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Right which is why it is a broken spell now because there is no correlation between Warp Charge 1-3 and how many Warp Charges you can actually expend. Before there kind of was if you spent 2 Warp Charges it was basically a Level 2 spell, now that's gone and well that kind of messes things up for a Spell that says it's 1-3.

RAW people have pointed out that there are no in fact rules on dealing wtih a spell that is 1-3, we can get around this by applying some basic logic, but strictly RAW there's no instruction anymore on how to deal with this. Plus add in that it's restricted by it's own wording in the new rules to 1,2,3 Warp charge, and that expenditure or expending warp charge is different and you have a whole mess of rules.

It has to be at this point be a kind of mash up of RAI and RAW. Without a FAQ though strictly RAw you can't use the spell cause there's nothing that says what the hell 1-3 means, I disagree and think you can kind of get around that.

It's a mess of a spell right now.

So RaW we can't roll more than 3 dice at the spell. RaW throwing 3 dice gives us 4d6 shots if successful. RaW the Warp Charge cost is 1-3 with no way to determine which therefore you must get 3 successes to ensure you've met the roll.

So Flickering Fire is uber terrible RaW as you have to thriw 3 fice and get 3 successes to ever cast it.

Or we engage our brains work out that the rule was written in 6th using 6th terminology and we can just substitute in the relevant 7th terminology and have the spell work as it is clearly intended...

Its not RAW though. Your trying to apply terminology in a way that it is not intended. Every 6th edition codex with Psychic Powers have a Warp Charge Point value. In the same codex. Bolt of Change. Warp Charge (Point) 1. Beam.

The word (Point) is left out but it is defined in the rules. Those are Warp Charge Points that you spend on the power.

With 7th edition now, all of those have changed to a Warp Charge Cost and Warp Charge Points are the dice pool. You cannot apply the terminology to some of the 6th edition codex powers and not all of them, unless you claim that no 6th edition codex power can ever use more dice than the stated value on each spell.

 FlingitNow wrote:
So RaW we can't roll more than 3 dice at the spell. RaW throwing 3 dice gives us 4d6 shots if successful. RaW the Warp Charge cost is 1-3 with no way to determine which therefore you must get 3 successes to ensure you've met the roll.

So Flickering Fire is uber terrible RaW as you have to thriw 3 fice and get 3 successes to ever cast it.

Or we engage our brains work out that the rule was written in 6th using 6th terminology and we can just substitute in the relevant 7th terminology and have the spell work as it is clearly intended...

Right but the thing is we have no idea how it was intended to work in 7th, I personally think it is suppose to be a Level 1 , Level 2, or Level 3 spell and we should ignore the whole "Manifest only using XXX".

I think that's the fairest way to actually make it work.

RAW yea, there's no way to tell what something that's 1-3 does simply because you can draw multiple very valid conclusions from. One conclusion though is false. We know that it cannot under any circumstance be all 3 levels at once.

So RAW yes, you most certainly can cast it at Level 1 with 3 Warp Charge and get 4d6.

Other people are arguing that we're not explicitly told to do this and don't have permission to do it. However this was how it was in 6th that you selected it's spell level. In seventh it has to have a definitive cost, so we can just by pure normal logic know that a statement that says Warp Charge 1-3 means pick one of those because you can't in fact pick all three.

You're correct though that the other side of the argument that it actually is a 1-3 spell all at the same time makes it really really weird RAW but again we run into the later part of the spell saying if you expend Warp Charge after the 1st...

Basically scrap the whole spell go with RAI and say it can be picked as a level 1 , ,2, 3 spell cause it does not work at all right now because of all the different rule changes.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Fragile wrote:
Its not RAW though. Your trying to apply terminology in a way that it is not intended. Every 6th edition codex with Psychic Powers have a Warp Charge Point value. In the same codex. Bolt of Change. Warp Charge (Point) 1. Beam.

The word (Point) is left out but it is defined in the rules. Those are Warp Charge Points that you spend on the power.

With 7th edition now, all of those have changed to a Warp Charge Cost and Warp Charge Points are the dice pool. You cannot apply the terminology to some of the 6th edition codex powers and not all of them, unless you claim that no 6th edition codex power can ever use more dice than the stated value on each spell.

Right this is the other side of the argument, because we know that we can in fact use more Warp Charge than what a spells cost, we get the interpretation that you can cast a level 1 at 4D6 if you use 3 Warp charge and I think its perfectly valid. The problem that comes up is the stupid spell has that 1 , 2, or 3 to manifest restriction and that's what's the big giant problem. It actually limits the 7th edition rules for normally casting a spell, but we can't disregard because if we do then we have a situation where you could expend 10 Warp charge and the spell would do 11D6
which is obviously not the intention.
That's the problem, all of these arguments are valid, you just have to decide what your going to do. There's no RAW that doesn't involve some sort of RAI.

The intended use of this spell is
1. It can only ever be 4D6, there is no way to go above that , which is why it has those restriction.
2. It's multi cost to reflect that, it's a level 1 , 2, or 3 in 6th in order to reflect you are using 1, 2, 3 warp charge to power it and that is your max.

In 7th
gak get's wonky.

1. We know it's suppose to max out at 4D6 and that 4D6 should be level 3

So do your RAI that way cause RAW it really does not work. All these points people have brought up are perfectly valid and make sense.

It seems really dimple to me. Warp charges are the number of successes needed to cast psychic powers. So when manifesting it, you decide whether your putting 1,2 or 3 warpcharges into it. For every warpcharge you put into it you need a 4+ to pass.

Just think of it as a level 1. 2 or 3. Call out what your doing, IE IM TRYING FOR a level one casting. Pick up 3 dice roll them get two 4's only needed one but it's a success. Roll the 2 d6 for the shots. No need to complicate it and break it either way.

Another example , if you wanna try the 4 d6 version of the spell, your going to need 3, 4's to get a success so rolling 9 dice is roughly a 90% success rate getting 3 or more 4's to cast it. If you try for the 3 warp charge spell your going to need 3 successes anything less is a failure.

It's how I play it.

Right but the thing is we have no idea how it was intended to work in 7th, I personally think it is suppose to be a Level 1 , Level 2, or Level 3 spell and we should ignore the whole "Manifest only using XXX". 

I disagree entirely that we have no idea how was intended to work. It is blatantly obvious how it is intended to work. Nothing in 7th fundamentally changed how the power works and nothing has told us to change how the power works so it works as it did. Declare level attempt to cast.

RAW yea, there's no way to tell what something that's 1-3 does simply because you can draw multiple very valid conclusions from. One conclusion though is false. We know that it cannot under any circumstance be all 3 levels at once. 

So RAW yes, you most certainly can cast it at Level 1 with 3 Warp Charge and get 4d6. 

Again this is incorrect. We know it must be 1, 2 or 3. You have no permission to declare it a level 1 RaW. So you can't. The level RaW is an undetermined integer between 1 & 3 inclusively. Therefore you need 3 success to be able to guarantee you have met the criteria. Thus you have to roll 3 dice to have any chance of success and even then all 3 dice must show a 4 or higher. That is the RaW.

 FlingitNow wrote:

Right but the thing is we have no idea how it was intended to work in 7th, I personally think it is suppose to be a Level 1 , Level 2, or Level 3 spell and we should ignore the whole "Manifest only using XXX". 

I disagree entirely that we have no idea how was intended to work. It is blatantly obvious how it is intended to work. Nothing in 7th fundamentally changed how the power works and nothing has told us to change how the power works so it works as it did. Declare level attempt to cast.

RAW yea, there's no way to tell what something that's 1-3 does simply because you can draw multiple very valid conclusions from. One conclusion though is false. We know that it cannot under any circumstance be all 3 levels at once. 

So RAW yes, you most certainly can cast it at Level 1 with 3 Warp Charge and get 4d6. 

Again this is incorrect. We know it must be 1, 2 or 3. You have no permission to declare it a level 1 RaW. So you can't. The level RaW is an undetermined integer between 1 & 3 inclusively. Therefore you need 3 success to be able to guarantee you have met the criteria. Thus you have to roll 3 dice to have any chance of success and even then all 3 dice must show a 4 or higher. That is the RaW.

See that's a valid argument, and I brought it up because of this ,but as I stated previously you have to choose a number between 1-3 because it has to be one of those three. We can't pick all 3 so it has to be one of the 3.
It can't have "multiple" Warp Levels, this makes it "undefined", meaning that it exists in a state of being 1-3 all the times and that simple doesn't work because of this statement here.

If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic power’s description, the Psychic test is successful....If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic power’s description, the Psychic test is successful.

Rolling one result of 4+ satisfies the requirement if you believe it to be a 1-3 as at minimum you need 1 success for it to succeed as that is a Range needed to satisfy the result of manifesting the power.

Then you run into this problem, it's stated cost is 1-3 does that 1 satisfy that as a success? You've clearly satisfied the requirement of part of it ,but not all of it which makes it a "undefined" result. We can't get a " don't know" both sides of that argument are equally viable as we have no further instruction beyond that. If we do then the game just "stops" because you have to wait for that to resolve and it's stuck in this weird state of being something and not being something. We get "stuck".


Also, we know that it has to have a definitive cost.. it can't be 1-3 , it has to be one of those numbers but just because we are not told that does not mean that we cannot choose that. Why? Because we know that it doesn't work if it has multiple "states". If we know that a spell has to have 1 cost ( which honestly isn't really in the rules exactly) , then we can infer that we can in fact choose.


Now for the statement of " We don't have permission to declare that it is a level 1", well we don't need it because :

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence

1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

The rules themselves give us the ability to manifest a psychic power, we have to select it as a psychic power and we have to say how many warp charge we are using, which maximizes because of the spell to 3.

Again, we have to declare it to be one of those levels or we run into a state of being a False/True statement and the game ceases because it cannot resolve itself.

It is weirdly almost in a quantum state , which I don't think I would have ever written for a spell. There's no argument here, it's at one True and at once False. It's true because it's Warp Charge is 1-3 and succeeds on 1, 2, 3 dice.

Now with your solution you state you need all 3 to be successful, which isn't exactly true. It's a range of Warp Charge, that satifies the statement of 1 Warp Charge needing 1 success. That's why you can't have it be all 3 at once.

Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 1.
Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 2.
Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 3.

So no matter the actual value required between 1 & 3 having 3 successes is successful. Is the same true of 1 or 2? If not then getting you can't saying harnessing 1 or 2 WC is enough to cast unless given further information.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 1.
Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 2.
Having 3 successes is a success if the cost is Warp Charge 3.

So no matter the actual value required between 1 & 3 having 3 successes is successful. Is the same true of 1 or 2? If not then getting you can't saying harnessing 1 or 2 WC is enough to cast unless given further information.

I think we should step away from using the abreviation 1-3 as it can be confusing shorthand.

Having 1 Success w/ Warp Charge 1 is Success
Having 1 Success w/ Warp Charge 2 is not
Having 1 Success w/ Warp Charge 3 is not

Having 2 Success w/ Warp Charge 1 is Success
Having 2 Success w/ Warp Charge 2 is Success
Having 2 Success w/ Warp Charge 3 is not


You do not have to fact roll 3 success to be successful at the spell if you interpret is as being a 1-3 warp charge spell all concurently at the same time which is why stepping away from that thinking is kind of correct as that is just a abreviated version of the following.


Warp Charge 1, Warp Charge 2, Warp Charge 3 is actually what that statement means. You have to pick one of those. You can not have it be all of them at the same time as the spell doesn't function.

Yes it must be one of them we have no way to determine which. If you select a particular number you are creating rules out of thin air. Rolling 3 successes is the only way to fulfill a successful criteria regardless of which of the 3 unknown scores we are to meet. Thus it is the only way to cast the power RaW, if you claim that you must know which value you are aiming for then the result is simply the power can never be manifested. Under no RaW or RaI does throwing 3 dice and getting one 4+ roll result in 4d6 shots.

 FlingitNow wrote:
Yes it must be one of them we have no way to determine which. If you select a particular number you are creating rules out of thin air. Rolling 3 successes is the only way to fulfill a successful criteria regardless of which of the 3 unknown scores we are to meet. Thus it is the only way to cast the power RaW, if you claim that you must know which value you are aiming for then the result is simply the power can never be manifested. Under no RaW or RaI does throwing 3 dice and getting one 4+ roll result in 4d6 shots.

I've stated why we have to pick one those numbers, and why we cannot in fact treat it as a Level 1, Level 2, Level 3 spell at the same time.

If I pick that I will cast it as a Level 1 spell which is one of it's options, we have to pick one of those as we know we cannot pick all of them.

Can you pick it to be a Level 1 , 2, and 3 Spell at the same time and why?

It's not that you need permission its that you can only do one thing because all other options are eliminated.

Show permission to pick a number. You claim that you can't manifest the power unless you pick a number but still no permission to pick a number. That is not permission to pick a number at best you've shown you can never manifest the power as not enough information is given to do so.

So no you can't RaW roll 3 dice get a single 4+ and manifest the power with 4d6 shots.

Hollismason wrote:

Right this is the other side of the argument, because we know that we can in fact use more Warp Charge than what a spells cost, we get the interpretation that you can cast a level 1 at 4D6 if you use 3 Warp charge and I think its perfectly valid. The problem that comes up is the stupid spell has that 1 , 2, or 3 to manifest restriction and that's what's the big giant problem. It actually limits the 7th edition rules for normally casting a spell, but we can't disregard because if we do then we have a situation where you could expend 10 Warp charge and the spell would do 11D6
which is obviously not the intention.
That's the problem, all of these arguments are valid, you just have to decide what your going to do. There's no RAW that doesn't involve some sort of RAI.

The intended use of this spell is
1. It can only ever be 4D6, there is no way to go above that , which is why it has those restriction.
2. It's multi cost to reflect that, it's a level 1 , 2, or 3 in 6th in order to reflect you are using 1, 2, 3 warp charge to power it and that is your max.

In 7th
gak get's wonky.

1. We know it's suppose to max out at 4D6 and that 4D6 should be level 3

So do your RAI that way cause RAW it really does not work. All these points people have brought up are perfectly valid and make sense.

Your missing my point. Your focusing on the [ Flickering Fire can be manifested using 1, 2, or 3 Warp Charge points ]. Your failing to take into account that all the costs in 6th were in Warp Charge Points. This changed to Warp Charge Cost in 7th.

Replacing those terms removes your whole argument.

Yes, I see what you are saying I think..

You mean to say that this

... can be manifested using 1,2,3 Warp Charge Points..

Conflicts with this

To make a Psychic test, you will first need to expend a number of Warp Charge points; declare how many points you are spending and remove them from your pool. Then, roll a number of D6 equal to the number of Warp Charge points you have expended.

For each individual result of 4+, the Psyker has successfully harnessed one Warp Charge point. If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic power’s description, the Psychic test is successful.

In some way?

I am not sure what you mean how it removes my whole argument?

BTW

Yet another interpretation of this is that you are not actually "harnessing" Warp Charge points w/ out rolling successes. So you roll 3 dice for each 4+ beyond the first it would do a D6.

It removes the argument because in 7th edition Flickering Fire is read as

[can be manifested using 1,2,3 Warp Charge Cost]

I really don't see that as a option as there is a definition already of Warp Charge Point, if it used some other wordage maybe but that's just word substitution of another word and doesn't really work as there are two seperate definitions of Warp Charge Point and Warp Charge Cost.

Warp Charge Cost is defined as how many Warp Charge points you need to harness.

Warp Charge Points are actual points that fill a pool that is available to you to use for Warp charge cost.


Warp Charge Points = Money
Warp Charge Cost = Price

You can't substitute one for the other as they do have definitive definitions as to what they are.

Where does it say that Warp Charge Cost is defined as how many Warp Charge points you need to harness?

If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic power’s description, the Psychic test is successful

The number stated in the description is defined as the Warp Charge cost. That number in 6th edition was defined was Warp Charge Points.

If a Psyker does not have any Warp Charge points remaining, he cannot use a psychic power. Some incredibly powerful psychic powers require the expenditure of more than one Warp Charge point - if this is the case' it will be clearly stated how many points must be expended within the power's rules.

6th Edition BRB.

Again, your using terminology across two editions that no longer mean the same thing. Warp Charge Points are now the points in your pool. Warp Charge cost is what the spell requires.

Therefore any old edition powers that have a WC# are defined now as the Warp Charge Cost.

Fragile wrote:
Where does it say that Warp Charge Cost is defined as how many Warp Charge points you need to harness?

If the total number of harnessed Warp Charge points is greater than or equal to the Warp Charge cost stated in the psychic power’s description, the Psychic test is successful

The number stated in the description is defined as the Warp Charge cost. That number in 6th edition was defined was Warp Charge Points.

If a Psyker does not have any Warp Charge points remaining, he cannot use a psychic power. Some incredibly powerful psychic powers require the expenditure of more than one Warp Charge point - if this is the case' it will be clearly stated how many points must be expended within the power's rules.

6th Edition BRB.

Again, your using terminology across two editions that no longer mean the same thing. Warp Charge Points are now the points in your pool. Warp Charge cost is what the spell requires.

Therefore any old edition powers that have a WC# are defined now as the Warp Charge Cost.

Well we can infer the meaning through the usage that you just stated, that Warp Charge Points and Warp Charge Cost, are two seperate definitions is clear or at least it is clear to me that these are two seperate definitons where as the book does not in fact have a glossary of terms, we have to go off the usage of the word and I think that passage regarding Warp Charge Points and Warp Charge cost makes a clear distinction.

If we follow that path of conclusion, that Warp Charge Points != Warp Charge cost in the initial first description for example not the paragraph explaing the spell but where it lists the actual naming of the spell followed by the number then we have to conclude that this is actually what they are referring to as it's Warp Charge cost, if we do not then well nothing works now?

I mean at this point I really think we're just stretching terms and defintions , we all understand the spell really kind of doesn't function right now because of that 1-3, which is broken.

If used as broken as I stated previously it's basically just never going to work ( I think the percentage is a 12%), and we'd have to as players make our own decision to make it start working again. The intention of 7th is not to make it so previous psychic powers are useless.

As I pointed out in my first post and Fragile has detailed terminology has changed from edition so "we can just substitute in the relevant 7th terminology and have the spell work as it is clearly intended". Or we can try to force the 6th Ed terminology to work with 7th Ed definitions in which case either the Power doesn't work at all or you need to roll all 4+ on the exactly 3 dice you ever use to manifest the power...

Yes, I understand what you are saying but it's just not a simple word substitution as Warp Charge Point is different than Warp Charge cost.

The problem you run into when we go to change Warp Charge Points to Warp Charge cost, we then make the spell a bit over powered and have to put our own limitation on it.

If we change it to Manifest using " 1, 2, 3 Warp Charge Cost" and don't change the Expenditure beyond 1 toa maxmimum of 4D6. Then we can have a spelll that if you expend 10 dice it'd be 11D6 ST5 shots.

That's kind of why it needs a limitation or maximum number.

I just think you have to scrap the whole spell and just make it up and treat as a Spell with a Variable level 1 through 3 and each level just adds a D6.

No it works fine if you do the substitution.

"Flickering Fire of Tzeentch canbe manifested using 1, 2 or 3 Warp Charge Cost - declare how much Warp Charge Cost will be used before attempting to manifest the power. Flickering Fire of Tzeentch fires an additional d6 shots for every Warp Charge Cost after the first."

Works fine.

 FlingitNow wrote:
No it works fine if you do the substitution.

"Flickering Fire of Tzeentch canbe manifested using 1, 2 or 3 Warp Charge Cost - declare how much Warp Charge Cost will be used before attempting to manifest the power. Flickering Fire of Tzeentch fires an additional d6 shots for every Warp Charge Cost after the first."

Works fine.

That works as a quick fix and a explanation I see what your saying. It's still changing it but as written but still clearer than stating it's a Level 3 spell, we just have to get rid of the expend quote.

That's actually how I play it now.

Hollismason wrote:

 FlingitNow wrote:
No it works fine if you do the substitution.

"Flickering Fire of Tzeentch canbe manifested using 1, 2 or 3 Warp Charge Cost - declare how much Warp Charge Cost will be used before attempting to manifest the power. Flickering Fire of Tzeentch fires an additional d6 shots for every Warp Charge Cost after the first."

Works fine.

That works as a quick fix and a explanation I see what your saying. It's still changing it but as written but still clearer than stating it's a Level 3 spell, we just have to get rid of the expend quote.

That's actually how I play it now.

Yes this does work fine and its how I've been playing it. As we've discussed it isn't RAW though which is why they need to do an Errata to fix it.

Alright you all broke. The game and can't play till they decide if it indeed needs a FAQ. The great of us will use simple logic and keep playing.

Flickering fire was previously based on the total mastery level of whoever was firing it. Pink horror squads got more shooting attacks with it the larger their squad got, and heralds got more shots the more you invested in their mastery level as well.

Honestly I hope they just FAQ it to limit the total warp charges you can spend on it to the casters mastery level, just like before. So 10 pink horrors can spend 1 charge, mastery 2 heralds can spend 2, mastery 3 guys can spend 3. Keep it mastery 1 so it's actually castable, but otherwise keep it the same.

That seems the most in line with the 6th edition codex and the 7th edition rule set. You spend more points on the mastery levels of your units and flickering fire can do more damage, assuming you spend the units entire warp charge reservoir. Or spend less, you've bought the freedom to do so.

Lungpickle wrote:
Alright you all broke. The game and can't play till they decide if it indeed needs a FAQ. The great of us will use simple logic and keep playing.

We're all playing it , it was mostly just a discussion on how it was RAW played. No one is actually playing it like that.

These discussions are mostly for when people want to make sure and clear on a ruling as sometimes you play at tournaments and other places so it's useful to know how it "actually" works plus you can get a heads up before the event. That's pretty much it.

Yeah, it totally logically RAI and HIWPI makes sense to play it like just any other spell and we do do that.

Just don't think anyone is actually playing it like that.

 Badablack wrote:
Flickering fire was previously based on the total mastery level of whoever was firing it. Pink horror squads got more shooting attacks with it the larger their squad got, and heralds got more shots the more you invested in their mastery level as well.

Honestly I hope they just FAQ it to limit the total warp charges you can spend on it to the casters mastery level, just like before. So 10 pink horrors can spend 1 charge, mastery 2 heralds can spend 2, mastery 3 guys can spend 3. Keep it mastery 1 so it's actually castable, but otherwise keep it the same.

That seems the most in line with the 6th edition codex and the 7th edition rule set. You spend more points on the mastery levels of your units and flickering fire can do more damage, assuming you spend the units entire warp charge reservoir. Or spend less, you've bought the freedom to do so.

That's really not how it worked at all. Horrors are Mastery Level 1 regardless of Unit size. Whilst Lvl3 Heralds could still cast the 2d6 version. It was about how much Warp Charge you used, which is the equivalent of Harnessed Warp Charge now. So you declare the level in Warp Charge cost then roll as many dice as you think you need to get that many harnessed. That is how it should work and how it does work.