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 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Are there any laws in the UK or Northern Ireland that prevent businesses from discriminating against customers for sexual orientation?

You can refuse to serve a customer for any reason.

GW staff regularly ban people, especially certain kids. Pubs also. Nobody has the right to say they are a special case and therefore you cant ban me.

I don't like this case not only as a lawsuit magnet of dubious, but it sets up minorities as privileged under law.

A publican or shopkeeper (for example) can ban anyone from his premises, if the shopkeeper is just a manager they can still ban but the banned person can appeal to the owner. These cake shop owners are in their rights to refuse service, that is normal.

However it is ominous that society is changing to a pattern where someone cannot be banned from a business if they have a minority card to play. " I can ban you from my shop, because its my shop but I cant ban him because he happens to be gay, even though it's my shop.

Well the Christian could choose not to be a Christian.

Oh, and INB4 someone calls me a homophobic Christian bigot, please note. I'm an atheist Libertarian who doesn't think the best way to protect one groups rights and freedoms is to strip way another groups rights and freedoms.

 d-usa wrote:


Feminist quote?

That's hilarious.

Yea, just one of these

 Orlanth wrote:

 DarkTraveler777 wrote:
Are there any laws in the UK or Northern Ireland that prevent businesses from discriminating against customers for sexual orientation?

You can refuse to serve a customer for any reason.

GW staff regularly ban people, especially certain kids. Pubs also. Nobody has the right to say they are a special case and therefore you cant ban me.

I don't like this case not only as a lawsuit magnet of dubious, but it sets up minorities as privileged under law.

A publican or shopkeeper (for example) can ban anyone from his premises, if the shopkeeper is just a manager they can still ban but the banned person can appeal to the owner. These cake shop owners are in their rights to refuse service, that is normal.

However it is ominous that society is changing to a pattern where someone cannot be banned from a business if they have a minority card to play. " I can ban you from my shop, because its my shop but I cant ban him because he happens to be gay, even though it's my shop.

Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

Hey, why argue about the facts as they exist when we can just make stuff up and pretend it's true, right?

We know they refused to make the cake because they are homophobic. Just because you're religion doesn't approve doesn't mean you get an instant cop out from the Law.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Or is a case of "Gay rights trump religious rights"?

It's really not that complicated of an issue. It's always amazing how difficult it is for people to understand.

You cannot refuse service to a protected class.

Gays can't refuse to serve Christians, Christians can't reserve to serve gays.

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Well the Christian could choose not to be a Christian.

I always find it depressing when people think their liberty should trump everyone else's liberty.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

I wonder what will happen if one day a gay business owner refuses service to a Muslim or Christian because he disapproves of their religious beliefs. Should be an interesting situation.

I don't know how 'interesting' it would be. - It's the exact same situation, as 'Religion or Beliefs' is one of the items in the Equality Act (Also, I can't believe I forgot Gender, was the 6th thing - a major, major bad on my part!)

It still seems kind of simple to me.

If want to Run Business in UK.
-Then Agree to Equality Act AND all it entails.
Else Don't run Business in UK.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Well the Christian could choose not to be a Christian.

I always find it depressing when people think their liberty should trump everyone else's liberty.

I'm pretty sure was a sarcastic reference to the idea that gay people could choose to be straight.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

Facts, do you speak it?

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 MrDwhitey wrote:
Well the Christian could choose not to be a Christian.

I always find it depressing when people think their liberty should trump everyone else's liberty.

No, I'm just pointing out that there's a difference between the two. One you can choose to be or not to be.

The other is fabulous. Also what Ouze said.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:



Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

I wonder if tolerance is reciprocated. What would happen if someone went to the Admiral Duncan pub in the heart of the gay area of Soho and started preaching the Gospel.
Its perfectly legal to have a conversation in a pub yes.

Frankly I suspect that not only would the preacher likely be chucked out in short order, but would likely face hostile police involvement. If you can be arrested for preaching outside a cathedral because it might offend local moslems, what will the Met do if a pub full of gays complain you are preaching in their pub?

In either case how would the public react if the preacher tried to sue the pub for discrimination.

UK government are preparing the masses that their in negotiations with space aliens to walk amongst us?

 Compel wrote:


If want to Run Business in UK.
-Then Agree to Equality Act AND all it entails.
Else Don't run Business in UK.

You are practicing equality is you reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone you choose from your shop regardless of who they are.

When an empowered minority can override that right then equality has gone.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Jihadin wrote:
UK government are preparing the masses that their in negotiations with space aliens to walk amongst us?

That was random.
Here I topically ask what planet you are on.

 d-usa wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

Or is a case of "Gay rights trump religious rights"?

It's really not that complicated of an issue. It's always amazing how difficult it is for people to understand.

You cannot refuse service to a protected class.

Gays can't refuse to serve Christians, Christians can't reserve to serve gays.

I think it is slightly more complex than that, even though what you've said there isn't actually wrong.

It's more "Business A can not refuse to serve Group B that is listed under the Equality Act of The United Kingdom for the reasons of being Group B, which is listed under the Equality Act of The United Kingdom." However, if Group B does believe it is due to the reasons listed under The Equality Act of The United Kingdom, Group B can then choose to bring Business A to court, however, they must keep in mind Burden of Proof etc, as standard for a Legal case in the United Kingdom."

But then, I'm not a lawyer.

Thread opinions and thoughts aside, Orlanth, this is Jihadin.

This is sort of what he does.

 Medium of Death wrote:
We know they refused to make the cake because they are homophobic. Just because you're religion doesn't approve doesn't mean you get an instant cop out from the Law.

No we don't. We know nothing of the sort. Did you even bother to read the article?

A Christian-run bakery that refused a customer's request to make a cake with a slogan supporting gay marriage could face a discrimination case in court.

Ashers Baking Company declined an order from a gay rights activist, asking for cake featuring the Sesame Street puppets, Bert and Ernie.

The customer also wanted the cake to feature the logo of a Belfast-based campaign group called Queerspace.

The bakery firm could face legal action from the Equality Commission.

From the article, my understanding is not that the Baker refused service because the customer was gay. He refused service because the customer wanted a product that carried a political message and the logo of a political campaign group for a political issue that he disagrees with on religious grounds. And the customer was a gay activist with an axe to grind, to boot.

Any religious person with a conservative outlook (of which there are MANY in say, Islam) would for obvious reasons not wish to condone, or be seen to condone something that contradicts his faith's teachings.

Just because you're religion doesn't approve doesn't mean you get an instant cop out from the Law.

But apparently if you're gay, that means you DO get an instant cop out from the Law and you don't have to tolerate other people's religious views and the fact that they don't like what you do.

 Ouze wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:


Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

Hey, why argue about the facts as they exist when we can just make stuff up and pretend it's true, right?

I could say the same about you, hypocrite. Please see above. ^

 Orlanth wrote:

 Compel wrote:


If want to Run Business in UK.
-Then Agree to Equality Act AND all it entails.
Else Don't run Business in UK.

You are practicing equality is you reserve the right to refuse to serve anyone you choose from your shop regardless of who they are.

I'm not discriminating. I refuse the right to serve anyone I want to. How is it my fault that they are all gay and want gay cakes?

It's really similar in the US and our "fire anyone for any reason" laws. I can fire anyone I want for any reason I want, as long as it's not for a reason that is protected.

I can fire a black guy because he doesn't do a good job.
I can fire a black guy because his shoes are always dirty.
I can fire a black guy because that one song he is always humming just pisses me off.
I can fire a black guy because I was pissed off that morning and he was the first person that spoke to me that day.
But I cannot fire a black guy because he is black.

It's not rocket science. Your freedom to refuse service to anyone does not give you the freedom to discriminate against protected classes.

 Orlanth wrote:

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:



Indeed, its rather totalitarian. "Approve of my sexual orientation, or go to jail!".

I wonder if tolerance is reciprocated. What would happen if someone went to the Admiral Duncan pub in the heart of the gay area of Soho and started preaching the Gospel.
Its perfectly legal to have a conversation in a pub yes.

Frankly I suspect that not only would the preacher likely be chucked out in short order, but would likely face hostile police involvement. If you can be arrested for preaching outside a cathedral because it might offend local moslems, what will the Met do if a pub full of gays complain you are preaching in their pub?

In either case how would the public react if the preacher tried to sue the pub for discrimination.

He'd be lynched.

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

But apparently if you're gay, that means you DO get an instant cop out from the Law and you don't have to tolerate other people's religious views and the fact that they don't like what you do.

A gay guy has to tolerate your religious views. A religious guy has to tolerate your gay views.
Both can say gak about the other and tell them that they think their views are wrong and that their lifestyles are wrong.
A gay guy cannot refuse service to a religious guy because he is religious. A religious guy cannot refuse service to a gay guy because he is gay.

It's not rocket science...

 Shadow Captain Edithae wrote:

 Ouze wrote:
Hey, why argue about the facts as they exist when we can just make stuff up and pretend it's true, right?

I could say the same about you, hypocrite. Please see above. ^

Not really sure what I said ITT that was hypocritical.

Shadow Captain Edithae you seem to be projecting malice on to the person who just wanted a cake made by a bakery.

Are you feeling ok? Did a gay man once blow you a cheeky kiss from across the bar to offended your manly sensibilities?

 Medium of Death wrote:
Shadow Captain Edithae you seem to be projecting malice on to the person who just wanted a cake made by a bakery.

Are you feeling ok? Did a gay man once blow you a cheeky kiss from across the bar to offended your manly sensibilities?

Whos projecting now?

No male has ever made a pass at me. In fact, on the only occasion in my life that I can recall, it was quite the opposite.


I'm not arguing this from a "I dislike gays" viewpoint. I don't care about other people's sexual orientation. It doesn't affect me, I have no interest in how they live their life.

I'm arguing this on a libertarian principle - that gay people have the right to be gay, but religious people have the right to disapprove and express their disapproval, and not condone it.

Do I think you should have the right to refuse service because the customer is gay? NO.

Do I think you should have the right to refuse service because the customer wants a product that carries a politically charged slogan and logo? YES.

In this case, from the article posted by the OP I think its quite clearly the latter.

I wonder if some European Court of Human Rights that the UK falls under might have recently had some sort of ruling regarding being allowed not to follow laws because of your religion?

 d-usa wrote:

It's not rocket science. Your freedom to refuse service to anyone does not give you the freedom to discriminate against protected classes.

Refusing to make a cake based upon subject matter is not the same as refusing to do business with someone due to protected class. Subject matter is not a protected class, a person is. Who get's to legislate what is 'obscene'? Who determines which content counts as 'legitimately able to decline making' and what you can't refuse? Maybe a black person asks for a cake which says 'Happy Birthday N-word' and they refuse to make it. Are they discriminating against a protected class by refusing to make the cake for a black person or is it because they disagree with the content? What about if someone wants a cake for a cancer victim who just beat breastcancer and wants a breast cake to celebrate her double mastectomy? Is refusing to make that cake discriminating against women or is it content objection? When you make it so creative people have no right to deny jobs based upon questionable content, you destroy the system.

They will gladly sell them a cake, just not with a message which they deem questionable.

But it is the UK...

 Medium of Death wrote:
Why are people projecting on to the victims that they did it purposefully to start a fight?

What are you basing it on?

Nothing.

Mr McArthur added that his firm offered the customer a full refund, which was collected shortly after the order was refused.
"We thought that was the end of it, but approximately six weeks later we received a letter from the Equality Commission. The Equality Commission's letter said that we had discriminated against the customer on the grounds of his sexual orientation.
"It asked us to propose how we would recompense the customer for this discrimination. It also said it would pursue legal proceedings if we didn't respond within a seven-day time period," Mr McArthur said.

Ker-ching

Cash Cow attempt

 Iron_Captain wrote:

 Soladrin wrote:

 Iron_Captain wrote:
Seriously? The baker should be able to refuse service to anyone he damn well wants, for any reason he wants. It is his bakery, his call. If he does not want the customers money for any reason that is his loss.

Maybe the US could use a little more Putin? It looks like things there are going too far in the other way. Sure, you should be tolerant of gay people, but you should also be tolerant of people who dislike gay people.

First of, read the damn article. Secondly, yes, let's spread homophobia throughout the world!

Bugger off.

You should be tolerant of homophobics? Why? Are you tolerant of racists? Are you tolerant of bigots?

Actually... you may be.

No, I didn't read the article. I am lazy . No idea why I thought it was in the US. Maybe my Russian indoctrination automatically makes me assume all bad things happen in the US? I don't know.
But being bigoted towards bigots just makes you a bigot yourself. I think we should tolerate all opinions, within limits of course. Inciting violence and hate speech and such should not be tolerated.
Finding the middle way is always the best in my opinion.

This is the kind of thinly veiled twoddle that bigots pedal out to defend bigoted opinions. It serves only to prevent progress towards an equal society.
From a legal point of view, the company has the right to refuse service, but not on grounds which discriminate against a protected minority group. The Bed and Breakfast incident sets a clear precedent.
From a moral point of view, the kind of wooly thinking that has us find a 'middle way' between the people and bigots leads our laws being middlingly bigoted.

In case this is not clear, here is a simple list of questions to check if your business is being a tool:

Do you want to refuse service?
If 'no', check if the product will promote discrimination against discriminated minorities (age, race, sex, gender, orientation) - If it will, you should refuse service.
If 'yes', check if the motivation for doing so is because the customer is of a discriminated minority (age, race, sex, gender, orientation), or because the product promotes equal treatment for such - If yes, then your business is being a tool and should stop.