

Also, I'm curious to see how the new IG (yes, I said IG...deal with it) Codex does at bringing down multiple Serpents with their proliferation of anti-tank ability.

I have to disagree, the Wave Serpent (along with Tau) is largely responsible for the shift to deathstars due to the ammount of damage they can put out. While not uncounterable fixing them would be part of fixing the game as a whole. If they were a heavy choice it would make spamming them really a non-thing and players would need to sacrifice other choices to take them.

I think that points should stay the same and it should have the same defensive bonuses. I also think it should be able to take holo fields.

I think what needs to change is the weapon part of the shield. 60" is crazy, and I say that as an Eldar player. I think the maximum it should be is 24" and maybe not ignores cover. If people complain that the nerd is too heavy, maybe add in a rule where targets are repelled D6" or something? Not sure.

Breng77 wrote:
I have to disagree, the Wave Serpent (along with Tau) is largely responsible for the shift to deathstars due to the ammount of damage they can put out. While not uncounterable fixing them would be part of fixing the game as a whole. If they were a heavy choice it would make spamming them really a non-thing and players would need to sacrifice other choices to take them.

I believe the Daemon deathstar was played pretty heavily evne before the Eldar Codex hit....so not sure I can agree with you on that one.

Screamerstar was largely not played at all until after Tau came out, and even moreso after eldar. The use of Screamerstar was a response to essentially anything else getting blown off the table in short order.