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2014/08/18 02:48:37
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
That's the dumbest thing I have heard this weekend. And that includes the stupid stuff coming out of Riotville...
So we have yearlong hearings because the IRS investigates people, which they are allowed by law to do, because Obama.
And Perry tries to force an elected official out of office by cutting off legislated funding, but that's okay because "it's not against the law to veto stuff".
Must be an R/D thing...
2014/08/18 02:50:27
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Count I of the indictment of Texas Gov. Rick Perry alleges that,
[Rick] Perry, with intent to harm another, to-wit, Rosemary Lehnberg and the Public Integrity Unit of the Travis County District Attorney’s Office, intentionally or knowingly misused government property by dealing with such property contrary to an agreement under which defendant held such property or contrary to the oath of office he took as a public servant, such government property being monies in excess of $200,000 which were approved and authorized by the Legislature of the State of Texas to fund the continued operation of the Public Integrity Unit of the Travis County District Attorney’s Office, and which had come into defendant’s custody or possession by virtue of the defendant’s office as a public servant, namely, Governor of the State of Texas.
The relevant statute, Texas Penal Code § 39.02, provides,
A public servant commits an offense if, with intent to obtain a benefit or with intent to harm or defraud another, he intentionally or knowingly … misuses government property, services, personnel, or any other thing of value belonging to the government that has come into the public servant’s custody or possession by virtue of the public servant’s office or employment.
And “misuses” is defined to mean,
“Misuse” means to deal with property contrary to:
(A) an agreement under which the public servant holds the property;
(B) a contract of employment or oath of office of a public servant;
(C) a law, including provisions of the General Appropriations Act specifically relating to government property, that prescribes the manner of custody or disposition of the property; or
(D) a limited purpose for which the property is delivered or received.
Yet I don’t see how this can possibly apply to Perry’s behavior, which is “carr[ying] out a promise [using his veto power] to nix $7.5 million over two years for the public integrity unit run by the office of Travis County District Attorney Rosemary Lehmberg. The Democratic official was convicted of drunken driving, but refused Perry’s repeated calls to resign.”
1. To begin with, the law applies to a public servant’s misusing property that is in his “custody or possession.” What property was in the governor’s custody or possession? The $7.5 million, if it had been appropriated, would have been in the custody or possession of the district attorney, not the governor.
But, more important, this money was never appropriated, precisely because of the governor’s veto. Presumably this $7.5 million remained in the Texas State Treasury, so if it is was in anyone’s “custody or possession,” it would have been in the custody or possession of the Texas Comptroller of Public Accounts.
The power to sign or veto appropriations, of course, does give the governor some power to direct the distribution or nondistribution of money. That is an important power. But it doesn’t carry within “custody or possession” of the money, just like a juror or judge deciding whether to order plaintiff to pay defendant money doesn’t thereby acquire “custody or possession” of the money being paid.
2. Beyond this, how does vetoing the appropriation qualify as “misuse,” in the sense of “dealing with” the $7.5 million “contrary to an agreement under which defendant held such property or contrary to the oath of office he took as a public servant”? I think I understand what this language means in typical cases — for instance, if there’s an agreement (perhaps even an implied agreement) that certain property (say, city-owned trucks managed by the defendant) is to be used for city business and not to haul away material from the defendant’s own private demolition site.
But what sort of “agreement” is there under which the governor “holds” the $7.5 million that he can either choose to allow the DA’s office to receive or order returned to the Texas State Treasury (especially given that the governor never actually had access to the $7.5 million for his own purposes)? Presumably the prosecutor is planning to prove some such “agreement” in court, but I can’t imagine what it might be. Moreover, while for a typical public servant, his employers (or the legislature) can require certain agreements about the use of property as a condition of his employment, I don’t think the legislature may impose such agreements on the governor (nor do I know of their ever having tried to do this).
Also, how does vetoing the approriation constitute as “dealing with” the $7.5 million “contrary to the oath of office of a public servant”? The Texas governor’s oath is, “I, _______________________, do solemnly swear (or affirm), that I will faithfully execute the duties of the office of ___________________ of the State of Texas, and will to the best of my ability preserve, protect, and defend the Constitution and laws of the United States and of this State, so help me God.” Is the prosecution’s theory that vetoes of appropriations are criminal if they are not seen as “faithful[] execut[ion of] the duties of the office of Governor” — though deciding whether or not to “approv[e]” a bill is itself part of the duties of that office? Or is it that such vetoes are criminal if they do not “to the best of [the Governor's] ability preserve, protect, and defend the [federal and state] Constitution and laws”? It’s hard to see what plausible interpretation of the statute the prosecutor has, at least one that isn’t hopelessly vague and politically manipulable.
3. Finally, the Texas Constitution expressly reserves the veto power to the governor. The governor is entitled to decide which laws he “approv[es]” and which he disapproves — without constraint from the legislature, or from county-level district attorneys. The legislature certainly can’t make it a crime for the governor to veto its appropriation bills; that would deny the governor the power that the Texas Constitution gives him.
Nor can the legislature make it a crime, I think, for the governor to veto its appropriation bills as an attempt to influence some government official’s behavior — behavior that is commonplace in the political process, and that is likewise within the governor’s exclusive power to decide which bills to give his “approval.” To be sure, the legislature can make it a crime for the governor to accept bribes in exchange for a veto; but there the crime is the acceptance of the bribe, not the veto itself. In the words of the Supreme Court in United States v. Brewer (1972), upholding a federal bribery statute against a federal constitutional challenge, “There is no need for the Government to show that appellee fulfilled the alleged illegal bargain; acceptance of the bribe is the violation of the statute, not performance of the illegal promise.” Likewise, a prosecutor can’t interpret Texas Penal Code § 39.02 as criminalizing certain uses of the governor’s veto power.
As Patterico noted, Count I of the indictment rests on the theory that it was the veto itself (and not, as with Count II, the threat of the veto) that was a crime. That can’t be so, I think, given the governor’s power to choose what bills to veto.
As I mentioned in my post about Count II of the indictment, I’m not an expert on these Texas statutes; if I am in error here, please let me know, and I’ll be glad to correct the error. But at this point, it seems to me that Count I is just as unsound as Count II.
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/08/18 02:52:10
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
d-usa wrote: That's the dumbest thing I have heard this weekend. And that includes the stupid stuff coming out of Riotville...
So we have yearlong hearings because the IRS investigates people, which they are allowed by law to do, because Obama.
And Perry tries to force an elected official out of office by cutting off legislated funding, but that's okay because "it's not against the law to veto stuff".
Must be an R/D thing...
What was the dumbest thing?
2014/08/18 04:28:48
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
When we look at this story, we need to be very careful to separate out the actual legal issues from the political undertones and optics; they are distinct. Politics seems to try and answer how society distributes power. The law tries to answer questions of where authority and power in certain relationships lay as society is currently configured. We need to keep this in mind as we are navigating this controversy: the politics are important, but since the legal system is being used to solve this problem (instead of using this as an election issue) the courts will review the extent of the authority Mr. Perry has as that authority is currently distributed. If someone stepped out of line, then they are liable for the consequences prescribed by law. I feel like most of us can probably agree on that...
Before I get started, I need to point out that I am not an attorney (nor do a play one on TV or online). I do not live in Texas, nor am I very familiar with their laws. If I say something that is incorrect, please feel free to correct me (with the appropriate citation, of course).
Also, the Texas statutes that are at issue in the case are listed at the top of the indictment. They can be found with a quick google search or here: http://www.statutes.legis.state.tx.us/?link=PE
If that is all you do I would be happy (and you would probably have done more than most people to understand what is going on and what is actually being argued in court, not the court of public opinion).
He cites Texas legal precedent that seems to be on point. What the precedent seems to reveal is that threats of lawful conduct are protected by free speech, even though the statutory language describing "coercion" seems very broad (he even raises the specter of it being unconstitutionally overbroad). This precedent seems. to me. to pass the smell test: if a governor can't threaten a veto (a lawful act) without breaking the law, how is a legislative body supposed to alter a bill in order to get the executive's signature? So the question becomes whether Mr. Perry has plenary power to strike a budget item. If he does then Texas precedent, at least as to Count II, seems to indicate the Governor can threaten, and follow through on, a veto. Thus, it is my opinion that, at least as to this portion of the lawsuit, this is a political dispute that needs to be settled by the public through the electoral process (the posturing of most comments that have preceded this one indicate to me that most people inherently recognize this and are trying to use this situation to their advantage).
I will not comment on Count I as I am unclear as to what the prosecution is actually arguing. I think they are saying that Mr. Perry misused government property (the money that was supposed to go to the Public Integrity Unit) in contravention of his public oath or as against some type of Agreement. I would need to see the agreement or oath before I made a determination. I am also unclear how Mr. Perry's plenary power for the line item veto would play into that fact scenario.
2014/08/18 05:00:15
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Relapse wrote: Just to play devil's advocate, would you give money to someone to run a department if they acted in a way you felt untrustworthy, or would you look to replace them with someone you felt was up to the job before dispensing funds?
You don't understand the difference between a department and a department head. The Joint Chiefs of Staff could be all simultaneously caught in a pedophile ring, and refuse to stand down from their positions, and it'd be completely unacceptable to say 'unless you guys stand down we're not giving money to the military anymore'.
Legalese bs. I mean, sure, it may be completely correct and it may well dismiss the indictment completely, but it's all still bs that ignores the real actual problem here - Perry tried to use the release of funds as a beatstick to force another official out of their job.
And for Perry himself, well I don't really care. Whatever he was going to do in Texas is done, and it'd be a stretch to claim that any other governor wouldn't have done much the same, and as a presidential hopeful well there's three agencies who will tell you he never stood a chance and they are Commerce, Education, and the — what’s the third one there? Let’s see…OK. Commerce, Education, and the...
What worries me is the number of people who don't understand, or at least choose to pretend not to understand, how far from acceptable governance this kind of behaviour is. I mean, you want good governance in your country? Then actually start insisting on it.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/18 05:10:06
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/08/18 05:21:21
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Relapse wrote: Just to play devil's advocate, would you give money to someone to run a department if they acted in a way you felt untrustworthy, or would you look to replace them with someone you felt was up to the job before dispensing funds?
You don't understand the difference between a department and a department head. The Joint Chiefs of Staff could be all simultaneously caught in a pedophile ring, and refuse to stand down from their positions, and it'd be completely unacceptable to say 'unless you guys stand down we're not giving money to the military anymore'.
If someone in a leadership position is found to be incompetant or seriously deficient in the performance of their duty, they should be relieved. If not being able to get her out of her office, but legaly able to withhold funding that could be squandered because she is a proven incompetant, then the governor is in the right.
Was she in this case found to be such? I don't really know, I was just proposing a scenario if she was.
2014/08/18 05:29:23
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
d-usa wrote: So Obama should be able to stop all federal funds to states with governors that are not up to his standards?
That depends... Do these governors that O. doesn't like get hammered drunk and commit crimes, then go to court for them and get convicted?
If so then yeah, why not? It's not as though he's punishing them because they are simply of a different political bent than he is, but rather that they are ineffective at their job as they can't even control their personal lives.
2014/08/18 05:57:46
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Relapse wrote: If someone in a leadership position is found to be incompetant or seriously deficient in the performance of their duty, they should be relieved. If not being able to get her out of her office, but legaly able to withhold funding that could be squandered because she is a proven incompetant, then the governor is in the right.
Was she in this case found to be such? I don't really know, I was just proposing a scenario if she was.
When someone did something as bad as that lady did, they absolutely should stand down or be relieved. But if they don't stand and you don't have a mechanism or the numbers to force her out, then you deal with it. You understand that one person won't actually squander a 7 million dollar budget because they're a drunk driver. You don't go about threatening to defund a whole department in order to force that person out. That's fething ridiculous.
I'm beginning to understand more and more why US government is so famously terrible. You guys just don't get it. The basics of government and process just don't register.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/18 06:00:09
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/08/18 06:00:09
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
I'm beginning to understand more and more why US government is so famously terrible. You guys just don't get it. The basics of government and process just don't register.
Hubris much?
Arrogant insults hurled at a nations government and its people make you feel superior?
Just remember that while currently in the dumps the US is still the equal to any other nation out there. Not better, never better but it is the equal to its peer nations.
Now, we Americans do have many flaws. More of late than in the past but with a little honest help we can turn things around.
By honest help, I don't mean for every would be expert to come along and wax poetic about the perfection of their countries system. We have huge cattle herds in the US so have no need to import BS.
I've asked this before, "Why do you constantly jump in and talk about a country whose systems and methods you disagree with and despise so much?" It doesn't help anything. Could be making things worse, though.
When you consider one of our biggest cultural problems are is narcissism. One should ask, "Does it really help to feed into that illness by making that groups country the center of attention in so many threads?".
I've seen many Aussies and 'Zelanders post in and about the subject of US reparations to the descendants of slaves but have yet to see a thread here about Aussie reparations to the Aborigines for the Lost Generation. What's up with that?
Point here is, you want to have a polite discussion, ok. You want to just bag on a country and its people just "because" or for "reasons" to make you feel better about yourself then take it back down under.
Later,
ff
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/18 07:02:04
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09
If they are too stupid to live, why make them?
In the immortal words of Socrates, I drank what??!
Tau-*****points(You really don't want to know)
2014/08/18 07:08:02
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Arrogant insults hurled at a nations government and its people make you feel superior?
Just remember that while currently in the dumps the US is still the equal to any other nation out there. Not better, never better but it is the equal to its peer nations.
I think the US is an awesome country. Not just the people, the culture, and the practices and just the way you all go about your lives are awesome. A lot of Australians do take on an easy posture of complaining about how much Australia has become like the US, and feth those people. What we've taken from the US has made our country better, and there's a lot more we could still take on to improve out country.
And as you for you guys pulling yourselves up, well you're already doing, and much faster than you give yourselves credit for. And compare that to Europe, who are sliding and still pretending they don't have a serious problem.
Now, that said, that doesn't mean everything in the US is done the best way. There are things you do badly, and one of those things is government. The way elected officials use their powers, the debates you have about who should and shouldn't be elected, the way the various elements of government set about planning the long term direction of the country... well its a really long way short of the standard. One really eye opening account was that Jersey corruption scandal a few years back, the US fellow explaining it to us said that basic elements of government that you would just take for granted anywhere else just weren't even considered by anyone in that case. The idea that the power granted to an elected official also comes with a basic responsibility to society just didn't register - the culture was entirely one of using the position to look after themselves and those who got them there.
Since then I've seen a lot of stuff on US politics, and while the overall picture is much more complex than just what happened in Jersey that one time, there is a consistent trend - Americans in general just don't get the basic processes a government officer should follow.
I've asked this before, "Why do you constantly jump in and talk about a country whose systems and methods you disagree with and despise so much?" It doesn't help anything. Could be making things worse, though.
I happen to be an Americanophile. I like the US, and I like talking about it. This being the internet, we pretty much only talk about the bad stuff, which means my engagement with most US speakers is mostly about the bad stuff in the US.
As an example, the US has this year become the largest producer of oil in the world again, after already becoming the largest producer of natural gas a few years ago. An incredible technical achievement and one that's now flowing through and creating wealth in other countries with similar oil and natural gas deposits, such as my own country. But we don't talk about that, because 'slowly this particular thing is getting better' just isn't a story that humans tend to talk about.
Instead we talk about stuff like Rick Perry's governance. And those typically are negative stories for the US.
I've seen many Aussies and 'Zelanders post in and about the subject of US reparations to the descendants of slaves but have yet to see a thread here about Aussie reparations to the Aborigines for the Lost Generation. What's up with that?
Much as you don't talk for all Americans, I don't talk for Australians, let alone New Zealanders. I can't even do their accent without sounding like I've got a learning difficulty.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/18 08:26:32
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/08/18 12:45:26
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
This thread was the final realization for me that truthiness reigns supreme and that there are people who are so partisan and ideologically blind that there is truly no reason to even attempt to engage them in any kind of argument.
My post count will slow down, but I imagine my blood pressure will improve.
2014/08/18 21:28:38
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
d-usa wrote: This thread was the final realization for me that truthiness reigns supreme and that there are people who are so partisan and ideologically blind that there is truly no reason to even attempt to engage them in any kind of argument.
My post count will slow down, but I imagine my blood pressure will improve.
Eh... really?
I thought I burnt down that bridge during the lively Benghazi/IRS threads.
And YET, you keep coming back!
You're drawn to the seductive allure that is the OT Thunderdome™ that has proven irresistible. Right?
What I find freak'n hysterical is that liberals/Democrats, who are quick to point out that while they're not fans of Governor Perry, that they are appalledby this nakedly political indictment.
I wonder how Perry would do in prison. Not that it will come to that. Rich white politicians can buy their way out, one way or another. The worst case scenario is that he takes a plea deal that ruins his political career but not his life.
2014/08/19 00:03:15
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
LoneLictor wrote: I wonder how Perry would do in prison. Not that it will come to that. Rich politicians can buy their way out, one way or another. The worst case scenario is that he takes a plea deal that ruins his political career but not his life.
Fixed
Let's not involve race in this being we have a touchy one in the Ferguson thread.
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
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2014/08/19 00:30:09
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
LoneLictor wrote: I wonder how Perry would do in prison. Not that it will come to that. Rich white politicians can buy their way out, one way or another. The worst case scenario is that he takes a plea deal that ruins his political career but not his life.
why do you seem to believe he committed a crime?
2014/08/19 03:29:27
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
LoneLictor wrote: I wonder how Perry would do in prison. Not that it will come to that. Rich white politicians can buy their way out, one way or another. The worst case scenario is that he takes a plea deal that ruins his political career but not his life.
He could always be Governor of Illinois.
"Holy Sh*&, you've opened my eyes and changed my mind about this topic, thanks Dakka OT!"
LordofHats wrote: I'm sure he'll manage to spin it into book deals, talk circuits, and political rants far more lucrative than being governor
Has Ollie North still got his gig on FOX News?
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 06:35:12
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2014/08/19 13:14:03
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
I find your lack of faith in The Hair, disturbing.
Historically Travis county DAs are known for political witch hunts. They even tried to go out after Hutchinson and got the judge so mad he empanelled a jury and directed verdict so the DA couldn't drop the case and restart it again.
I don't like Perry. I never voted for him, but these charges are nonsensical.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2014/08/19 21:03:21
Subject: Re:Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
2014/08/19 21:05:39
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Frazzled wrote: I find your lack of faith in The Hair, disturbing.
Historically Travis county DAs are known for political witch hunts. They even tried to go out after Hutchinson and got the judge so mad he empanelled a jury and directed verdict so the DA couldn't drop the case and restart it again.
I don't like Perry. I never voted for him, but these charges are nonsensical.
Do you think he's capable of wearing a Mothers Against Drunk Driving t-shirt for his mugshot?
Live Ork, Be Ork. or D'Ork!
2014/08/19 21:16:40
Subject: Texas Gov. Rick Perry indicted for alleged abuse of power in veto dispute
Frazzled wrote: I find your lack of faith in The Hair, disturbing.
Historically Travis county DAs are known for political witch hunts. They even tried to go out after Hutchinson and got the judge so mad he empanelled a jury and directed verdict so the DA couldn't drop the case and restart it again.
I don't like Perry. I never voted for him, but these charges are nonsensical.
Do you think he's capable of wearing a Mothers Against Drunk Driving t-shirt for his mugshot?
DUDE!!! Gov. Perry face mug T-SHIRTS!!!
Proud Member of the Infidels of OIF/OEF
No longer defending the US Military or US Gov't. Just going to ""**feed into your fears**"" with Duffel Blog Did not fight my way up on top the food chain to become a Vegan...
Warning: Stupid Allergy
Once you pull the pin, Mr. Grenade is no longer your friend
DE 6700
Harlequin 2500
RIP Muhammad Ali.
Jihadin, Scorched Earth 791. Leader of the Pork Eating Crusader. Alpha
Officially elevated by St. God of Yams to the rank of Scholar of the Church of the Children of the Eternal Turtle Pie at 11:42:36 PM 05/01/09 
