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 Sigvatr wrote:
Well, actually, RAW, that's what you get - every unit gets the same amount of hits.

Yup, that is what you get with strict RAW reading. The original Codex rule was very poorly written, missing the implicit "as there are models [i](from the unit)[/[i] under the beam".
But Ghost Ark's Repair Barge rule is kinda same: it just says add D3 models to the unit, with no restriction on the types of models. So adding Marneus Galgar is just fine according to RAW (though you might get some wonky rules interactions with allies rules if you do it).

And there's the classic 6e example that models without eyes cannot draw LOS for shooting.

All three are obviously against RAI when any sane player reads the rules , but hey, strict RAW is strict RAW. It is not supposed to make sense. Though to be consistent, if one defends one strict RAW reading, one should be ready to defend all of them.

 Sigvatr wrote:
This appears to be RAI as well given that IA 12 is out for a long time and despite the codex getting a FAQ on this, IA 12 hasn't.

Quite strange argument. In my opionion (and by Occam's Razor) the situation is just opposite.
Fact that they copy-pasted the original wording from Codex means that the only sensible explanation for RAI is that Death Ray in IA is supposed to work same way as Death Ray in Codex.
Forgeworld just didn't realise that codex rule was not written clearly enough and assumed that everyone would go with their interpretation (quite common mistake in both GW and FW rules).

Considering that we know the RAI for Codex (as per FAQ), it should be pretty trivial to divulge the RAI for IA.
As for the argument that "It must be RAI as it is not fixed yet", it is very poor one. It might work if GW/FW actually had a track record for updating FAQ's in timely manner and fixing problems when they appear, but in that case we would have FAQ answer stating that "yes, it is supposed to work that way".
As a final point, The Repair Barge rule had FAQ, but it didn't fix the any model portion of the rule, so should we consider adding [n]any[/b] model to the Warrior unit RAI too?

 Sigvatr wrote:
People in our meta have mostly shifted to not fielding infantry outside transporters in order to avoid being laz0rd to death in turn 1.

If you're gonna abuse poorly written rules where RAI is clear, why not go for the Repair Barge one? Far more efficient. No need to even go for cross-Codex. 7e allows you to add D3 CCB lords to the Warrior Squad each turn.

Actually, its the exact same as people tried to do with the original death ray. Each unit get hit just like the death ray.

 Sigvatr wrote:
Well, actually, RAW, that's what you get - every unit gets the same amount of hits. This appears to be RAI as well given that IA 12 is out for a long time and despite the codex getting a FAQ on this, IA 12 hasn't.

Dude, come on.
4 models in a single unit are hit by the line, and only 1 model in a second unit are hit, but both units get 10 hits each?
There is no way that is how the rule was intended to be played.

Just because they haven't gotten around to releasing a FAQ for it does not mean it is guaranteed perfect as is.

What you think about Stomps?
It shouldn't be affected by invisibility IMO.

I've changed my mind about this after reading another thread on the YMDC.

The Shooting Sequence clearly states you must Choose a Target before you even select a weapon.

So technically RAW you 1. Nominate Unit to Shoot, 2. Choose a Target (Invisible Units are not a valid target with Death Ray becaus it cannot fire Snap Shots), 3. Choose your weapon (too late for the Death Ray, see #2), 4. Fire

You'd have to Choose a Target other than the Invisible unit, which would usually be doable.

Does it have to be a unit you choose to shoot at?
(you can't just nominate the point on the table as your chosen target?)

 skoffs wrote:
Does it have to be a unit you choose to shoot at?
(you can't just nominate the point on the table as your chosen target?)

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot...

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon..."

see bolded

I do think RAI for the Death Ray is never having to pick a target, but RAW its hard to get around the Shooting Sequence table, as paraphrased in the quote.

 jasper76 wrote:
I've changed my mind about this after reading another thread on the YMDC.

The Shooting Sequence clearly states you must Choose a Target before you even select a weapon.

So technically RAW you 1. Nominate Unit to Shoot, 2. Choose a Target (Invisible Units are not a valid target with Death Ray becaus it cannot fire Snap Shots), 3. Choose your weapon (too late for the Death Ray, see #2), 4. Fire

You'd have to Choose a Target other than the Invisible unit, which would usually be doable.

Doesn't the specific rule in the codex override the general shooting rules in the brb? The codex says you nominate two points on the battlefield with no mention of targeting. The weapon fires and everything under the line is hit. So to me the whole snap shooting business is irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

Otherwise invisible units would be immune to blasts that drifted onto them too. Has that been resolved?

the_hanged_man wrote:

 jasper76 wrote:
I've changed my mind about this after reading another thread on the YMDC.

The Shooting Sequence clearly states you must Choose a Target before you even select a weapon.

So technically RAW you 1. Nominate Unit to Shoot, 2. Choose a Target (Invisible Units are not a valid target with Death Ray becaus it cannot fire Snap Shots), 3. Choose your weapon (too late for the Death Ray, see #2), 4. Fire

You'd have to Choose a Target other than the Invisible unit, which would usually be doable.

Doesn't the specific rule in the codex override the general shooting rules in the brb? The codex says you nominate two points on the battlefield with no mention of targeting. The weapon fires and everything under the line is hit. So to me the whole snap shooting business is irrelevant. Or am I missing something?

According to the main rulebook, you have to choose a target before you even select a weapon.

The Death Ray rule tells you how to Fire it, which is I think about 2 steps after you choose a target in the main rulebook Shooting Sequence.

 jasper76 wrote:


According to the main rulebook, you have to choose a target before you even select a weapon.

I see what you are saying. I think you could make an argument though that the death ray is meant to have a different rules for shooting by the codex. It does say nominate two points which is inconistent with the normal rules for shooting. This needs a FAQ.

Yeah, I think RAI is definitely don't bother to pick targets, just nominate 2 points.

But because you have to select target before you select a weapon in the Shooting Sequence, anyone who wanted to make you pick a target could do so. There is nothing in the codex or FAQs to argue against the rule in the Main Rulebook for having to target a unit before choosing a weapon.


Loophole: I think you could pick any target within LoS of the Death Ray....any target unit in range will do (dont pick any units with Invisibility or Jink). Then just ignore the unit you picked, place your 2 points wherever you like, and fire away.

You could probably also use the Death Ray special rule to tell your opponent that Choosing a Target does not apply to the Death Ray. I think there's enough gray area here to argue both sides. Without a clarifiying FAQ, I could see both interpretations being correct.

You do choose a target with the Death Ray. Point 1. Then you choose point 2. Its the more advanced rule.

The BRB mandates that you Choose a Target, which is stated specifically as being an enemy unit, before you even select a weapon.

Anyways, I posted it to the YMDC forum, cuz I think both sides are correct, and this really needs an FAQ ro resolve: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/598418.page

Right, but as it has been stated, the Doomscythes death ray does not need to nominate a unit. It has specific rules that state how to fire it. It specifies that even though you don't choose a target, your tesla destructor must target a unit hit by the death ray.

Just as the BRB states you cant shoot your own units (at least I hope it still says that) The death ray allows you to hit friendly and enemy models.

The argument of the BRB requiring you to choose a unit to target is bypassed completely by the special rule "Death Ray".

Doomscythe is the new heldrake!

Meh...at best, I think you have a roll-off situation.

I don't see anything in the Death Ray rules that specifically allow you to bypass Step 2 of the shooting phase, other than common sense.

Common sense doesn't always = a happy solution that all your opponents are going to agree to.

The way I read it is this RAW:

1. Choose a unit to fire (Doom Scythe)
2. Choose a target enemyt unit to fire at (pick one in LOS and firing range)
3. Choose a weapon to fire (Death Ray)
GOTO Death Ray Rule
a. Nominate Point A
b. Nominate Point B
c. Roll 3d6
etc

I must admit, there's something intriguing about that whole business with the-

1: nominate enemy unit A over there (within range of Doomscythe) as "target" to satisfy rules for shooting.
2: select Death Ray as weapon to be fired.
3: completely disregard unit A and nominate starting point for beam right next to unit B (which happens to be invisible).
4: roll 3D6, draw line through unit B trying to hit as many models as you can.
5: trollface.

Seriously, it's completely RAW proof as far as I can tell.

Actually, if you read "Choose a Target" p. 30, the target doesn't even have to be in range...only line of sight.

So its more like:

1. nominate any unit that the DR has line of site on.
2. select your DR
3. DR mechanics take over

 jasper76 wrote:
Actually, if you read "Choose a Target" p. 30, the target doesn't even have to be in range...only line of sight.

So its more like:

1. nominate any unit that the DR has line of site on.
2. select your DR
3. DR mechanics take over

Yeah, that sounds good to me.
"I am nominating that target over there... I select this point WAAAAAY over here, roll 3D6, choose direction. Oh no! My death ray hit a different target, silly death ray, now I have to shoot at that target with my tesla cannon as well."

Or you could just snap fire your tesla at that invisible unit, then do whatever the hell you want with your death ray, as long as it hits the invisible unit.

Luide wrote:
Though to be consistent, if one defends one strict RAW reading, one should be ready to defend all of them.

This. It works both ways. RAW is perfectly clear and while it is an advantage in this case, it is (was) a disadvantage in the other - like Anrakyr not being able to use his special ability from a CCB despite having, common sense wise, clear LoS to about anything. RAW, however, he hasn't.

 jasper76 wrote:

 skoffs wrote:
Does it have to be a unit you choose to shoot at?
(you can't just nominate the point on the table as your chosen target?)

"1. Nominate Unit to Shoot...

2. Choose a Target. The unit can shoot at an enemy unit that it can see.

3. Select a Weapon..."

see bolded

I do think RAI for the Death Ray is never having to pick a target, but RAW its hard to get around the Shooting Sequence table, as paraphrased in the quote.

1. Doom Scythe.

2. I choose non-invisible unit X that is no where near the invisible unit.

3. Select Death ray

4. Resolve death ray on invisible unit with no further reference to unit X.

EDIT; oops didnt see the move to YMDC, this has been covered there.