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 Psienesis wrote:
So you posit that a new Chapter has some 19 year old kid as the Chapter Master?

Yep. And he's a little angsty about his father, and is constantly worried about weather or not he should have taken that gap year before University, and is worried that his mutant superpowers might get in the way of his studies.

His middle name's probably Horus.

 Psienesis wrote:

The Space Wolves don't permit people to do that to Fenris. Remember, a Space Marine Homeworld is their sovereign holding. They don't (generally speaking) tithe anything to the Imperium, other than recruits for the Chapter that owns the world.

Also, the native Fenrisians are tribal barbarians. They would not get on well on other worlds.

As far as the original SW are concerned... ask the Emperor (specifically, this is a contradiction that GW introduced and has never resolved, but all attempts to create SW successors has failed in mutations and horrific gene-seed issues).

You're missing the point that only a very small percentage of the human population is genetically compatible with the gene-seed. If the candidate isn't compatible (and I mean the farm-stock) the best you can hope for is that it kills them. If it doesn't? Then you end up with a corrupted crop of gene-seed. Sure hope you catch those flaws before you start making Marines out of it....

How many SWs are there? At max 12,000. From one frozen lump of ice in space. Then you can go back to Terra - Let's say they supplied half the Neophytes for the original Legions.

How small can that percentage really be then? Sure, not everyone is, but that's not the bottleneck.

 Melissia wrote:
Keep in mind the rareness of matches for being a Space Marine.

Pick a feral or feudal world. This is only a small number of worlds within the Imperium. The Imperium does not typically recruit from worlds with any level of technology.

Take every person on the world who is within the age of 7-12 at the time you need more Space Marines. This gets rid of most of the population.

Get rid of the unhealthy ones, which is again a large number of them given the poor diet of feral worlders.

Further get rid of half of them. Even if they would otherwise genetically match (brother+sister are far more more genetically compatible than two male neighbors), the Imperium doesn't use women for Space Marines.

Now, put them in brutal gladiatorial fights and other deadly tests, and see which ones survive and are supposedly suited for Space Marines. This gets rid of another large quantity of them.

Of these, only those that are as genetically compatible as family members of the originally modified gene-seed are allowed to become Space Marines.

This is an extremely tiny number of people per planet, and furthermore, this number is taken from the population, never to breed, meaning that every one taken reduces the chances of having more later.

Really, even having a million Space Marines, with the level of attrition they face, is quite a feat given all of these requirements for who can become a Space Marine. There's just layer upon layer upon layer of often arbitrary and illogical "filters".

I don't agree with any of these points. If the SW can keep their "Chapter" effectively 12 times stronger than a normal Chapter... well, see above. I don't buy it.

 Boss Stompa wrote:


Thats what Im getting at, in the original chapter 1 SM is made from 1 SM so mutation is slower, but when creating a new chapter the geneseed is essentialy, intensivly farmed creating many more marines from a smaller genepool increasing the chance of genetic abnormality, like inbreeding I suppose!

This at least starts to touch on the issue I asked Right, the geneseed itself is unstable, but why do Chapter Foundings suffer so much more than SM replenishment? If the fluff said something like SM DNA polymerase was different from human DNA polymerase (made less mistakes) it would be very understandable.

However, that's not how how inbreeding works.

How many SWs are there? At max 12,000. From one frozen lump of ice in space. Then you can go back to Terra - Let's say they supplied half the Neophytes for the original Legions. It cannot be that low.

How small can that percentage really be then? Sure, not everyone is, but that's not the bottleneck.

Not even close to 12,000 SW. There's like 3K of them, unless you get into really stupid math. This is because we're given solid numbers of the second-largest Great Company, which has 200 Battle-Brothers. Even if the largest GC has twice that number, and the remaining 11 had only 1 less Marine, we're left with 2,789 Space Wolves, plus their support staff.

The only way you get 12K SW is if Logan's GC is like 9000 Marines alone... which is ludicrous.

I don't agree with any of these points. If the SW can keep their "Chapter" effectively 12 times stronger than a normal Chapter... well, see above. I don't buy it.

Because you're operating from a false premise. The SW are nowhere near as large as you claim they are.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

This at least starts to touch on the issue I asked Right, the geneseed itself is unstable, but why do Chapter Foundings suffer so much more than SM replenishment? If the fluff said something like SM DNA polymerase was different from human DNA polymerase (made less mistakes) it would be very understandable.

Remember that no actual genetic science is involved in the creation of geneseed or Space Marines from a reader's perspective. GW has never made any attempt to explain, in actual scientific terms, the way geneseed works.

Basically because they can't, genetics don't work in the way that geneseed supposedly works. There's no scientific reason for geneseed to be 100% non-viable in a female candidate (as the sister of a man who becomes a Space Marine will be far closer to him, genetically, than some random stranger from even the same planet)... but it is.

 Psienesis wrote:


Not even close to 12,000 SW. There's like 3K of them, unless you get into really stupid math. This is because we're given solid numbers of the second-largest Great Company, which has 200 Battle-Brothers. Even if the largest GC has twice that number, and the remaining 11 had only 1 less Marine, we're left with 2,789 Space Wolves, plus their support staff.

The only way you get 12K SW is if Logan's GC is like 9000 Marines alone... which is ludicrous.


Because you're operating from a false premise. The SW are nowhere near as large as you claim they are.

Sauce? While they're obviously not at full strength, 3000 seems quite low. However, if a lump of ice can sustain that (and Terra effectively 10 Legions...), genetic incompatibility can't be as low as you suggest.

The consequence was that today, when all the Great Companies assemble under the Great Wolf's banner, the Space Wolves Chapter numbers far, far more than a thousand Astartes and is the largest currently in existence, save perhaps for the Black Templars Chapter, which has an eerily similar disregard for the Codex Astartes; and maintains a structure of autonomous Crusades answering only to an officer known as the High Marshal.

 Psienesis wrote:

Remember that no actual genetic science is involved in the creation of geneseed or Space Marines from a reader's perspective. GW has never made any attempt to explain, in actual scientific terms, the way geneseed works.

Basically because they can't, genetics don't work in the way that geneseed supposedly works. There's no scientific reason for geneseed to be 100% non-viable in a female candidate (as the sister of a man who becomes a Space Marine will be far closer to him, genetically, than some random stranger from even the same planet)... but it is.

I know there's not been a specific one given, but why does the genetic instability supposedly (looking at the numbers) affect the Founding of Chapters so much more than the existing Chapter's recruitment.

Sauce? While they're obviously not at full strength, 3000 seems quite low. However, if a lump of ice can sustain that (and Terra effectively 10 Legions...), genetic incompatibility can't be as low as you suggest.

IA 11 Doom of... whatever the hell it was called, iirc. Might have been C:SW 5E.

Keep in mind that most (none?) Chapters don't do yearly trials for replacements. That happens, in most cases I believe, once a century or so. Which gives a planet a chance to both repopulate (since they lose a number of viable breeders to the trials and again to the Chapter) and, also, helps keep the Chapter somewhat mysterious (as they don't normally move amongst the regular people of their Homeworlds, the Salamanders being an exception).

I know there's not been a specific one given, but why does the genetic instability supposedly (looking at the numbers) affect the Founding of Chapters so much more than the existing Chapter's recruitment.

Because rarely does a Chapter need to replenish 99% of its strength at a single go. With the Scout Company (by whatever name the Chapter calls it) present, most battle-losses can be replaced almost immediately, and then a new raising of, say, 50 viable aspirants takes place to restock the Scout Company to replenish the losses of the next major conflict (losing 1 or 2 Marines doesn't generally require a full restocking of the Scout Company... they probably only go this route if the Scout Company falls to 50% of its strength, or perhaps even less, but this is conjecture).

So what you have here is the Chapter's own apothecaries using the geneseed from its own fallen warriors (in most cases) and, if needed, its own stores to implant into, lets say, 100 candidates. 30 of them die because the science is more ritual than medical procedure. 30 of them die because their young bodies just don't react to the geneseed very well or because one of the additional implanted organs goes wrong and kills them some how. Another 20 survive the surgeries, but die in training. 20 of them survive to receive the Black Carapace and be elevated to the rank of Scout.

In a Founding, you need viable geneseed for 1000 Space Marines, but of every 1000 candidates, 800 of them (on average) die for whatever reason. So, if the averages hold true, you need 5000 viable candidates to build a full, 1000 Marine Chapter. The simple matter is, on this scale, and using geneseed you just took out of the refrigerator, there's more chances for things to go wrong.

Also, you aren't necessarily using people from the same homeworld as the Chapter the geneseed originates from, which may introduce subtle genetic or biochemical differences between geneseed and host. The geneseed the AdMech is using is not left over from the GC or even the Heresy. This is "modern" geneseed collected from the tithes the Chapters have submitted... and this is assuming that the Chapters are being 100% honest that the geneseed they tithe really *is* their geneseed. This is not always the case, however, sometimes being altered or switched or covered up by the Inquisition, for its own purposes, or by the Chapter itself, to hide flaws that the Chapter has become aware of, or because the Chapter has turned Renegade, and is pursuing its own agenda.

 Psienesis wrote:
So you posit that a new Chapter has some 19 year old kid as the Chapter Master?

Which assumes that a Chapter is sent off on whatever task the High Lords set for it as soon as the one thousandth initiate receives his Black Carapace.



Looking at Deathwatch: Rites of Battle as, however you feel about the validity of FFG as a source for background material, it is still the most detailed information about how a Founding might work.

Points that stick out include: 'centuries of planning'; entire Forge Worlds turned over to the production of all the necessary weapons, ammunition, armour, vehicles and war ships; identification of suitable home worlds perhaps even with environmental engineering with the natives, if deemed suitable as a recruitment pool, studied and tested for 'generations'; the fortress monastery built by the Imperium's most accomplished military architects; generations of Imperial servants toil in preparation and finally, 'it is likely to be at least a century' before any new Chapters are ready to take to the field.

I'll copy the whole of the most interesting paragraph as it's worth some analysis: 'Existing Space Marine Chapters might also have a hand in this process, though to what degree varies greatly. Many First Founding Chapters maintain close links with Chapters created using their own gene-seed stocks, and the Chapter Masters might have a hand in planning future foundings. It is said that the Disciples of Caliban, a Dark Angels Successor, were created following the direct appeal of the Supreme Grand Master of the Dark Angels.'

This is the only paragraph which gives a possibility that other Chapter might have some role to play during the Founding process. However it is only a 'might' have a hand which isn't exactly definitive even if you wanted to use it as proof of the 'officer cadre' theory. It also says 'in this process', the process as defined in the proceeding paragraphs doesn't really give credence to the 'officer cadre' theory; a Chapter 'might' identify a suitable world perhaps, it 'might'
have a hand in designing the fortress monastery. Since the 'officer cadre' theory also maintains that a parent Chapter hands over equipment then, you could possibly say that they 'might' produce armaments and the like.

Looking at Forgeworld's Badab War part one and two then the identification of parent Chapters is much more mysterious. Some Chapters claim to be successors to X Chapter, some are unknown, others like the Red Scorpions are noted as having gene-seed so pure as to be unlike any other gene-seed at all. The main exception is with the Sons of Medusa, mainly exiles from the Iron Hands, later joined by similar exiles from Iron Hands successor Chapters due to a schism they are eventually given their own name but the edict by which that was achieved is said to be 'almost unique' and despite protests from the Mechanicus and grave misgivings held by 'numerous' other Chapters.

Taken together these sources more closely describe a process that 'might' see existing Chapters are offering advice at best, maybe training although that isn't really hinted at as the process by which the new Chapters are trained isn't mentioned at all. In any case just looking at Rites of Battle it would seem that a 'new' Chapter is likely to be over a century old by the time it is finally set loose on the galaxy, plenty of time for the Chapter to have identified suitable leaders from amongst its own ranks, to have experienced battle brothers and all with little to no influence from other Chapters, preserving the spirit of the Codex Astartes.



My own theory is that these non-Chaptered Space Marines are all being trained in the Sol System. There are several reasons for this. Firstly we know that Earth and presumably Mars by now, have the facilities to produce Space Marine Power Armour and warships, weapons and ammunition. We know that Mars is the main destination for all tithed gene-seed samples and that they are able to source suitable test-salves to create all the required implants for new Chapters. We know that the Black Ships bring all psykers to Earth for evaluation with possible Astartes recruits being singled out. The Grey Knights are on hand if anything goes wrong and any mass purging is required for freakish mutants. It provides a large pool of warriors to defend the Sol System in the case of an invasion, there being potentially two dozen or more Chapters worth of recruits being trained there at any one time.

 Psienesis wrote:

This at least starts to touch on the issue I asked Right, the geneseed itself is unstable, but why do Chapter Foundings suffer so much more than SM replenishment? If the fluff said something like SM DNA polymerase was different from human DNA polymerase (made less mistakes) it would be very understandable.

Remember that no actual genetic science is involved in the creation of geneseed or Space Marines from a reader's perspective. GW has never made any attempt to explain, in actual scientific terms, the way geneseed works.

Basically because they can't, genetics don't work in the way that geneseed supposedly works. There's no scientific reason for geneseed to be 100% non-viable in a female candidate (as the sister of a man who becomes a Space Marine will be far closer to him, genetically, than some random stranger from even the same planet)... but it is.

According to GW logic, a Geneseed by some "genetic" requirements needs to be implanted into male humans.

This means one of two things (as long as we ignore the fact that descriptions of this is obviously technobabble):

1) The seed needs a Y-chromosone to operate
2) The IOM either prefers balls, or is too scared to give a flamer-infused SoB a better genetic grounding.

The Y-chromosome thing is not really related, as it doesn't (by itself) do anything. There's another... genetic thing, I forget the name of it... that is attached to chromosome #17 that also does the Male/Female determining bit.

There is an identical thing on the X chromosome, too, so the Y chromosome does not, alone, determine sex.

From http://www.isna.org/faq/y_chromosome:

For these 15,000 or more individuals in the US (and who knows how many worldwide), their chromosomes are irrelevant. It is the total complement of their genes along with their life experiences (physical, mental, social) that makes them who they are (or any of us, for that matter). The last time I counted, there were at least 30 genes that have been found to have important roles in the development of sex in either humans or mice. Of these 30 or so genes 3 are located on the X chromosome, 1 on the Y chromosome and the rest are on other chromosomes, called autosomes (on chromosomes 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 17, 19).

So probably #2. The IoM loves its sausagefests. Yearly event on almost every Imperial world (there's 2 or 3 that are all-female... all of them in the Sapphic system.)

I don't have the 7th edition codex but I do have the 5th one with me. Flip to page 17 where it describes Ragnar''s company. I'll quote it:

"The Great Company of Ragnar Blackmane is second only to Logan Grimnar's, boasting almost two hundred battle-hardened warriors"

So technically, if Logan's is double 200, it'd be a max of 2579 marines. And this is with me copying Psi in making it so that Logan is the best possible number (199), Logan is 400, and the rest are all 198 strong. Overall, the army's likely closer to the 1500-2000s, maybe a bit past that.

I think I included the 13th GC in there as well, as they are technically Space Wolves.

 Psienesis wrote:
I think I included the 13th GC in there as well, as they are technically Space Wolves.

Ah, that'd do it. I really avoided them because their only documented course of action was during the 13th black crusade which promptly got retconned out. They're there but only in the eye/warp. Might change if they get a supplement for it later though (even then though, rather unpredictable army)

At any rate, yes, the SW are, at most, between 2000 and 3000 Marines, and that's with liberal estimates to the sizes of the Great Companies.

In truth, the number is probably far lower, as it is unlikely that the GCs in 3rd through 12th place have anywhere near 200 Marines, just as it is unlikely that the Company of the Great Wolf is 400 guys. More likely, he has 250 or so. Some probably have 150, some are probably down to 20 guys and two packs of beat-to-hell wolves, and the rest are somewhere in between.

How big was the Space Wolves as a legion? They must have died in MASSES to go from Legion size of above 80,000+ (since Raven Guard was smallest at 80k, IIRC) to only 2.5k guys. Which is strange cause I thought that only happened to the Salamanders and Raven Guard. The rest at least can say they are only 1000 marines strong because they split into chapters...

TiamatRoar wrote:
How big was the Space Wolves as a legion? They must have died in MASSES to go from Legion size of above 80,000+ (since Raven Guard was smallest at 80k, IIRC) to only 2.5k guys. Which is strange cause I thought that only happened to the Salamanders and Raven Guard. The rest at least can say they are only 1000 marines strong because they split into chapters...

I dunno the VI legion's number at the time of HH, but I believe it is said they are never one of the larger legions. So it's would place their number at around 100,000 - 150,000.

At the current point we don't know what exactly happened to the rest of the 6th Legion, as the Horus Heresy series isn't quite done yet; however, according to Horus Heresy: Collected Visions, sometime during the Siege of Terra, Russ (elsewhere, away from Terra) send an urgent request for the Khan (who was at the time, away from Terra as well) to aid the SW fleet in against an inbound Alpha Legion Fleet, Russ' fleet was "heavily outnumbered", and should the white scars not aid them, "it was likely that the traitors would not be stopped or worse, the Space Wolves' fleet would be destroyed" (Horus Heresy: The Collected Visions, p345). e

The White Scars had to break off from the engagement as Rogal Dorn had already commanded the White Scars the head for Terra immediately, and as Khan's request for an amendment was denied, the WS fleet broke off the engagement and headed straight for the Imperial palace. Russ was ordered to (as relayed by Khan) "draw the enemy as far away from Terra as possible". Since there are no other major engagements around this time (after the Burning of Prospero) the SWs participated in, this is likely the point where SWs suffered major losses (atm).

 ChazSexington wrote:
I don't agree with any of these points. If the SW can keep their "Chapter" effectively 12 times stronger than a normal Chapter... well, see above. I don't buy it.

They can't, so your argument is invalid.

TiamatRoar wrote:
How big was the Space Wolves as a legion? They must have died in MASSES to go from Legion size of above 80,000+ (since Raven Guard was smallest at 80k, IIRC) to only 2.5k guys. Which is strange cause I thought that only happened to the Salamanders and Raven Guard. The rest at least can say they are only 1000 marines strong because they split into chapters...

They also died in droves during the Burning of Prospero. That was hardly a one-sided battle.

But, also, let's not forget that the sizes of the Legions during the HH have changed in recent years (to be 10 times larger than previously stated), but the current size of the Chapters has not changed to explain the loss of so many lives in the intervening 10,000 years. As a form of compromise, we can only assume that most of the Legions suffered crippling casualties throughout the HH, which left between 3 and 10K Marines in each Legion (on the average) at the end of the Heresy to then split into Chapters.

The fluff clearly states that Sgt Telion has been seconded to other Chapters to train Scouts so it would come as no shock to me that new foundings are assisted by officers from their predecessor chapters.

How could a chapter form without officers? Scouts can't train themselves surely? There must be Apothecaries present to implant the gene seed at a bare minimum.

 Melissia wrote:

 ChazSexington wrote:
I don't agree with any of these points. If the SW can keep their "Chapter" effectively 12 times stronger than a normal Chapter... well, see above. I don't buy it.

They can't, so your argument is invalid.

Not quite - A lump of ice can keep the SWs combat operational. And how big are the Black Templars? 6K? And they are a Crusading Chapter.

With scores of worlds to draw recruits from.

Black Templars draw from many more worlds than other chapters do. Their situation is not comparable to the situation of the average chapter. and even if every chapter was like the Black Templars, there would still only be 6 million space marines, nowhere near enough to defend the Imperium.

 throwoff wrote:
The fluff clearly states that Sgt Telion has been seconded to other Chapters to train Scouts so it would come as no shock to me that new foundings are assisted by officers from their predecessor chapters.

How could a chapter form without officers? Scouts can't train themselves surely? There must be Apothecaries present to implant the gene seed at a bare minimum.

A newly founded Chapter would have officers, they have at least a century to come to the fore and earn their positions within the Chapter. Telion may well help with training in other Chapters but he is till an Ultramarine and returns to his own Chapter, he doesn't go off to become another Chapter's officer. A similar thing might happen during a founding.

Since the Chapter is created from the ground up, with the Mechanicus implanting gene-seed into test-slaves for decades prior to the first initiate being inducted it seems likely that apothecaries are trained in the required procedures by the Mechanicus during that century or more it takes for the Chapter to become fully operational.

A newly founded Chapter would have officers, they have at least a century to come to the fore and earn their positions within the Chapter. Telion may well help with training in other Chapters but he is till an Ultramarine and returns to his own Chapter, he doesn't go off to become another Chapter's officer. A similar thing might happen during a founding.

How? How would they have a century as Scouts without a pre-existing officer's corps to train them? While they do have additional surgeries and things to activate/enhance the command/leader aspect of a Space Marine's mind, someone with experience has to be there to judge them worthy of that advancement in the first place.

Most of that first century is spent as Scouts, and at the end of that, if you're making one of these guys the new Chapter Master, that is the equivalent of having some 19 year old kid, fresh out of Basic, being immediately promoted to General.

 Gogsnik wrote:

 throwoff wrote:
The fluff clearly states that Sgt Telion has been seconded to other Chapters to train Scouts so it would come as no shock to me that new foundings are assisted by officers from their predecessor chapters.

How could a chapter form without officers? Scouts can't train themselves surely? There must be Apothecaries present to implant the gene seed at a bare minimum.

A newly founded Chapter would have officers, they have at least a century to come to the fore and earn their positions within the Chapter. Telion may well help with training in other Chapters but he is till an Ultramarine and returns to his own Chapter, he doesn't go off to become another Chapter's officer. A similar thing might happen during a founding.

Since the Chapter is created from the ground up, with the Mechanicus implanting gene-seed into test-slaves for decades prior to the first initiate being inducted it seems likely that apothecaries are trained in the required procedures by the Mechanicus during that century or more it takes for the Chapter to become fully operational.

Thats more what I was getting at RE Telion, in the same way some are seconded to the Deathwatch I am sure some officers must take on duties of training a new founding from time to time.

 ChazSexington wrote:
I've tried figuring it out, but I simply can't. I get the logistical aspect, but not the genetic stability issue. Does anyone care to explain?

Alpha Legion sleepers. That is all.

Well, yes, but, then again, everyone involved in this process is Alpharius, so we can discard "Alpha Legion Plot" as a cause, since the number of Alpharii involved basically cancel each other out.

 Psienesis wrote:

A newly founded Chapter would have officers, they have at least a century to come to the fore and earn their positions within the Chapter. Telion may well help with training in other Chapters but he is till an Ultramarine and returns to his own Chapter, he doesn't go off to become another Chapter's officer. A similar thing might happen during a founding.

How? How would they have a century as Scouts without a pre-existing officer's corps to train them? While they do have additional surgeries and things to activate/enhance the command/leader aspect of a Space Marine's mind, someone with experience has to be there to judge them worthy of that advancement in the first place.

Most of that first century is spent as Scouts, and at the end of that, if you're making one of these guys the new Chapter Master, that is the equivalent of having some 19 year old kid, fresh out of Basic, being immediately promoted to General.

Seriously?

There is no information, absolutely zero, on how Space Marines in a new Founding are trained or who finds them worthy to be sent on their way.

If the Imperium's most accomplished military architects can be sent to some specially earmarked world to build a fortress monastery maybe the Imperium's most accomplished military generals are called upon to oversee the new Chapters; it's at least as equally plausible that the Administratum can find old generals to oversee training and decide when the Chapters are ready in a manner that suits the Imperium and the High Lords as it is that a cadre of officers are sent by another Chapter. It seems much less likely to me that a Chapter is basically given a thousand Marines to play around with and also much less likely that any Chapter would willingly give away its officers even if the Imperium ignored the Codex Astartes.

I see you passed over my earlier post where I detailed IA 9 and 10 describing the relationship with successor Chapters. Where the predecessor was even known, which was not always, there was no indication of most of them having much to do with their successors at all. Let's take the Fire Hawks as an example. They claim antecedence from the Ultramarines but gene-samples for the Fire Hawks held in the archives of the Adeptus Terra say otherwise and the Ultramarines have never acknowledged a link. If, as you claim, "You get a solid core of veterans from the parent-Chapter from which the geneseed came from (in most cases)" then a situation like this should be unlikely.

Look at the Marines Errant for an opposite example. Their predecessors are the Eagle Warriors but it is noted that, '...why the Eagle Warriors in particular were singled out for the honour of a 'named' founding being drawn from their ranks at this time remains lost to posterity'; in this instance the Imperium even bothering to record that the Eagle Warrior gene-seed was specifically used in the creation of the Marines Errant is unusual but we are to believe that in actual fact, Chapters send a core of veterans, relics, armour and wargear and irregardless of the bonds of leadership and trust built up in the Chapter during its creation these outsiders just walk in and take over 'in most cases'?

As for this comment: 'Most of that first century is spent as Scouts, and at the end of that, if you're making one of these guys the new Chapter Master, that is the equivalent of having some 19 year old kid, fresh out of Basic, being immediately promoted to General.' that is absolute and total nonsense.

They spend a century as scouts? Nonsense and you have no evidence for this. Even the idea that these century or more old Astartes are somehow kept as scouts for all that time is ridiculous, even more so the idea that any one of them are equivalent to a nineteen year old fresh out of basic.

EDIT: Finally found the important part that gives credence to the 'officer cadre', the only one I am aware of. The Fire Angels have no named predecessor instead being a Chapter 'from whole cloth', instead using gene-stock issue (not too sure what that actually means) and they had a command and training structure drawn from 'several' Ultramarine successor Chapters although there is no indication these Chapters' gene-seed was used.