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sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

So no rules quote, then?

flamer: template, the template is it's maximum range (pg40). and the requirement on measuring range is B2B (pg10). You need a firing model and a target model and you need to measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

I've quoted it many times and I'll provide it again, can you cite any rules to back up your position without house rules?

It is crystal clear that:

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template.

is demonstrably wrong and I've shown it many times. Templates do not ignore the requirements of B2B.

The skorcha mounted on the forge world kopter can't ever hit anything ever? Riiiiiiiiiiiiigghhhhht

 Crablezworth wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

So no rules quote, then?

flamer: template, the template is it's maximum range (pg40). and the requirement on measuring range is B2B (pg10). You need a firing model and a target model and you need to measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

I've quoted it many times and I'll provide it again, can you cite any rules to back up your position without house rules?

It is crystal clear that:

No. You theoretically have 'infinite range' vertically, because the rules say that you hit anything under the template.

is demonstrably wrong and I've shown it many times. Templates do not ignore the requirements of B2B.

The skorcha mounted on the forge world kopter can't ever hit anything ever? Riiiiiiiiiiiiigghhhhht

I don't have any forge world rules, nor modles, just out of curiosity though, why are you making that claim?

sirlynchmob wrote:flamer: template, the template is it's maximum range (pg40). and the requirement on measuring range is B2B (pg10). You need a firing model and a target model and you need to measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

So, for the last time: Where is the rule that tells you how to measure with the template?

Cambonimachine wrote:so by that turn of logic, the closer models get to the unit with the template weapon, the shorter range the template gets since you have to continually angle it upward?

Playing strictly by the rules, yes, the angle would mean fewer models hit if a model is right up close.

From my experience, if the enemy models are close enough to make placing the template awkward, most people (including myself) just default to holding the template above them as you do, in most cases I would suspect without even realising that it's technically against the rules.

 insaniak wrote:

Cambonimachine wrote:so by that turn of logic, the closer models get to the unit with the template weapon, the shorter range the template gets since you have to continually angle it upward?

Playing strictly by the rules, yes, the angle would mean fewer models hit if a model is right up close.

From my experience, if the enemy models are close enough to make placing the template awkward, most people (including myself) just default to holding the template above them as you do, in most cases I would suspect without even realising that it's technically against the rules.

It is technically against the rules but is the way its commonly played, hell if you want to get technical, think of the nightmare terrain has in store for flamer templates, technically not being able to physically place it makes it unable to function.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:flamer: template, the template is it's maximum range (pg40). and the requirement on measuring range is B2B (pg10). You need a firing model and a target model and you need to measure B2B. As we are told range:template than RAW you use that to measure and see who is in range while still meeting the requirement of B2B. If you can't measure distance with a template, than Templates are not usable in 40k.

So, for the last time: Where is the rule that tells you how to measure with the template?

You just quoted them. You measure Bast to Base. Instead of a range in inches, you have a range of the template. so when you measure following the rules on pg 10, you use the template instead of the ruler.

as you seem to have nothing constructive to add, I'll leave you to play by your house rules. Or at least admit you're argument leads to templates being unusable.

sirlynchmob wrote:
... you use the template instead of the ruler..

How?

You keep dodging this very simple question. Where is the rule that tells you how to measure a distance between two objects using a non-linear measuring device?

Do you hold the template between them lengthwise? Width-wise? Roll out the circumference of it?

The template is not a measuring device. Without a rule telling you how to use it to measure a distance, all you can do is make something up.


Or, you can go by the rule that says that anything under the template is hit, which gives us a simple and effective way of determining the range - If it's under the template, it's in range.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
... you use the template instead of the ruler..

How?

You keep dodging this very simple question. Where is the rule that tells you how to measure a distance between two objects using a non-linear measuring device?

Do you hold the template between them lengthwise? Width-wise? Roll out the circumference of it?

The template is not a measuring device. Without a rule telling you how to use it to measure a distance, all you can do is make something up.


Or, you can go by the rule that says that anything under the template is hit, which gives us a simple and effective way of determining the range - If it's under the template, it's in range.

Fine, for the sake of argument you are right, now explain how that works in step 2 & 3 of the shooting phase?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Fine, for the sake of argument you are right, now explain how that works in step 2 & 3 of the shooting phase?

You place the template so that the short end is touching the firing model's base, and any models under the template are hit.

sirlynchmob wrote:
did you miss range:template.

No, but what does that have to do with measuring distances with a tape measure or measuring stick?

But fine if you guys can't see that means you are using the template to check ranges b2b, then template weapons can never be used. You can't determine if they are in range to declare a target unit, nor declare them as a weapon as you can't verify the distance to the target.

The range is template, how to measure that distance with a tape measure is not defined in the brb.

If you agree you use them to measure range, then you have to acknowledge they measure range from B2B as the rules for templates do not change that requirement. Especially if you use a template to see if other models can have wounds allocate to them other than the ones under the template. templates tell you to use normal wound allocation, so if you can't find a way to check the range b2b, than out of range triggers and the would pool empties.

But you do not use the template to measure range as "distances are measured in inches (") with a tape measure or measuring stick." (General Principles chapter, Measuring Distances section).

They are not measured using the template.

so in trying to prove templates have infinite range you and peregrine just nerfed them out of existence. congrats.

Why would a template have infinite range?

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Fine, for the sake of argument you are right, now explain how that works in step 2 & 3 of the shooting phase?

You place the template so that the short end is touching the firing model's base, and any models under the template are hit.

That is what you do instead of rolling to hit, that has nothing to do with range.

Where is your rule to ignore the requirement to check range based on pg 10? "this allows you to check weather your units are in range of their target", and "distances between units are always measured to and from the bases of the closest models in each of the units"

step 2 "to do so, you must check range and LOS

step 3, "every model that wishes to shoot must be within range of at least one visible model..."

step 5, "if none of the firing models are in range of a particular model in the target unit, then wounds cannot be allocated to it"

all requirements to check range are ALWAYS measured B2B. Where is your exemption to this? If you can not use the template to measure range as you claim, then how are you doing so to meet 2,3 & 5?

sirlynchmob wrote:
Where is your rule to ignore the requirement to check range based on pg 10?

There isn't one.

The rules don't give us any mechanism to check that range, though, because none is necessary - you find out if the models are in range when you place the template.


You're absolutely correct in that the rules should list that exemption. But if you use that lack as a reason to require players to measure range for template weapons, you're left with no way to resolve template shots without adding a house rule detailing how to measure with a teardrop-shaped object.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
Where is your rule to ignore the requirement to check range based on pg 10?

There isn't one.

The rules don't give us any mechanism to check that range, though, because none is necessary - you find out if the models are in range when you place the template.

You're absolutely correct in that the rules should list that exemption. But if you use that lack as a reason to require players to measure range for template weapons, you're left with no way to resolve template shots without adding a house rule detailing how to measure with a teardrop-shaped object.

It is necessary, you don't use the template til step 4 and you use it instead of rolling to hit, after you've needed to check range twice. how do you check range before you use the template? How do you check range after you are told to wound as normal and needing to be in range?

we know how to measure range, it's B2B

you've house ruled it to ignore that requirement, I say RAW you can meet it by using the template to see if it can reach both models, based on rules I've listed many times. The template is roughly 8" long and can be used to see if it touches B2B.

I wouldn't have as much a problem with your house rule if you followed it up with since you are told how to place it, then the models under it are the only models in range of it and no other models in the unit may be hit. I'd still say that's wrong, but it is less objectionable. Because when we go back to the open top transport and 10 models with templates hitting 3 models in the target unit, You rolled great and got 30 wounds, If the template shows you what models are in range when you place it, can you check to see if other models in the unit are in range? And if so, how?

sirlynchmob wrote:
]The template is roughly 8" long and can be used to see if it touches B2B.

Which would make it roughly 18" around the edge if you start with the narrow end touching the table and roll around the outside.

So can I claim the template has a range of 18"?

sirlynchmob wrote:
The template is roughly 8" long and can be used to see if it touches B2B.

What's your point? A blast marker is roughly 3" in diameter and you can attempt to place it in base contact with two models, but that has nothing to do with measuring range. The fact you keep ignoring is that "range: template" and "range: one template length (about 8")" are not at all the same thing.

And if so, how?

By moving the template around to check which models could potentially be hit before committing to a final position. The most obvious definition for "within range" is "a model that could be reached by the template", and the way you determine if a model can be reached by a template is holding it over the model and looking down from above.

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
]The template is roughly 8" long and can be used to see if it touches B2B.

Which would make it roughly 18" around the edge if you start with the narrow end touching the table and roll around the outside.

So can I claim the template has a range of 18"?

I have a standard 12" ruler so I can roll it out to 26" right? my ruler is only 12" long so all your models are within 12" of it right?

I have one flamer left, You have a unit with 4 models in a unit, that when I hold my template as instructed I can see you're entire army under it. I roll to wound everyone, you fail all your saves. I win right? Because even that unit 30" away was under the template and now removed as a casualty.







Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Peregrine wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
The template is roughly 8" long and can be used to see if it touches B2B.

What's your point? A blast marker is roughly 3" in diameter and you can attempt to place it in base contact with two models, but that has nothing to do with measuring range. The fact you keep ignoring is that "range: template" and "range: one template length (about 8")" are not at all the same thing.

And if so, how?

By moving the template around to check which models could potentially be hit before committing to a final position. The most obvious definition for "within range" is "a model that could be reached by the template", and the way you determine if a model can be reached by a template is holding it over the model and looking down from above.

Once you start moving the template around, you are measuring range and during step 5, you must be in range as defined on page 10, ie B2B. Templates do not override that restriction, and even tell you to allocate wounds as normal. so you must be in range as measured by B2B.

sirlynchmob wrote:
I have a standard 12" ruler so I can roll it out to 26" right? my ruler is only 12" long so all your models are within 12" of it right?

Your ruler has markings on it that we use to measure distances with. The template you're trying to use to measure distances does not.

As such, in order to use it as a measuring device, you're going to need some sort of explanation as to just how it should be used. You've clearly decided that just laying it down between the units is the way to do it... but there are no rules that actually back up that idea.

...that when I hold my template as instructed I can see you're entire army under it.

How?

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I have a standard 12" ruler so I can roll it out to 26" right? my ruler is only 12" long so all your models are within 12" of it right?

Your ruler has markings on it that we use to measure distances with. The template you're trying to use to measure distances does not.

As such, in order to use it as a measuring device, you're going to need some sort of explanation as to just how it should be used. You've clearly decided that just laying it down between the units is the way to do it... but there are no rules that actually back up that idea.

...that when I hold my template as instructed I can see you're entire army under it.

How?

I moved my ruler off my base to reach your base, just like you want to do with the template. so a 12" ruler can only measure 12" between B2B.

I swore I typed I was holding it at a 45 degree + angle as such I see your entire army.

I have one flamer left, You have a unit with 4 models in a unit, that when I hold my template as instructed, I have to hold it at a 45 degree angle upward, as a result, I can see you're entire army under it. I roll to wound everyone, you fail all your saves. I win right? Because even that unit 30" away was under the template and now removed as a casualty.

sirlynchmob wrote:
I swore I typed I was holding it at a 45 degree + angle as such I see your entire army.

Why are you looking through it horizontally when the rules for using templates tell you to look down from above?

sirlynchmob wrote:
I moved my ruler off my base to reach your base, just like you want to do with the template. so a 12" ruler can only measure 12" between B2B.

If you moved the ruler, then you didn't measure correctly with that measuring device.

Not all measuring devices are used by holding them stationary, however. (this one, for example).

I swore I typed I was holding it at a 45 degree + angle as such I see your entire army.

Being able to see my entire army through the template is not the same as my entire army being under the template.

sirlynchmob wrote:

 insaniak wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I have a standard 12" ruler so I can roll it out to 26" right? my ruler is only 12" long so all your models are within 12" of it right?

Your ruler has markings on it that we use to measure distances with. The template you're trying to use to measure distances does not.

As such, in order to use it as a measuring device, you're going to need some sort of explanation as to just how it should be used. You've clearly decided that just laying it down between the units is the way to do it... but there are no rules that actually back up that idea.

...that when I hold my template as instructed I can see you're entire army under it.

How?

I moved my ruler off my base to reach your base, just like you want to do with the template. so a 12" ruler can only measure 12" between B2B.

I swore I typed I was holding it at a 45 degree + angle as such I see your entire army.

I have one flamer left, You have a unit with 4 models in a unit, that when I hold my template as instructed, I have to hold it at a 45 degree angle upward, as a result, I can see you're entire army under it. I roll to wound everyone, you fail all your saves. I win right? Because even that unit 30" away was under the template and now removed as a casualty.

But that makes no sense. There is no rule telling us in what orientation to hold it other than it has to start at the base of the model using it. For RAI, the template is assumed to be immaterial, so you can measure everyone under the template B2B. Otherwise, you could never hit more than one or two models, due to objects. For that matter, what is defined as B2B? Is it the top of my base, the bottom, what if I have sand or flock on it, does that count?

You're intentionally arguing a stupid point. Either house rule it one way or the other, but don't be asinine for the sake of being asinine. 40K is poorly written, that's the way it is.

 Peregrine wrote:

sirlynchmob wrote:
I swore I typed I was holding it at a 45 degree + angle as such I see your entire army.

Why are you looking through it horizontally when the rules for using templates tell you to look down from above?

...and still hasnt explained where the house rule of using a non-Inch graded measuring device has come from.

As noted by Insaniak, it doesnt matter as to be hit you have to be in range, by definition, and placing the template and looking from ABOVE tells you if they are hit, and thus in range.