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Yes, it is. Picking powers from Malefic implies a prior knowledge of daemonology, rather than something the psyker does on a whim.

The problem is that he's supposed to get shot to death in your upcoming shooting phase as everyone realises who're they fighting alongside.

I agree that a loyalist space marine summoning a a bloddthirster, or an eldar farseer summoing a slaneeshi daemon would be ridiculous, but what I hope to see (and plan to do myself with) is people using the fluff and using alternate models to "pretend" that the daemons being summoned aren't really daemons. For example, I saw a Space Wolf player on the forums the other day saying he will be summoning blood letters, but using converted space wolf models and pretending that they are the wulfen from the lost 13th company. If people can do this well, daemonolgy will add a really great fluff aspect to the game! (I hope to try and convert a bunch of savage boys from WHFB and use them as mad boys counting as blood letters to be summond by my weird boy)

MarsNZ wrote:
Yes, it is. Picking powers from Malefic implies a prior knowledge of daemonology, rather than something the psyker does on a whim.

Does it? I must be misreading the leak, then, because the only thing that implies this is the "vile ritual" wording of the Primaris, and that's hardly conclusive.

Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.

Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?

MarsNZ wrote:
Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.

Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?

You have a point. However, I still don't see how having the option to take something can be considered unfluffy. Because Librarians are well versed in warp-craft, it's entirely reasonable that they may have read from a forbidden grimoire. Therefore, it is possible, if unlikely, that they can know some forbidden rituals. And if it's possible in the fluff, it should be possible on the tabletop. Perhaps our different opinions come from how likely we think it is in the background?

To take the example we know, (Ezekiel), it seems reasonable to me that he could know how to summon a daemon. I take it you don't think so?

(Sorry if any of this sounds snippy - the questions are meant to see if we can pinpoint why we disagree )

 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

MarsNZ wrote:
Yes, it does. The fact that psykers are limited to certain disciplines obviously implies prior knowledge of those disciplines. Otherwise it'd be a psychic free-for-all.

Why can't I take Divination on my Chaos Sorceror? Is that representing my Sorc not liking that tree and therefore avoiding it even though it is entirely within his power to use it on a whim?

You have a point. However, I still don't see how having the option to take something can be considered unfluffy. Because Librarians are well versed in warp-craft, it's entirely reasonable that they may have read from a forbidden grimoire. Therefore, it is possible, if unlikely, that they can know some forbidden rituals. And if it's possible in the fluff, it should be possible on the tabletop. Perhaps our different opinions come from how likely we think it is in the background?

To take the example we know, (Ezekiel), it seems reasonable to me that he could know how to summon a daemon. I take it you don't think so?

(Sorry if any of this sounds snippy - the questions are meant to see if we can pinpoint why we disagree )

I think we're all forgetting the most important fact:

-Tzeentch could grant them the information on a whim if the psyker would ever give in to chaos. The psyker does not need to have had much study if a chaos god intervenes.
Taking into account that you select powers before going into battle, it's entirely possible to read that as the psyker predicting his faction's imminent failure in the fight, and takes pointers from Tzeentch to "ensure" success.

And then Tzeentch screws him over, just as planned.

 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?

I'd say... not necessarily, but the problems really start once the daemon arrives.

If the summoned daemon can be trusted to fight alongside the imperial forces - i.e. if the summoning player controls it like any other unit - then yes, it's against the background.

If the rest of the imperial force doesn't react to it then yes, it's against the background. Sure, there are space marine chapters that are already on the edge of renegade status who may not care, but can you imagine the Ultramarines taking no notice? The Space Wolves? Any Primaris Psyker who summons a daemon - regardless of the situation - is going to be summarily executed five seconds later by the nearest Commissar, no questions asked. And any loyalist guardsmen are going to panic when a giant bellowing warp abomination suddenly appears in their midst. Indeed the enemy would have to be dire for them not to see said daemon as the most immediate enemy threat on the battlefield and start shooting at it.

I hope there are rules to reflect at least some of this. I hope there's more to it than Perils of the Warp and CtA ally restrictions. I'm not confident there will be though.

I think it'd be interesting if, in a campaign, you started summoning daemons and your force slowly turned to Chaos over time. Last week you summoned a Daemon as a last resort, this week you're looking at your allies kinda funny...

 ashcroft wrote:

 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:
Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?

I'd say... not necessarily, but the problems really start once the daemon arrives.

If the summoned daemon can be trusted to fight alongside the imperial forces - i.e. if the summoning player controls it like any other unit - then yes, it's against the background.

If the rest of the imperial force doesn't react to it then yes, it's against the background. Sure, there are space marine chapters that are already on the edge of renegade status who may not care, but can you imagine the Ultramarines taking no notice? The Space Wolves? Any Primaris Psyker who summons a daemon - regardless of the situation - is going to be summarily executed five seconds later by the nearest Commissar, no questions asked. And any loyalist guardsmen are going to panic when a giant bellowing warp abomination suddenly appears in their midst. Indeed the enemy would have to be dire for them not to see said daemon as the most immediate enemy threat on the battlefield and start shooting at it.

I hope there are rules to reflect at least some of this. I hope there's more to it than Perils of the Warp and CtA ally restrictions. I'm not confident there will be though.

GW said there would be "dire consequences" if you used malefic daemonlogy and you aren't Chaos but it didn't go into specifics. And if anyone read the White Dwarf article that started this whole argument with Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster, it said they let the player use malefic Daemonlogy to see how things would come out which would tell me that he isn't suppose to be using those powers and they let him out of fun and see how it would progress. We still don't know the vast majority of who will get what powers only that GK can only use the santic Daemonology and that Chaos can only use the malefic. Everyone else has yet to be confirmed.

It is no more fluff-screwing than the allies matrix.

 SlaveToDorkness wrote:
It is no more fluff-screwing than the allies matrix.

Which they re-worked in for this rule set. No more Taudar!

If I recall correctly, couldn't the Thousand Sons pre-(and probably post-)Heresy summon some sort of familiars? I think, and again I'm not sure if I'm entirely right, that the familiars ended up being lesser daemons or some-such.

Now, these marines were all potent psykers and given years of training in forbidden lore to attain these skills, and it seemed hard enough for them to summon minor daemons. But now we have people willfully summoning up a Greater Demon, calling up to the sky "Khorne, you OWE me one!"

Obviously 40k lore has never been consistent, but a lot of what was inconsistent was the history of events, told from different viewpoints. This is more of a change of one of the core elements of 40k fluff, like as if the new Star Wars movie said "hey, everyone has metachlorians (which was stupid in-and-of-itself) and be a jedi/sith! In fact, it's always been this way!"

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.

This guy would like to have a talk with you.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Bludbaff wrote:
I was under the impression that Sanctic powers were going to be the new system for Faith. I mean, they are manifestations of the Emperor's will, right? That sounds an awful lot like Emperor-guided warp manifestations.

Faith does not work like psychic powers. You do not dispel Faith. You do not start magical duels of minds with Faith. You do not loose Faith because some psycher has a psychic hoods, or tyranid synapse creatures are nearby, or anything like that.

 Accolade wrote:
If I recall correctly, couldn't the Thousand Sons pre-(and probably post-)Heresy summon some sort of familiars? I think, and again I'm not sure if I'm entirely right, that the familiars ended up being lesser daemons or some-such.

Now, these marines were all potent psykers and given years of training in forbidden lore to attain these skills, and it seemed hard enough for them to summon minor daemons. But now we have people willfully summoning up a Greater Demon, calling up to the sky "Khorne, you OWE me one!"

Obviously 40k lore has never been consistent, but a lot of what was inconsistent was the history of events, told from different viewpoints. This is more of a change of one of the core elements of 40k fluff, like as if the new Star Wars movie said "hey, everyone has metachlorians (which was stupid in-and-of-itself) and be a jedi/sith! In fact, it's always been this way!"

Yes, the Thousand Sons did have familiars pre-heresy which were daemons in disguise. Tzeentch was wanting Magnus to be the start of the Heresy, not Horus. Those familiars were plants to ensure this happened but it was taking too long.

 Shas'o_Longshot wrote:

 Jehan-reznor wrote:
And all the people who try to justify it fluff wise, if you OPENLY deal with demons in the 40K universe then you are a heretic, even Inquisitors who use demons, get hunted down eventually.

No one is disagreeing with this. What's your point? Is it against the background for include a psyker (who happens to be fighting alongside a loyalist force) to give in to temptation and summon daemons?

It means the whole concept is a lot of BS, the whole 40k Lore is about silencing and killing those who had contact or know about demon's(Chaos) So if an Imperial Army uses demon's they should all count as massacred at the end of the battle because they are all executed by Commisars/Inquisitors/Chaplains etcetera.

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.

This guy would like to have a talk with you.

Hey there's always one bad apple in the bunch and he was immediately taken care of. And I think there's a saying about people throwing stones in glass houses. Link

 Envihon wrote:
GW said there would be "dire consequences" if you used malefic daemonlogy and you aren't Chaos but it didn't go into specifics. And if anyone read the White Dwarf article that started this whole argument with Ezekiel summoning a Bloodthirster, it said they let the player use malefic Daemonlogy to see how things would come out which would tell me that he isn't suppose to be using those powers and they let him out of fun and see how it would progress. We still don't know the vast majority of who will get what powers only that GK can only use the santic Daemonology and that Chaos can only use the malefic. Everyone else has yet to be confirmed.

It's been confirmed, there was a couple things on BoLS, reddit, etc... Who's getting what powers

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Hey man! We're so loyal we have a VIP club card! I believe you're referring to our 13th Company who had a bad case of geneseed and WILLINGLY threw themselves into the Warp to battle the forces of Chaos. Let's see your Salamanders do that.

This guy would like to have a talk with you.

Hey there's always one bad apple in the bunch and he was immediately taken care of. And I think there's a saying about people throwing stones in glass houses. Link

Now show me the grey knight who fell to chaos..... OH WAIT....

As a Space Wolf player I'm honestly pretty excited about the whole thing. Would my Space Wolves summon a squad of Bloodletters? No. But they would bring in a squad of full on werewolves that I've converted from Bloodletters. My Rune Priest wouldn't sell his soul to a Blood Thurster either. Though he would trade his life to the Red Moon God for help.

This will let me use werewolves with my Space Wolves, so I like it. I can understand where plenty of people will have trouble with it though.

Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.

 beezley1981 wrote:
As a Space Wolf player I'm honestly pretty excited about the whole thing. Would my Space Wolves summon a squad of Bloodletters? No. But they would bring in a squad of full on werewolves that I've converted from Bloodletters. My Rune Priest wouldn't sell his soul to a Blood Thurster either. Though he would trade his life to the Red Moon God for help.

This will let me use werewolves with my Space Wolves, so I like it. I can understand where plenty of people will have trouble with it though.

Yes through some conversions it would be really cool but IG and smurf marines and even my beloved GKs dont have anything that equals up to that. There in lies the problem.

well not the whole problem. the major issue in my opinion is that GW or the Black Library guys or who ever is much better at writing interesting and engaging stories than they are at writing sensible rules. And they are even worse at making those rules reflect the stories they have already told. And as fans and followers of these stories we as hobbyist expect them to live up to that and when they dont we get angry (and rightfully so) so i think thats the issue. Who knows maybe after some FAQ's and a few more codex updates everything will straighten out and 7th will be the godsend to fix 6th or it might just all be crap and crumble around our ears. But those are my thoughts on it.

 Musashi363 wrote:
Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.

Exorcist space marines gotta get possessed somehow right?

 herpguy wrote:
In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?

Now that the allies chart has been leaked, it's something that really annoys me.

Imperials cannot ally in any sense (other than 'Come the Apocalypse') with Daemons, or with Chaos Marines, but they can summon daemons.


Really? Even in the 'narrative', it seems A LOT more freaking likely that an Imperial force might ally with CSM than just summon some daemons. I don't see it happening all that often, but I could see CSM and IG fighting off Tyranids, or fighting off Necrons, much more plausibly than a sanctioned Psycher just deciding to jump over the fence and summon a daemon or two.

I mean, sure, I can see that 'narratively', sometimes a psyker has a crisis of confidence, or a moment of weakness, and takes the plunge. But those things seem like the extreme exception to the rule, rather than something that might happen every so often. I mean, Space Marines sometimes turn to chaos, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Orks occasionally work as mercenaries for Imperial forces, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Space Marines sometimes walk around in tabards sipping water, but that isn't reflected in the rules.

I just think it's something that happens, sure, but something that happens so infrequently that GW shouldn't have been tempted to write rules for it.

On the other hand, it's an easy way to sell a Daemon codex and some models. It blows my mind that they used to allow CSM armies to have daemons, took that away from them, then allowed allies, and now allow CSM to summon daemons again. FFS, make up your minds!

Also, it's totally ridiculous to have rules allowing Tau to have human allies with Tau gear, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow Genestealer Cult armies, with suborned PDF forces and Genestealers, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow traitor guardsmen, despite it being ALL OVER the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow IG to have Blood Axe allies, despite being in the fluff and being a way to sell more models.

But if some idiot has ever, anywhere, summoned a daemon, then we have to have rules to allow every Space Marine Librarian and Eldar Farseer to do it, so we can sell more models.

Now an ultramarine librarian can summon a bloodthirster and the marines around him are ok with it? This is total stupidity and not the same game I've been playing for twenty years.

I'm done with playing 40k if this is the new idiocy it endorses.

Your psycher can go behind blos alone, summon daemons from there and when he's gona get asked about daemons he can make round eyes and say: "Daemons?! I haven't seen no daemons! I was just going behind a bush..."

And then they start running around Benny Hill style.

Da Butcha wrote:

 herpguy wrote:
In the wake of the new psychic power leaks it is really getting quite annoying now how having to argue with people that is makes no sense for anybody but chaos to summon daemons. It is really getting quite tiresome. Is anybody else having these issues?

Now that the allies chart has been leaked, it's something that really annoys me.

Imperials cannot ally in any sense (other than 'Come the Apocalypse') with Daemons, or with Chaos Marines, but they can summon daemons.


Really? Even in the 'narrative', it seems A LOT more freaking likely that an Imperial force might ally with CSM than just summon some daemons. I don't see it happening all that often, but I could see CSM and IG fighting off Tyranids, or fighting off Necrons, much more plausibly than a sanctioned Psycher just deciding to jump over the fence and summon a daemon or two.

I mean, sure, I can see that 'narratively', sometimes a psyker has a crisis of confidence, or a moment of weakness, and takes the plunge. But those things seem like the extreme exception to the rule, rather than something that might happen every so often. I mean, Space Marines sometimes turn to chaos, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Orks occasionally work as mercenaries for Imperial forces, but that isn't reflected in the rules. Space Marines sometimes walk around in tabards sipping water, but that isn't reflected in the rules.

I just think it's something that happens, sure, but something that happens so infrequently that GW shouldn't have been tempted to write rules for it.

On the other hand, it's an easy way to sell a Daemon codex and some models. It blows my mind that they used to allow CSM armies to have daemons, took that away from them, then allowed allies, and now allow CSM to summon daemons again. FFS, make up your minds!

Also, it's totally ridiculous to have rules allowing Tau to have human allies with Tau gear, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow Genestealer Cult armies, with suborned PDF forces and Genestealers, despite it being in the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow traitor guardsmen, despite it being ALL OVER the fluff, and being a way to sell more models. It's totally ridiculous to allow IG to have Blood Axe allies, despite being in the fluff and being a way to sell more models.

But if some idiot has ever, anywhere, summoned a daemon, then we have to have rules to allow every Space Marine Librarian and Eldar Farseer to do it, so we can sell more models.

This.

These are pretty much my sentiments exactly. It's quite annoying that everybody else in my gaming group (no other chaos players) say that I'm just whining and that it makes perfect sense for a sm to summon daemons (sm players saying this) to represent a moment of weakness. It is just mind-boggling that anybody who has read any shred of space marine fluff would be okay with this. Eldar are probably even less likely to have this happen, as summoning a daemon most certainly damns their soul and opens up a gateway to probably damn the whole craftworld to being a Slaanesh buffet.

That the daemons are under the players control if they are not chaos is what breaks this completely. IF some crazed librarian summons a daemon, that daemon most certainly will not do the will of whoever is commanding the space marine force. Anyways, I'm sure it could be counted on a pair of hands the amount of times a librarian has gone insane enough to summon daemons in TEN THOUSAND YEARS of history.

As you said, the new allies chart is the even bigger kick in the nuts. I can't see how people can argue for something like random daemon summoning to be common enough to be in the rules when there can't even be TRAITOR GUARD, which are pretty much a part of every single major CSM warband.

nvm

Jehan-reznor wrote:It means the whole concept is a lot of BS, the whole 40k Lore is about silencing and killing those who had contact or know about demon's(Chaos) So if an Imperial Army uses demon's they should all count as massacred at the end of the battle because they are all executed by Commisars/Inquisitors/Chaplains etcetera.

I don't know about you, but that sounds like a kick-ass idea for a follow-up game...

Musashi363 wrote:Name a book or any piece of fluff, when a completely loyal SM librarian summoned a demon and he didn't fall to chaos and everybody thought it was cool and didn't purge him on the spot. NOT fluffy, in fact it's pants on head.

Now you're being ridiculous. If he's summoning a daemon, he's either misguided or not completely loyal. Why would a loyalist think it was "cool"?

 Thorgrim Bloodcrow wrote:
Hey there's always one bad apple in the bunch and he was immediately taken care of.

Do you mean several bad apples, not all of which were taken care of? Can you provide examples of Salamanders falling this way?

 Hybrid Son Of Oxayotl wrote:

Do you mean several bad apples, not all of which were taken care of? Can you provide examples of Salamanders falling this way?

That's a poor piece of background in my opinion. Those who become Space Wolves are supposed to be dying before they're claimed by the Chapter. That alongside their further training and indoctrination should mean that they're not afraid of simply dying. No Space Marine should be.