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Hollismason wrote:
That when a Independent Character joins a unit, they lose a special ability.

Why is that unreasonable? ICs do lose certain special abilities when they join units.

That a unit type called " Psyker Unit" exists and is not in fact just a reference to a unit that has the Psyker rule.

Uh, no, it's the fact that 'Psyker Unit' is a reference to a unit that has the Psyker rule that causes this whole mess in the first place, because an IC joined to another unit is no longer themselves a unit.

That Psyker units were in fact left out completely in the Unit Types section of the rulebook as well as notation regarding what units are "Psyker units" instead of a unit that simply has the psyker rule.

Psyker units aren't defined in the unit types section because they are defined in the Psychic section.

It breaks the game is a convenient phrase and a argument of semantics about it is not something I want to get into, if it moves us past that then I can give you want a actual definition of what I mean by that phrase as "something that is added to the game that infers a detriment to a unit without a basis in the rules with a concise instruction of that detriment."

Then you're using it wrong.

When people refer to something 'breaking the game' they are talking about something that brings the game to a screeching halt because there is no way within the rules to resolve the situation, or something that is so wildly unbalanced that you just might as well not bother playing any further.

A psyker not being able to cast powers while joined to a unit would not be a situation that breaks the game. It would be a situation in which a psyker would be unable to cast psychic powers.

So your reasonable conlusion is in fact "something that is added to the game that infers a detriment to a unit without a basis in the rules with a concise instruction of that detriment."

Again, the idea that psykers joined to units can't cast powers is not 'my' reasonable conclusion.

I've made clear that rules specifically as written are quiet clear when something is definitively detrimental in fact to going out of the way to make emphasis with bolding or multiple mentions.

Assuming that the rules in the book are actually what the writer intended, and there isn't some important piece of information missing... like, for example, how to determine whether or not a psyker joined to another unit is still considered a psyker unit.

Which is more reasonable?

Psykers joining units lose Psyker abilities when joining squads

Psykers do not lose Psyker abilities when joining squads.

Either is arguably reasonable, particularly in light of some of the other craziness in the 7th ed rules. You've just decided that since one of them is (to you) more reasonable, that it must be the correct interpretation.

There's no indication or even reasonable/rational conclusion to state that a independent character with the Psyker special ability joins a unit that they in fact lose the special ability.

The Psychic Phase does not actually in fact define what "Psychic Unit" is but instead literally just states that Psychic Unit and Psyker always mean a unit with Psyker special rule. There is also no indication of notation anywhere that something is a "psyker unit" within the unit type rules. The phrase psychic unit is a generalized phrase to mean a unit that has a special ability and not a categorization, as if it was a categorization then it would be listed as a category of unit or referenced elsewhere in the rules for a unit type. This is a reasonable conclusion. A irrational conclusion is that there is a Unit Type (Psyker) as we know that there is no documentation that changes specific entries in any codex to state that. It is not listed in the units type portion of the rulebook. So reasonably we can conclude the Psychic Phase does not deal a unit category of Psyker but instead units that have the psyker rule.

It's also not reasonable to assume that by unit it means multiple models as we know that unit can in fact have multiple types. One of which is in fact a independent character unit. The only difference is that independent character units can join other units, they do not lose the designation that they are in fact a independent character, there is no basis in the rules and in fact as previous stated it is normal action they must follow to remain with the squad in regards to targeting, shooting, movement, coherency and assaults.

It's reasonable to say " This means that independent characters are units that join other units but in fact do not lose special abilities unless stated" , as there is no statement to the effect that that is not the case.

It's unreasonable or not rational to state " Independent characters lose special abilities" when you have no reference.

It's reasonable and rationale to state " Independent characters lose this specific ability because that ability specifically states that they do in fact lose it"

This is not just what's just reasonable to just me, it's reasonable to someone who could be considered a reasonable person in regards to a interpretation of the rules.

It is not reasonable to place a detriment on a unit or player without a concise and specific rule which that interpretation does.Whether it's yours or not you are claiming it is a reasonable argument when in fact it is not reasonable at all to place that detriment.

The idea of approach to the rules with as a reasonable person instead of as a rational actor , leads us to less messy rules interpretations.

Hollismason wrote:
There's no indication or even reasonable/rational conclusion to state that a independent character with the Psyker special ability joins a unit that they in fact lose the special ability.

Sure there is: Psychic powers are cast by psyker units. If a psyker joined to another unit counts as a part of that unit for all rules purposes, and a unit is only a psyker unit if all of its members have the psyker rule, then an IC psyker joined to a unit of non-psykers will not be able to cast psychic powers.

The Psychic Phase does not actually in fact define what "Psychic Unit" is but instead literally just states that Psychic Unit and Psyker always mean a unit with Psyker special rule.

So telling you what constitutes a psyker unit is not defining what a psyker unit is?

. A irrational conclusion is that there is a Unit Type (Psyker) as we know that there is no documentation that changes specific entries in any codex to state that. It is not listed in the units type portion of the rulebook. So reasonably we can conclude the Psychic Phase does not deal a unit category of Psyker but instead units that have the psyker rule.

On this, we are in absolute agreement.

It's also not reasonable to assume that by unit it means multiple models as we know that unit can in fact have multiple types. One of which is in fact a independent character unit. The only difference is that independent character units can join other units, they do not lose the designation that they are in fact a independent character, there is no basis in the rules and in fact as previous stated it is normal action they must follow to remain with the squad in regards to targeting, shooting, movement, coherency and assaults.

Independant characters are units in their own right, unless they are joined to another unit, in which case they count as a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

It's reasonable to say " This means that independent characters are units that join other units but in fact do not lose special abilities unless stated" , as there is no statement to the effect that that is not the case.

Reasonable, but not actually necessarily true.

There is no requirement for the rules top specify 'this rule is lost if the IC joins a unit'. While it's good practice for the purposes of clarity, a statement that a given situation will invalidate a specific action is not necessary if the interaction of the rules in question makes that action impossible anyway.

It's unreasonable or not rational to state " Independent characters lose special abilities" when you have no reference.

See above.

It's also worth pointing out that the issue here isn't so much that the IC loses a special ability... he's still a model with the psyker rule. But while joined to another unit, if you follow the interpretation that a unit must all have the psyker rule to be considered a psyker unit then he is not a member of a psyker unit.

He doesn't lose a special rule... he simply is not currently given permission to cast psychic powers.

It's reasonable and rationale to state " Independent characters lose this specific ability because that ability specifically states that they do in fact lose it"

See my comment above about good practice.

Yes, it's a good idea to make your rules as clear as possible. That's kind of the point of this discussion.

The fact that you can argue that rules should be written clearly while also arguing that clarity in this particular rule is uneccessary is a little puzzling, to be honest.

This is not just what's just reasonable to just me, it's reasonable to someone who could be considered a rational actor in regards to a interpretation of the rules.

It is not reasonable to place a detriment on a unit or player without a concise and specific rule which that interpretation does.Whether it's yours or not you are claiming it is a reasonable argument when in fact it is not reasonable at all to place that detriment.

The idea of approach to the rules with a reasons and fairness by a Rational Actor, leads us to less messy rules interpretations.

The other thing that leads to less messy rules interpretations is actually sticking to the written rules when arguing about the actual rules.

Your interpretation is a reasonable house rule. But it requires the additon of rules that don't currently exist, and a guess as to what the writer actually intended... so ultimately whether or not it's the most reasonable way to play it is going to come down to individual opinion.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
There's no indication or even reasonable/rational conclusion to state that a independent character with the Psyker special ability joins a unit that they in fact lose the special ability.

Sure there is: Psychic powers are cast by psyker units. If a psyker joined to another unit counts as a part of that unit for all rules purposes, and a unit is only a psyker unit if all of its members have the psyker rule, then an IC psyker joined to a unit of non-psykers will not be able to cast psychic powers.

The Psychic Phase does not actually in fact define what "Psychic Unit" is but instead literally just states that Psychic Unit and Psyker always mean a unit with Psyker special rule.

So telling you what constitutes a psyker unit is not defining what a psyker unit is?

. A irrational conclusion is that there is a Unit Type (Psyker) as we know that there is no documentation that changes specific entries in any codex to state that. It is not listed in the units type portion of the rulebook. So reasonably we can conclude the Psychic Phase does not deal a unit category of Psyker but instead units that have the psyker rule.

On this, we are in absolute agreement.

It's also not reasonable to assume that by unit it means multiple models as we know that unit can in fact have multiple types. One of which is in fact a independent character unit. The only difference is that independent character units can join other units, they do not lose the designation that they are in fact a independent character, there is no basis in the rules and in fact as previous stated it is normal action they must follow to remain with the squad in regards to targeting, shooting, movement, coherency and assaults.

Independant characters are units in their own right, unless they are joined to another unit, in which case they count as a part of that unit for all rules purposes.

It's reasonable to say " This means that independent characters are units that join other units but in fact do not lose special abilities unless stated" , as there is no statement to the effect that that is not the case.

Reasonable, but not actually necessarily true.

There is no requirement for the rules top specify 'this rule is lost if the IC joins a unit'. While it's good practice for the purposes of clarity, a statement that a given situation will invalidate a specific action is not necessary if the interaction of the rules in question makes that action impossible anyway.

It's unreasonable or not rational to state " Independent characters lose special abilities" when you have no reference.

See above.

It's also worth pointing out that the issue here isn't so much that the IC loses a special ability... he's still a model with the psyker rule. But while joined to another unit, if you follow the interpretation that a unit must all have the psyker rule to be considered a psyker unit then he is not a member of a psyker unit.

He doesn't lose a special rule... he simply is not currently given permission to cast psychic powers.

It's reasonable and rationale to state " Independent characters lose this specific ability because that ability specifically states that they do in fact lose it"

See my comment above about good practice.

Yes, it's a good idea to make your rules as clear as possible. That's kind of the point of this discussion.

The fact that you can argue that rules should be written clearly while also arguing that clarity in this particular rule is uneccessary is a little puzzling, to be honest.

This is not just what's just reasonable to just me, it's reasonable to someone who could be considered a rational actor in regards to a interpretation of the rules.

It is not reasonable to place a detriment on a unit or player without a concise and specific rule which that interpretation does.Whether it's yours or not you are claiming it is a reasonable argument when in fact it is not reasonable at all to place that detriment.

The idea of approach to the rules with a reasons and fairness by a Rational Actor, leads us to less messy rules interpretations.

The other thing that leads to less messy rules interpretations is actually sticking to the written rules when arguing about the actual rules.

Your interpretation is a reasonable house rule. But it requires the additon of rules that don't currently exist, and a guess as to what the writer actually intended... so ultimately whether or not it's the most reasonable way to play it is going to come down to individual opinion.

The first part to this that only "psyker units" can cast spells is actually not true. The only thing that can cast psychic spells are units that have the Pskyer ... special rule. Units though is not just defined though by a multitude of models but in fact can in fact mean independent character, as independent characters do not lose their independent character status or "unit type" when they join a squad. It's in fact not a Psyhic unit that joins another unit ,but is a unit infantry( character) that has the independent character special rule that allows it to in fact join a squad.

There's a distinction to be made and one you have to make, because he is still unit type (indepedent character) and has the special ability of Psyker.

I think that may be where you are getting hung up on.


Another specific point that I'd like to point out to your argument is the use of the word "normal". That's a important distinction as the rules actually make a clear distinction between "advanced and basic" rules. The only rules a indepedent character has to follow is actually, movement, coherency, assaulting, and shooting in order to be considered part of a unit. That's a pretty clear distinction but it actually does not include Psychic Powers.

I think this is interesting distinction by the way to further illustrate that a psyker can actually fire Witchfire in his shooting phase and his unit can in fact shoot in the shooting phase, he can even target a different unit. Which makes it clear at least for witchfires that a psyker in a unit can in fact manifest witchfire.


He doesn't need explicit permission to cast Psychic powers because he already has that in his rules and special abilities. It also does not say he cannot cast psychic powers, now generally the rules are a mix of permissive and restrictive. I don't actually subscribe to that specific idea that there is a such thing as the rules being a "permissive ruleset" I'm not sure if you do. I don't though as its evident that it's a restrictive and permissive ruleset. That may be the case and you may argue he needs to permission to cast use that special ability. However, if you believe that that a Independent character needs special dispensation to use a special ability, you have to universally apply this to other special rules. What's good for the goose.

Here's why I find this to be a unreasonable conclusion though and it's a evidently clear one, in order for that statement to be true there are some questions and affirmations. Does a independent character lose his unit type or become the unit type of the unit he is with? And where is that in the rules?

As we know that there is no such thing as Unit Type : XXXX ( Psyker), we know that in fact Psyker is a special rule that is applied to XXXX.

We also know that his unit type does not change when he is within a squad.


I'm not arguing that the rules could not be more clearly written, I specifically just don't think that this rule is unclear.

Correction: there's no unit type (Independent Character).
Unit Type is a poorly named thing. It's model based, not unit based. Like the rest of a model's characteristic profile.

Hollismason wrote:
The first part to this that only "psyker units" can cast spells is actually not true. The only thing that can cast psychic spells are units that have the Pskyer ... special rule.

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence wrote:
1: Select Psyker and Psychic Power
Unless you have 0 Warp Charge point remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

Select Psyker and Psychic Power wrote:
To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units...

So, no, psychic powers are manifested by your Psyker units. Units that have the psyker rule are psyker units.

There is no permission in the rules to attempt to manifest a power with anything that is not a psyker unit.

Units though is not just defined though by a multitude of models but in fact can in fact mean independent character, as independent characters do not lose their independent character status or "unit type" when they join a squad. It's in fact not a Psyhic unit that joins another unit ,but is a unit infantry( character) that has the independent character special rule that allows it to in fact join a squad.

There's a distinction to be made and one you have to make, because he is still unit type (indepedent character) and has the special ability of Psyker.

I think that may be where you are getting hung up on.

'Independant Character' is not a unit type.

You are correct that ICs do not lose their IC status when they join another unit. They do, however, count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. They are no longer a single-model unit... They are a part of the unit they have joined, until they leave it.

Another specific point that I'd like to point out to your argument is the use of the word "normal". That's a important distinction as the rules actually make a clear distinction between "advanced and basic" rules. The only rules a indepedent character has to follow is actually, movement, coherency, assaulting, and shooting in order to be considered part of a unit. That's a pretty clear distinction but it actually does not include Psychic Powers.

Again, the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So any rule that refers to units will include the IC and the unit combined, because they are a single unit.

I think this is interesting distinction by the way to further illustrate that a psyker can actually fire Witchfire in his shooting phase and his unit can in fact shoot in the shooting phase, he can even target a different unit. Which makes it clear at least for witchfires that a psyker in a unit can in fact manifest witchfire.

Sure. So long as the unit is a psyker unit, because otherwise there is no way for them to manifest a power.

He doesn't need explicit permission to cast Psychic powers because he already has that in his rules and special abilities. It also does not say he cannot cast psychic powers, now generally the rules are a mix of permissive and restrictive. I don't actually subscribe to that specific idea that there is a such thing as the rules being a "permissive ruleset" I'm not sure if you do. I don't though as its evident that it's a restrictive and permissive ruleset. That may be the case and you may argue he needs to permission to cast use that special ability. However, if you believe that that a Independent character needs special dispensation to use a special ability, you have to universally apply this to other special rules. What's good for the goose.

You're completely missing the point here, because of your misunderstanding at the start about who manifests powers.

Does a independent character lose his unit type or become the unit type of the unit he is with? And where is that in the rules?

No, he does not.

As we know that there is no such thing as Unit Type : XXXX ( Psyker), we know that in fact Psyker is a special rule that is applied to XXXX.

Correct.

We also know that his unit type does not change when he is within a squad.

Correct.

And none of that changes the fact that when it comes time to manifest a psychic power, you choose one of your psyker units. If the unit that includes the IC is not a psyker unit, they have no permission to manifest a psychic power, nor is there anything in the rules to indicate that the IC should be treated as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
The first part to this that only "psyker units" can cast spells is actually not true. The only thing that can cast psychic spells are units that have the Pskyer ... special rule.

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence wrote:
1: Select Psyker and Psychic Power
Unless you have 0 Warp Charge point remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

Select Psyker and Psychic Power wrote:
To manifest a psychic power, you will first need to select one of your Psyker units...

So, no, psychic powers are manifested by your Psyker units. Units that have the psyker rule are psyker units.

There is no permission in the rules to attempt to manifest a power with anything that is not a psyker unit.

Units though is not just defined though by a multitude of models but in fact can in fact mean independent character, as independent characters do not lose their independent character status or "unit type" when they join a squad. It's in fact not a Psyhic unit that joins another unit ,but is a unit infantry( character) that has the independent character special rule that allows it to in fact join a squad.

There's a distinction to be made and one you have to make, because he is still unit type (indepedent character) and has the special ability of Psyker.

I think that may be where you are getting hung up on.

'Independant Character' is not a unit type.

You are correct that ICs do not lose their IC status when they join another unit. They do, however, count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes. They are no longer a single-model unit... They are a part of the unit they have joined, until they leave it.

Another specific point that I'd like to point out to your argument is the use of the word "normal". That's a important distinction as the rules actually make a clear distinction between "advanced and basic" rules. The only rules a indepedent character has to follow is actually, movement, coherency, assaulting, and shooting in order to be considered part of a unit. That's a pretty clear distinction but it actually does not include Psychic Powers.

Again, the IC is a part of the unit for all rules purposes.

So any rule that refers to units will include the IC and the unit combined, because they are a single unit.

I think this is interesting distinction by the way to further illustrate that a psyker can actually fire Witchfire in his shooting phase and his unit can in fact shoot in the shooting phase, he can even target a different unit. Which makes it clear at least for witchfires that a psyker in a unit can in fact manifest witchfire.

Sure. So long as the unit is a psyker unit, because otherwise there is no way for them to manifest a power.

He doesn't need explicit permission to cast Psychic powers because he already has that in his rules and special abilities. It also does not say he cannot cast psychic powers, now generally the rules are a mix of permissive and restrictive. I don't actually subscribe to that specific idea that there is a such thing as the rules being a "permissive ruleset" I'm not sure if you do. I don't though as its evident that it's a restrictive and permissive ruleset. That may be the case and you may argue he needs to permission to cast use that special ability. However, if you believe that that a Independent character needs special dispensation to use a special ability, you have to universally apply this to other special rules. What's good for the goose.

You're completely missing the point here, because of your misunderstanding at the start about who manifests powers.

Does a independent character lose his unit type or become the unit type of the unit he is with? And where is that in the rules?

No, he does not.

As we know that there is no such thing as Unit Type : XXXX ( Psyker), we know that in fact Psyker is a special rule that is applied to XXXX.

Correct.

We also know that his unit type does not change when he is within a squad.

Correct.

And none of that changes the fact that when it comes time to manifest a psychic power, you choose one of your psyker units. If the unit that includes the IC is not a psyker unit, they have no permission to manifest a psychic power, nor is there anything in the rules to indicate that the IC should be treated as a separate unit for the purposes of resolving psychic powers.

Your taking the rules out of context and using one specific statement that uses the word psychic unit to justify this it's a false dichotomy and it's just not true because we know that Psyker and Psychic unit refer to any unit or model that has the Pskyer .... special rule. Those terms are interchangeable. There is no such things a unit called " psychic unit". There are units that have Psychic Special Rule, a rule that applies to any model or unit that has that special ability. Psychic unit is just a general term used with in the rules themselves to refer to this. There is no difference in the rules between Psyker, Psychic unit , or Models that have the Psyker special Ability. We know that there are multiple different types of unit and those can have the Psyker special ability, a rule that is not lost when a unit is joined by another unit, if you claim this then a independent character loses all special abilities including being a independent character when joining a squad and cannot use them and can furthermore never leave the unit. Why? Because your claim of for all rules purposes precludes the independent character from using a special ability. Something that is not lost when joining another unit.



3. Psychic phase. In the Psychic phase, models known as Psykers can use strange mental powers, and other Warp-born effects may manifest. See the psychic rules for more details of how to do this.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, ......



You also seem to ignore this statement

Manifesting psychic powers can be summarised in five steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.

1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units

This is the part that is your justification and literally uses the terms Psyker and Psychic unit interchangably in the same sentence..

A Psyker must pass a Psychic test to see if he can harness the power of the Warp

......

......

Assume this is where I posted quotations of the word usage of Psyker here as I don't think copy/pasting the whole rule section is appropriate, from here on out though it is of note that the term Psyker and not Psychic unit is used pretty much exclusively.

Now in terms of whether they can use a special rule.. which while it does state for all rules purposes a independent character is part of a unit there is no exclusion in this section saying how to deal with special abilities this is a different section. If you use that out of context, then you can also apply it out of context to meaning any rule. Even rules that don't apply and won't apply to a independent character but we know that is not true as there is further elaboration on special abilities and units joined by Independent character.

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit.

A clear distinction that special abilities of units and of independent characters are treated separately unless otherwise noted.

And the psychic rule itself

Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker.

A interesting of note is that twice during the rules it uses the term model and not unit. There is no difference in phrasing between psyker and psyker unit, they from a terminology stand point are the same thing. Now in regards to independent characters, no there is in fact no unit type any more called this it is infantry ( character ). However we both agree and know that units do not confer their unit type to a independent character that joins.

It also states for all rules purposes, but we know that this is not completely true as they must remain seperate as specific abilities do not confer on each other.

Here's the thing your using something out of context. That's not a reasonable argument, taking something out of context of the whole isn't how to make a reasoned argument which goes back to my earlier assertion that we have to as readers approach the rules as a reasonable person. A specific instruction of a reasonable person with in legal terms is to consider all evidence before them before they reach their conclusion.

No, it really is all rules purposes. The abilities that don't confer don't because they're model based, not unit based.

Which makes that statement not a entirely true statement as we know specifically certain rules special abilities are not conferred between them unless stated. Also paraphasing isn't that great on it, the actually statement is " Though he still follows the rules for characters".

I don't actually know what point you're trying to make here unless its a reaffirmation of what I stated ? Psyker is a special ability that applies to a model.

While I am not willing to spend the time and effort to respond in detail, I don't think it is necessary. It seems to me that rigeld2 and Insaniak have explained it pretty well.

Hollismason wrote:
Your taking the rules out of context and using one specific statement that uses the word psychic unit to justify this it's a false dichotomy and it's just not true because we know that Psyker and Psychic unit refer to any unit or model that has the Pskyer .... special rule.

Referring to the rule that tells you who can cast a psychic power in order to determine who can cast a psychic power is not taking a rule out of context.

Both of the rules I quoted specifically state that you choose a psyker unit.

Those terms are interchangeable.

No, they aren't. But it wouldn't matter if they were, because both of those terms refer to units.

The rules tell us that when they refer to a 'psyker' or a 'psyker unit' then they mean a unit with the psyker, psychic pilot or Brotherhood rule.

So anytime you see the word 'psyker' in the rules, it is referring to a unit, not to an individual model.

There is no such things a unit called " psychic unit".

That's correct.

There is, however, a thing called a 'psyker unit'... and it's what a unit has to be in order to cast psychic powers.

if you claim this then a independent character loses all special abilities including being a independent character when joining a squad and cannot use them and can furthermore never leave the unit.[/u] Why? Because your claim of for all rules purposes precludes the independent character from using a special ability. Something that is not lost when joining another unit.

Being a part of the unit for all rules purposes doesn't mean that he loses any rules of his own. It simply means that he functions as a part of the unit.

Any rule that applies specifically to the IC will still apply to him. He still has the psyker rule.

The problem is simply that the rest of the unit he is now a part of does not have the psyker rule. So if you follow the interpretation that a unit's members must all have the psyker rule in order to be considered a psyker unit then the unit that the IC is a part of is not a psyker unit, and so can not cast psychic powers.

That's really all there is to this. The IC isn't losing a rule. He's losing the ability to use that rule because his unit composition has changed. He is no longer a single model unit with the psyker rule (which would make him a psyker unit). He is now a single member of a unit that is not a psyker unit.

You also seem to ignore this statement

Manifesting psychic powers can be summarised in five steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.

1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units

This is the part that is your justification and literally uses the terms Psyker and Psychic unit interchangably in the same sentence..

No, it doesn't.

It has a heading that tells you what you are doing. And then in a separate sentence it tells you how to do that thing.

And the way you do that thing is that you select a psyker unit.

It also states for all rules purposes, but we know that this is not completely true as they must remain seperate as specific abilities do not confer on each other.

That doesn't require them to remain separate.

Quite a lot of units have things that apply to specific models. Like any unit with mixed weaponry, for example... A model can be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, but still roll to wound on a different value to the rest of the unit because its weapon has a different strength.

What you still seem to be overlooking is that it's precisely because the IC's special rule doesn't confer to the unit that you have this problem. If the psyker rule was conferred to the unit the IC had joined, they would be a psyker unit. It doesn't, and so they are not.

The rules require you to select a psyker unit to cast a psychic power. The IC joined to another unit is not himself a unit. He's not a single model unit. He's not a blue unit. He's not an angry unit. He's not a unit with big, sharp, pointy teeth. And he's not a psyker unit.

Because he's no longer a unit. He's a part of a unit.

Hollismason wrote:
Which makes that statement not a entirely true statement as we know specifically certain rules special abilities are not conferred between them unless stated. Also paraphasing isn't that great on it, the actually statement is " Though he still follows the rules for characters".

I don't actually know what point you're trying to make here unless its a reaffirmation of what I stated ? Psyker is a special ability that applies to a model.

It is entirely true. Nothing you've said is an exception from that statement so unless you can show one, it's entirely true.

My point is that you're making a lot of arguments based on statements hat are factually incorrect.

rigeld2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Which makes that statement not a entirely true statement as we know specifically certain rules special abilities are not conferred between them unless stated. Also paraphasing isn't that great on it, the actually statement is " Though he still follows the rules for characters".

I don't actually know what point you're trying to make here unless its a reaffirmation of what I stated ? Psyker is a special ability that applies to a model.

It is entirely true. Nothing you've said is an exception from that statement so unless you can show one, it's entirely true.

My point is that you're making a lot of arguments based on statements hat are factually incorrect.

Here's rules quote's been super busy lately.
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

He is still follows the rules for characters
This is Important
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here. If you’re new to the game, you can cheerfully ignore this section until you’ve got the basic rules under your belt – you can always dip back in as and when you need to.

Why is this important?
CHARACTER TYPES
CHARACTER AND SHOOTING
..........
Characters and Assault
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit


Here's the whole special ability thing..

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.


That's the special rules thing, no where does it state he is unable to use his special rules they just do not apply to the other members of the squad that is the only instance and why it is stated that he is still considered a character unit with in that squad.

Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker..

This in fact makes it true that models have the Psyker rule and is not by a "unit" basis. The reason is that units do not have special abilities, models do. For Example ; (jump unit) has special abilities those do not confer to a independent character unless he also has that special ability through wargear etc.. now on to what that sentence actually means and why it specifically means that not all units of a squad need to the Psyker special ability and you can in fact cast Psychic powers etc.. et al.

insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Your taking the rules out of context and using one specific statement that uses the word psychic unit to justify this it's a false dichotomy and it's just not true because we know that Psyker and Psychic unit refer to any unit or model that has the Pskyer .... special rule.

Referring to the rule that tells you who can cast a psychic power in order to determine who can cast a psychic power is not taking a rule out of context.

Both of the rules I quoted specifically state that you choose a psyker unit.

Those terms are interchangeable.

No, they aren't. But it wouldn't matter if they were, because both of those terms refer to units.

The rules tell us that when they refer to a 'psyker' or a 'psyker unit' then they mean a unit with the psyker, psychic pilot or Brotherhood rule.

So anytime you see the word 'psyker' in the rules, it is referring to a unit, not to an individual model.

There is no such things a unit called " psychic unit".

That's correct.

There is, however, a thing called a 'psyker unit'... and it's what a unit has to be in order to cast psychic powers.

if you claim this then a independent character loses all special abilities including being a independent character when joining a squad and cannot use them and can furthermore never leave the unit.[/u] Why? Because your claim of for all rules purposes precludes the independent character from using a special ability. Something that is not lost when joining another unit.

Being a part of the unit for all rules purposes doesn't mean that he loses any rules of his own. It simply means that he functions as a part of the unit.

Any rule that applies specifically to the IC will still apply to him. He still has the psyker rule.

The problem is simply that the rest of the unit he is now a part of does not have the psyker rule. So if you follow the interpretation that a unit's members must all have the psyker rule in order to be considered a psyker unit then the unit that the IC is a part of is not a psyker unit, and so can not cast psychic powers.

That's really all there is to this. The IC isn't losing a rule. He's losing the ability to use that rule because his unit composition has changed. He is no longer a single model unit with the psyker rule (which would make him a psyker unit). He is now a single member of a unit that is not a psyker unit.

You also seem to ignore this statement

Manifesting psychic powers can be summarised in five steps, as described below. Each step is explained in greater detail later in this section.

1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units

This is the part that is your justification and literally uses the terms Psyker and Psychic unit interchangably in the same sentence..

No, it doesn't.

It has a heading that tells you what you are doing. And then in a separate sentence it tells you how to do that thing.

And the way you do that thing is that you select a psyker unit.

It also states for all rules purposes, but we know that this is not completely true as they must remain seperate as specific abilities do not confer on each other.

That doesn't require them to remain separate.

Quite a lot of units have things that apply to specific models. Like any unit with mixed weaponry, for example... A model can be a part of the unit for all rules purposes, but still roll to wound on a different value to the rest of the unit because its weapon has a different strength.

What you still seem to be overlooking is that it's precisely because the IC's special rule doesn't confer to the unit that you have this problem. If the psyker rule was conferred to the unit the IC had joined, they would be a psyker unit. It doesn't, and so they are not.

The rules require you to select a psyker unit to cast a psychic power. The IC joined to another unit is not himself a unit. He's not a single model unit. He's not a blue unit. He's not an angry unit. He's not a unit with big, sharp, pointy teeth. And he's not a psyker unit.

Because he's no longer a unit. He's a part of a unit.

Okay so here's your logic

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

You're logic is thus ( Feel free to correct)
1. The underline portion refers to units that have the psyker special rule.
2. If a independent character joins another unit he cannot use his powers as you nominate a "unit" and since the "unit" does not have the Psyker special rule it cannot be used.

This was going to be super long but I think this pretty much ends the argument?

Basic rules apply to all the models in the game, unless stated otherwise. They include the rules for movement, shooting and close combat as well as the rules for morale. These are all the rules you’ll need for infantry models...............Where advanced rules apply to a specific model, they always override any contradicting basic rules. For example, the basic rules state that a model must take a Morale check under certain situations.

Designer’s Note
The rules presented in this section assume that players are already familiar with rules and concepts described in other phases of Warhammer 40,000 – particularly the Shooting phase. If this is the first time you are reading this book, don’t worry, just come back and revisit the Psychic Phase section again once you are familiar with the rest of the core game rules.

I'd say Psychic Phase is a advanced rule and since we've found a contradiction it overrides it? If that's not satisfactory and you do not consider it a contradiction I can continue but also please refer to the quotations I've taken out for Rigel in regards to "Normal" rules, special abilities etc...

In other news I think I am addicted to Tostadas.

Hollismason wrote:
Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker..

This in fact makes it true that models have the Psyker rule and is not by a "unit" basis.

Yes, that's a part of the problem.

Individual models have the psyker rule.

However, when we get to the section that deals with actually casting psychic powers, the rules deal entirely with psyker units, as per the rules I quoted previously.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker..

This in fact makes it true that models have the Psyker rule and is not by a "unit" basis.

Yes, that's a part of the problem.

Individual models have the psyker rule.

However, when we get to the section that deals with actually casting psychic powers, the rules deal entirely with psyker units, as per the rules I quoted previously.

See rest of my post, but I can actually quote the rules if you wish. Sorry just finished that last post up.

Hollismason wrote:
Okay so here's your logic

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

You're logic is thus ( Feel free to correct)
1. The underline portion refers to units that have the psyker special rule.
2. If a independent character joins another unit he cannot use his powers as you nominate a "unit" and since the "unit" does not have the Psyker special rule it cannot be used.

If you go by the interpretation that the entire unit needs to have the psyker rule in order to be considered a unit with the psyker rule, yes.

I'd say Psychic Phase is a advanced rule and since we've found a contradiction it overrides it?

There is no contradiction.

Your quotes about normal and special rules are irrelevant. The psychic phase rules require you to select a unit to cast a power. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that a single model within the unit can cast a psychic power, even if that single model has the psyker special rule... because the rules for casting powers never, ever refer to individual models with the rule.

The IC has the psyker rule... if you go by the interpretation that the entire unit needs the psyker rule in order to be considered a psyker unit, then he needs to be in a unit that only consists of models with the psyker rule in order to be able to cast psychic powers. Because powers are cast by units, not models.

 insaniak wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Okay so here's your logic

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

You're logic is thus ( Feel free to correct)
1. The underline portion refers to units that have the psyker special rule.
2. If a independent character joins another unit he cannot use his powers as you nominate a "unit" and since the "unit" does not have the Psyker special rule it cannot be used.

If you go by the interpretation that the entire unit needs to have the psyker rule in order to be considered a unit with the psyker rule, yes.

I'd say Psychic Phase is a advanced rule and since we've found a contradiction it overrides it?

There is no contradiction.

Your quotes about normal and special rules are irrelevant. The psychic phase rules require you to select a unit to cast a power. There is absolutely nothing to indicate that a single model within the unit can cast a psychic power, even if that single model has the psyker special rule... because the rules for casting powers never, ever refer to individual models with the rule.

The IC has the psyker rule... if you go by the interpretation that the entire unit needs the psyker rule in order to be considered a psyker unit, then he needs to be in a unit that only consists of models with the psyker rule in order to be able to cast psychic powers. Because powers are cast by units, not models.

You seem to be ignoring the " characters follow normal rules" portion of that. Also, if you actually want me to quote the rules here.

Also, you are implying that a psyker stops being a unit when he becomes part of another unit which isn't in the rules. He follows the "rules for that unit", but there are obvious exceptions to this because he does not gain special rules nor does he confer special rules unless stated. He is also still considered a character which only states that he follows the "normal " rules.

No where does it state that the independent character becomes the unit type of the unit he joins. He is still "unit type : infantry (character)". He does not lose that.


Also only models can have the Psyker rule. I understand exactly what you are saying but it's just a false conclusion to state that a Independent character loses it's status as a unit when it joins another unit when it states that it still retains it's abilities as a character, which includes following only the normal rules.

It's just a irrational interpretation and has no rules basis, as we know that models with special abilities can in fact use them there's no such restriction evident.

If anything that interpretation is just irrational, which is why it's a false dichotomy. That a independent character loses it's units type when joining a squad.

Hollismason wrote:
You seem to be ignoring the " characters follow normal rules" portion of that.

Yes, I am. Because it's irrelevant. There are no rules for casting psychic powers that are specific to characters.

Also, you are implying that a psyker stops being a unit when he becomes part of another unit which isn't in the rules. He follows the "rules for that unit", but there are obvious exceptions to this because he does not gain special rules nor does he confer special rules unless stated. He is also still considered a character which only states that he follows the "normal " rules.

He's still a character. He's no longer a unit of one model, because he is now a part of the unit he has joined for all rules purposes.

No where does it state that the independent character becomes the unit type of the unit he joins.

Nowhere have I argued that this is the case.

He is still "unit type : infantry (character)". He does not lose that.

Which has no impact on the process for casting psychic powers.

Also only models can have the Psyker rule. I understand exactly what you are saying but it's just a false conclusion to state that a Independent character loses it's status as a unit when it joins another unit when it states that it still retains it's abilities as a character, which includes following only the normal rules.

If you are still considering the IC to be a unit of one model, how is he being counted as a part of the unit he has joined for all rules purposes?

Note also that if you consider the IC to still be a unit of one model while joined to another unit, the unit with IC joined would be unable to enbark into a transport vehicle (as there would then be two units on board, and the transport rules only allow 1). Any enemy that wishes to charge the unit would have to declare a disordered charge if they are going to contact the IC (as he is a member of two different units) and the first model would not be able to move into contact with the IC as they are forbidden from moving into base contact with anything other than the single unit that the initial charge is declared against. Shooting, movement, and any other rules that require to to resolve a single unit at a time would likewise suddenly run into all sorts of problems, as anything involving the IC is involving two different units.


To put it simply - If you count the joined IC as still a unit in his own right, the game breaks.

If anything that interpretation is just irrational, which is why it's a false dichotomy. That a independent character loses it's units type when joining a squad.

How many times do I need to repeat the fact that the IC doesn't lose its unit type when joining a squad?

That's simply not the issue.

The issue is very, very simple: Psychic Powers are cast by psyker units. If a unit isn't a psyker unit, it can't cast psychic powers.

That's it. The difference between special and normal rules has nothing to do with it. Unit types have nothing to do with it. The character rules have nothing to do with it.

An IC joined to another unit is a single unit. That single unit, by the rules as they currently stand, needs to be a psyker unit in order for that unit to cast psychic powers.


There are no rules that would allow individual models within that unit to cast psychic powers.

Hollismason wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Which makes that statement not a entirely true statement as we know specifically certain rules special abilities are not conferred between them unless stated. Also paraphasing isn't that great on it, the actually statement is " Though he still follows the rules for characters".

I don't actually know what point you're trying to make here unless its a reaffirmation of what I stated ? Psyker is a special ability that applies to a model.

It is entirely true. Nothing you've said is an exception from that statement so unless you can show one, it's entirely true.

My point is that you're making a lot of arguments based on statements hat are factually incorrect.

Here's rules quote's been super busy lately.
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

He is still follows the rules for characters
This is Important
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here. If you’re new to the game, you can cheerfully ignore this section until you’ve got the basic rules under your belt – you can always dip back in as and when you need to.

Why is this important?
CHARACTER TYPES
CHARACTER AND SHOOTING
..........
Characters and Assault
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit


Here's the whole special ability thing..

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.


That's the special rules thing, no where does it state he is unable to use his special rules they just do not apply to the other members of the squad that is the only instance and why it is stated that he is still considered a character unit with in that squad.

Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker..

This in fact makes it true that models have the Psyker rule and is not by a "unit" basis. The reason is that units do not have special abilities, models do. For Example ; (jump unit) has special abilities those do not confer to a independent character unless he also has that special ability through wargear etc.. now on to what that sentence actually means and why it specifically means that not all units of a squad need to the Psyker special ability and you can in fact cast Psychic powers etc.. et al.

Here's a gold star for quoting rules. Too bad they don't say what you've asserted.
A). You quoted no rule that says an IC is only a member of the unit it joins for some rules purposes. The IC rules say all rules purposes, you've asserted otherwise, prove your assertion.
B). Cite the rule allowing you to select a Psyker model to cast a power. As far as I can tell its units with the Psyker rule that add warp charges, etc. When an IC joins a hint, he's not a unit in and of himself anymore. Since the unit he joined does not have the Psyker rule, please prove - using rules and not assumptions as I've underlined above - you can select something other than a Psyker unit.

rigeld2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:

rigeld2 wrote:

Hollismason wrote:
Which makes that statement not a entirely true statement as we know specifically certain rules special abilities are not conferred between them unless stated. Also paraphasing isn't that great on it, the actually statement is " Though he still follows the rules for characters".

I don't actually know what point you're trying to make here unless its a reaffirmation of what I stated ? Psyker is a special ability that applies to a model.

It is entirely true. Nothing you've said is an exception from that statement so unless you can show one, it's entirely true.

My point is that you're making a lot of arguments based on statements hat are factually incorrect.

Here's rules quote's been super busy lately.
While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

He is still follows the rules for characters
This is Important
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here. If you’re new to the game, you can cheerfully ignore this section until you’ve got the basic rules under your belt – you can always dip back in as and when you need to.

Why is this important?
CHARACTER TYPES
CHARACTER AND SHOOTING
..........
Characters and Assault
Remember, a character that has joined a unit follows all the normal rules for being part of a unit


Here's the whole special ability thing..

Special Rules
When an Independent Character joins a unit, it might have different special rules from those of the unit. Unless specified in the rule itself (as in the Stubborn special rule), the unit’s special rules are not conferred upon the Independent Character, and the Independent Character’s special rules are not conferred upon the unit. Special rules that are conferred to the unit only apply for as long as the Independent Character is with them.


That's the special rules thing, no where does it state he is unable to use his special rules they just do not apply to the other members of the squad that is the only instance and why it is stated that he is still considered a character unit with in that squad.

Psyker
Psykers are battlefield mystics who harness the power of the Warp.
A model with this special rule is a Psyker..

This in fact makes it true that models have the Psyker rule and is not by a "unit" basis. The reason is that units do not have special abilities, models do. For Example ; (jump unit) has special abilities those do not confer to a independent character unless he also has that special ability through wargear etc.. now on to what that sentence actually means and why it specifically means that not all units of a squad need to the Psyker special ability and you can in fact cast Psychic powers etc.. et al.

Here's a gold star for quoting rules. Too bad they don't say what you've asserted.
A). You quoted no rule that says an IC is only a member of the unit it joins for some rules purposes. The IC rules say all rules purposes, you've asserted otherwise, prove your assertion.
B). Cite the rule allowing you to select a Psyker model to cast a power. As far as I can tell its units with the Psyker rule that add warp charges, etc. When an IC joins a hint, he's not a unit in and of himself anymore. Since the unit he joined does not have the Psyker rule, please prove - using rules and not assumptions as I've underlined above - you can select something other than a Psyker unit.

I just did that's literally the second thing I posted? He doesn't lose his status as a unit , all models are units per the rules. He still remains a character, which is a unit type. He can cast psychic powers as you can select him. I dunno how to draw it out any further.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

This completely disregards that statement that characters counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes

This is Important
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here. If you’re new to the game, you can cheerfully ignore this section until you’ve got the basic rules under your belt – you can always dip back in as and when you need to.

This is Important
Special rules are so important that many of the other rules in this tome (particularly those for weapons and for troop types) are tied into the special rules given here. If you’re new to the game, you can cheerfully ignore this section until you’ve got the basic rules under your belt – you can always dip back in as and when you need to.

Please read what I actually wrote thanks. Also, I've posted these rules multiple times.

He still remains a (character) which is a unit type. It's not a special ability. It's also not "units" it's "unit" with the Psyker special rule.

He is a (character) unit within a unit? It's not like super complicated he has to follow all normal rules. Pyker abilites are Specia.

By your assertion
Please quote the exact rule where my independent character that according to you follows all rules does not in fact become calvary when he joins a calvary unit?


This goes back to my quotes regarding approaching the rules rationally and fairly by the way as by your interpretation you kind eliminate/punish/denigrate certain units in the game that can upgrade characters or have Psykers attached to them.

I'd also like to refer to this distinction that the rules are a "all or nothing" phrase which keeps being insisted on, you select models to fire by selecting a unit and then models within that unit fires. You have to fire all those models before moving on but they do not all have to fire.

It I select a unit that has a model that has a Psyker special ability I've still selected a unit with the Psyker Special Rule because all models make up the unit which is where I think your logics getting caught up in. If that model is part of that unit then that unit has a model that can be selected to use the Psychic Ability it has. The rule that you are insisting on does not exist which is that all models within a unit must have the psychic ability which it doesn't state, it just states unit with the psychic ability. One of those models has the psychic ability which is part of that unit.

It's just kind of faulty logic.

So I mean I guess I can break it down for you further and do a sentence tree but those are two perfectly good examples on why a unit with a psychic ability means a model with psychic ability that is part of that unit. It's the same thing.


Here's one last example that I am going to draw.


@@@@
@@@@
@@@@
==================
@@@@
@@@@
@@@@

Please select a group with an orange.
Please select a group with all oranges

What the rules actually state :

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.






I think this is important as well since it is literally in the same instruction to select a psyker and psychic power which actually has a period at the end of it, which is grammatically the end of that sentence. So you can argue either way that psyker and psychic unit are actually synonomous. The first step in this is to Select a Psyker. The next instruction is unless you have 0 warp charge, select one of your Psyker units. Those are actually two separate sentences which is why it has a period. A Psyker is a model with the Psyker special rule. So I guess that's like a 3rd way that independent characters can cast psychic powers from a squad. By the way if you say that means you do it twice then that makes no sense grammatically which is illogical.


Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence
1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

What's the first thing you do in this sentence? Select a Psyker and a Psychic Power.

Unit type != being a unit, is your first error

So yes, the IC is still a character. He is not, anymore, a single model unit - because you are told he cannot be, he is a normal member of the unit for all rule purposes, and no normal member of the unit is a single model unit

nosferatu1001 wrote:
Unit type != being a unit, is your first error

So yes, the IC is still a character. He is not, anymore, a single model unit - because you are told he cannot be, he is a normal member of the unit for all rule purposes, and no normal member of the unit is a single model unit

Should actually read what I wrote which is that (character) follow the normal rules, psychic phase is actually not a normal rule. Also that's a fallacy as one model can be a unit. Also the myriad of all the other rules I quoted regarding a selection et.. al..

The other rules, such as where you ignore that it states "select psyker" meaning "psyker unit", as you are told, and in the actual text telling you how to do this it again states "psyker unit"?

I read it, but you are quoting rules that dont actually support your assertions, for the reasons given already. Yes, they are still a character. Character is a unit type but you are making a classic error in that unit type isnt actually a unit level characteristic, but model level.

Re-evaluate what you are quoting, as it is clear there are some fundamentals youve missed.

Hollismason wrote:
He doesn't lose his status as a unit , all models are units per the rules.

All models are members of units. All models are not units.

He still remains a character, which is a unit type.

No, it isn't.

CHARACTERS wrote:In addition to their unit type, some models might also be noted as being characters...

'Character' is a special rule that is applied in addition to the unit type. It is not a unit type.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

This completely disregards that statement that characters counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes

So you're saying that the rule that tells you that characters count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes is actually telling us that characters don't count as a part of the unit for all rules purposes?

He is a (character) unit within a unit?

So are you just going to ignore the reasons I pointed out that having a unit within another unit doesn't actually work within the rules of the game?

A Psyker is a model with the Psyker special rule.

No, it isn't. A Psyker, for the purposes of resolving psychic powers, is a unit with the Psyker special rule. As has been pointed out to you, and as has been quoted (including by you), numerous times now.

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence
1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

What's the first thing you do in this sentence? Select a Psyker and a Psychic Power.

That first sentence is a heading, not an instruction.

Hollismason wrote:
I just did that's literally the second thing I posted? He doesn't lose his status as a unit , all models are units per the rules. He still remains a character, which is a unit type. He can cast psychic powers as you can select him. I dunno how to draw it out any further.

Unit Type is part of a models characteristic profile. It has literally nothing to do with what unit you're in. And that still doesn't prove the underlined statement.

While an Independent Character is part of a unit, he counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes, though he still follows the rules for characters.

This completely disregards that statement that characters counts as part of the unit for all rules purposes

No, it doesn't. At all. Tac Squad Sergeants are part of the hint for all purposes and yet they're characters too.

Please read what I actually wrote thanks. Also, I've posted these rules multiple times.

He still remains a (character) which is a unit type. It's not a special ability. It's also not "units" it's "unit" with the Psyker special rule.

I have read what you wrote. Apparently you're not understanding what you're reading. Please explain why unit type is relevant?
And how does the unit have the Psyker special rule when only a single model in the unit has the rule?

He is a (character) unit within a unit? It's not like super complicated he has to follow all normal rules. Pyker abilites are Specia.

Special rules win when there's a contradiction. You haven't proven one.
In addition, you haven't proven that permission to nominate a Psyker unit allows you to nominate a unit that has a single Payker model.

By your assertion
Please quote the exact rule where my independent character that according to you follows all rules does not in fact become calvary when he joins a calvary unit?

You're again under the mistaken impression that Unit Type is a rule belonging to a unit. It's not. It's part of a models profile.

“In addition to its characteristics profile, each model will have a unit type, such as Infantry or Monstrous Creature, which we discuss in the Unit Types section.”

Excerpt From: Games Workshop Ltd. “Warhammer 40,000.” iBooks.
This material may be protected by copyright.

This goes back to my quotes regarding approaching the rules rationally and fairly by the way as by your interpretation you kind eliminate/punish/denigrate certain units in the game that can upgrade characters or have Psykers attached to them.

No sir. What units am I eliminating/punishing/denigrating? Back up your statements before attempting to throw out my arguments. Learn the actual rules before making statements like this.

I'd also like to refer to this distinction that the rules are a "all or nothing" phrase which keeps being insisted on, you select models to fire by selecting a unit and then models within that unit fires. You have to fire all those models before moving on but they do not all have to fire.

Because the shooting rules specify you fire each model in a unit. The Psyker rules are worded completely differently.

It I select a unit that has a model that has a Psyker special ability I've still selected a unit with the Psyker Special Rule because all models make up the unit which is where I think your logics getting caught up in. If that model is part of that unit then that unit has a model that can be selected to use the Psychic Ability it has. The rule that you are insisting on does not exist which is that all models within a unit must have the psychic ability which it doesn't state, it just states unit with the psychic ability. One of those models has the psychic ability which is part of that unit.

Does the unit have the special rule? Since it doesn't confer, we know the answer is no - the model does.

So I mean I guess I can break it down for you further and do a sentence tree but those are two perfectly good examples on why a unit with a psychic ability means a model with psychic ability that is part of that unit. It's the same thing.

It's not the same thing at all, unless you want to make up rules.
If a Mindstrike Missile lands covering 2 Space Marines in a unit with an attached Librarian, who suffers Perils?

Please select a group with an orange.
Please select a group with all oranges

I'm going to stop you right here. This doesn't work because you deliberately changed the example from the actual rule.

For the purposes of all rules, the term ‘Psyker’ and ‘Psyker unit’ refers to any unit with the Psyker, Psychic Pilot or Brotherhood of Psykers/Sorcerers special rules.

I'll keep this for later.

I think this is important as well since it is literally in the same instruction to select a psyker and psychic power which actually has a period at the end of it, which is grammatically the end of that sentence. So you can argue either way that psyker and psychic unit are actually synonomous. The first step in this is to Select a Psyker. The next instruction is unless you have 0 warp charge, select one of your Psyker units. Those are actually two separate sentences which is why it has a period. A Psyker is a model with the Psyker special rule. So I guess that's like a 3rd way that independent characters can cast psychic powers from a squad. By the way if you say that means you do it twice then that makes no sense grammatically which is illogical.

Manifesting Psychic Powers Sequence
1. Select Psyker and Psychic Power. Unless you have 0 Warp Charge points remaining, select one of your Psyker units, then nominate a psychic power known to that unit that you wish to manifest.

What's the first thing you do in this sentence? Select a Psyker and a Psychic Power.

It's a heading, not the rule. The rule follows the heading.
In addition, per the rule you quoted (remember I said I'd use it later?) Psyker must refer to "unit with the Psyker special rule" for the purposes of all rules. So the heading you underlined actually says "Select unit with the Psyker special rule and Psychic Power."

I find it infinitely amusing that this argument continues.

insaniak, can't you just concede that there was some careless writing when defining what a "Psychic Unit" is? GW wrote the definition the way they did because they had to encompass both Psyker Characters and Psyker Brotherhoods. The rules for singular Pskyers are written from the perspective of the model itself, in a vacuum, not joined to any units. Honestly your incredibly narrow definition of what a "unit" is was likely not in the writers' heads at the time.

insaniak, your "interpretation" of the RAW here basically breaks the Psychic phase, and obviously goes against the intention of the authors. It should be fairly obvious that Games Workshop did not intend for Librarians joined to Tactical squads to suddenly be incapable of casting a Psychic Power because they no longer could as a "Psychic Unit".

The point of YMDC as I understand it is to HELP people UNDERSTAND the rules of the game, and to resolve rule disputes to PLAY the game.

What this has devolved into is you simply proving a point that yes, there is some errata in the Psychic Unit definition.

WHAT IS MORE LIKELY?

A) Your interpretation is correct?
B) There is a small errata in the definition of a Psychic Unit.

Your interpretation (and others on the same bandwagon) result in broken units, and really unusual situations that seem counter-intuitive and wrong on their face. Actually playing the game this way results in such odd situations that one questions if this is actually how the rules are supposed to work. Given that, what is the point of arguing about a mistake in the rules?

Now can we agree that this isn't how the game is actually supposed to be PLAYED? This argument doesn't HELP anyone. There's a difference between interpreting what RAW is, and being such a slave to RAW that you are bound by obvious rule errors to broken game situations.

Murrdox wrote:
insaniak, can't you just concede that there was some careless writing when defining what a "Psychic Unit" is? GW wrote the definition the way they did because they had to encompass both Psyker Characters and Psyker Brotherhoods. The rules for singular Pskyers are written from the perspective of the model itself, in a vacuum, not joined to any units. Honestly your incredibly narrow definition of what a "unit" is was likely not in the writers' heads at the time.

He's said as much. Hollismason is saying it's not vague at all.
And it's not insaniak's definition of "unit" - it's the writer's definition of "unit".

Murrdox wrote:

insaniak, can't you just concede that there was some careless writing when defining what a "Psychic Unit" is? GW wrote the definition the way they did because they had to encompass both Psyker Characters and Psyker Brotherhoods. The rules for singular Pskyers are written from the perspective of the model itself, in a vacuum, not joined to any units. Honestly your incredibly narrow definition of what a "unit" is was likely not in the writers' heads at the time.

You are not following the conversation very closely. (which is likely a compliment in this case.) Insaniak *asserts* that the writing is sloppy and contradictory. Hollismason insists that it is clear and unambiguous...

The real problem, from what I can tell, is that GW wrote some *very clear* rule definitions.... and then preceded to blatantly and obviously ignore them in places.

Leading to the real problem of us not being able to tell which situations they meant to follow the definitions, and which situations they didn't.

The rule about not using the same power twice is pretty darn clear, and makes plenty of sense. But if you follow those same definitions elsewhere (such as perils) the game breaks. So... is the defintion only off for Perils, or is is it off for everything...even things that otherwise could make sense...??

Anyway... Hollismason is misinterpreting rules to try and prove that everyone else is wrong, and the rules are clear and obvious.

Murrdox wrote:
The point of YMDC as I understand it is to HELP people UNDERSTAND the rules of the game, and to resolve rule disputes to PLAY the game.

I think this part is slightly off: YMDC for users to express their positions (making the call) on rules that might not be clear. Insaniak is clearly putting forward his position, so is Hollismason. Both are withing what YMDC is about.

Your post however, is not an expression of your position, but instead a form of rant aimed at a user (or bandwagon) that you do not agree with. Disprove them with rules if you think they are wrong. Do not simply state "Your interpretation result in broken units".

Murrdox wrote:
Given that, what is the point of arguing about a mistake in the rules?
Now can we agree that this isn't how the game is actually supposed to be PLAYED? This argument doesn't HELP anyone. There's a difference between interpreting what RAW is, and being such a slave to RAW that you are bound by obvious rule errors to broken game situations.

This discussion is also clearly about the RaW. If they were arguing about how it is PLAYED, they would post HIWPI.
Only by breaking down the RaW can we come to a decision about "Whats the rules reason a unit with 2 psykers cannot cast the same spell??"

When it comes down to it, i also agree that a Unit with 2 different Psykers is still, by RaW, a single unit. With all the broken results. I'm just not as much into "Philosophical RaW" as i am into Raw that is argued for a HYWPI result to feel like i need to actively participate.

 BlackTalos wrote:

Murrdox wrote:
The point of YMDC as I understand it is to HELP people UNDERSTAND the rules of the game, and to resolve rule disputes to PLAY the game.

I think this part is slightly off: YMDC for users to express their positions (making the call) on rules that might not be clear. Insaniak is clearly putting forward his position, so is Hollismason. Both are withing what YMDC is about.

Your post however, is not an expression of your position, but instead a form of rant aimed at a user (or bandwagon) that you do not agree with. Disprove them with rules if you think they are wrong. Do not simply state "Your interpretation result in broken units".

My point is that there is no real rule dispute going on here. This thread isn't going to accomplish anything that is going to help anyone to play the game that this forum is devoted to. On the contrary, threads like this that devolve into beating dead horses threaten to INCREASE confusion and CAUSE more rule disputes than are necessary, especially for new players.

Rule threads like the classic "Do you need to roll to hit with Psychic Scream"? Useful, even if they go off the rails sometimes. Points out a rule contradiction, attempts to resolve it.

Threads like this? You might end up with some new player who sees this thread, goes back to his gaming group, and proceeds to try and convince his new player friends that Psykers are broken, ruining the game for them. There's no useful outcome there.

The only point of this thread is arguing for arugment's sake. It's lost focus on the game. That's my point.