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 Hordini wrote:

 Peregrine wrote:

 Void__Dragon wrote:
It's easy to bash religion, why not try to find something good it's done as well?

List of things that have been done by religion that couldn't have been done by secular groups or ideologies:

{empty space}

List of things actually done by religion that wasn't actually done by secular groups or ideologies:

Preserved the largest amount of knowledge during the Dark Ages, and founded universities and places of learning that still exist today, to include the oldest universities on the planet.

Encouraged and provided funding for all all kinds of architects, artists, and musicians whose works are still famous and influential today.

Provided medical care and trained physicians. Aided the poor, the sick, and travelers in large numbers.

Furthered the study of mathematics, particularly Algebra, as well as the study of astronomy.

Secular groups that existed at the time:

 Ahtman wrote:


Don't be that guy. No one likes that guy, even other atheists. No one likes a zealot with an agenda.

On this note, can we just go ahead and put the bullet in the brain of this thread that it's so desperately aching for?

 Hordini wrote:
List of things actually done by religion that wasn't actually done by secular groups or ideologies:

You missed the key part of that statement you quoted: things that couldn't have been done by non-religious groups. Yes, religion did do some good things in an era when all power was held either by explicitly religious groups or groups that had to go along with religion to keep their power. But those things could also have been done by secular groups if they had held the majority of power back then. If you set aside examples that depend entirely on who was in charge at a particular time and look only at things where religion is necessary to accomplish a desired outcome then the list disappears entirely.

Relapse wrote:
Neither do I claim Nazism ever existed. What gives you the idea that I do?

I never did. I said that you're doing the equivalent of claiming that Nazism doesn't exist because it produces evil.

In the end, it boils down to this quote of the scriptures by Newel B. Stevenson:

But why would anyone who doesn't already believe in your religion think that those quotes have any value at all? I could quote from lots of different works of fiction and it would be no different. In fact, let me quote from the Book of Peregrinism:

"Accept Peregrine as your god. There is no other god but Peregrine, and heretics will burn in hell. This is 100% true".

There, I just produced an argument that is exactly as convincing as your quotes.

In the end, you have to be willing to honestly seek for your answers by questioning not only secularists but spiritual authorities, study scripture, ponder it closely, pray about what you seek, and open yourself to the possibility of the truth of God's existence and the fact that you are loved and a sacrifice was made on your behalf.

Essentially what you're arguing here is that to believe in god you first have to decide to believe in god and then go looking for evidence to support the conclusion that you already made. The fact that you have to resort to this kind of approach should be pretty convincing proof that there is no credible argument for god.

No, you have to be willing to have an open mind, like a true scientist and be willing to experiment with the concept.

 Peregrine wrote:

 Hordini wrote:
List of things actually done by religion that wasn't actually done by secular groups or ideologies:

You missed the key part of that statement you quoted: things that couldn't have been done by non-religious groups. Yes, religion did do some good things in an era when all power was held either by explicitly religious groups or groups that had to go along with religion to keep their power. But those things could also have been done by secular groups if they had held the majority of power back then. If you set aside examples that depend entirely on who was in charge at a particular time and look only at things where religion is necessary to accomplish a desired outcome then the list disappears entirely.

I didn't miss anything. The difference is I'm talking about things that actually happened (that is, reality) rather than things that theoretically could have happened but didn't.

Peregrine wrote:

But I want to damage faith. I want to destroy it utterly and would be absolutely happy if something I said caused someone to abandon their religion.

First, The fact you seem unable to separate "faith" from "religion" speaks volumes as to your comprehension of the subject.

Second, If something you said caused someone to abandon their belief then you would have done them a favour by showing them that they had dogma and doctrine, not faith.


Finally, Do yourself a favour and practice what you preach. Listen to yourself and then abandon your religion of Atheism. This way everybody wins.

Later,
ff

Peregrine wrote:

But I want to damage faith. I want to destroy it utterly and would be absolutely happy if something I said caused someone to abandon their religion.

I pity you. You are risking eternal damnation because of your own petty and mortal spite.

 focusedfire wrote:

Finally, Dp yourself a favour and practice what you preach. Listen to yourself and then abandon your religion of Atheism. This way everybody wins.

Later,
ff

Atheism is not a religion.

jamesk1973 wrote:
I pity you. You are risking eternal damnation because of your own petty and mortal spite.

And you're risking eternal damnation by not believing in Peregrinism. Your risk is just as big as mine, but you seem to be living your life just fine without worrying too much about it. Perhaps the same is true for me?

Relapse wrote:
No, you have to be willing to have an open mind, like a true scientist and be willing to experiment with the concept.

You're confusing "I've considered the argument for god and found it severely lacking" with "I refuse to consider it".

jamesk1973 wrote:

Peregrine wrote:

But I want to damage faith. I want to destroy it utterly and would be absolutely happy if something I said caused someone to abandon their religion.

I pity you. You are risking eternal damnation because of your own petty and mortal spite.

Well, apparently whenever I eat a BLT I'm damned too. So I wouldn't really take your threat too seriously.

 Peregrine wrote:

jamesk1973 wrote:
I pity you. You are risking eternal damnation because of your own petty and mortal spite.

And you're risking eternal damnation by not believing in Peregrinism. Your risk is just as big as mine, but you seem to be living your life just fine without worrying too much about it. Perhaps the same is true for me?

Relapse wrote:
No, you have to be willing to have an open mind, like a true scientist and be willing to experiment with the concept.

You're confusing "I've considered the argument for god and found it severely lacking" with "I refuse to consider it".

What was the nature of your consideration?

 sebster wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He got his son back though, and he knew he was always going to get his son back.

You want to talk about amazing sacrifice, think about the guy who gives up his life for another person not knowing if there's anything for him on the other side.

This has always bothered me about the story of Jesus. Being an earthly incarnation of God, and fully aware of how he'd ascend, he never had to suffer the despair and hopelessness that any actual person would have when they're forced to face the reality and finality of their own death. For him, it would simply be part of a process, with no value as a 'sacrifice.'
It could be argued that it's more about the pain of death, rather than death itself, but even in that case, Jesus would have hope to carry him through. Many others would have suffered similar fates to him back in that era, but they'd have none of the hope that Jesus would have. In that sense, he could never truly despair in the way a real person could.

 Fafnir wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He got his son back though, and he knew he was always going to get his son back.

You want to talk about amazing sacrifice, think about the guy who gives up his life for another person not knowing if there's anything for him on the other side.

This has always bothered me about the story of Jesus. Being an earthly incarnation of God, and fully aware of how he'd ascend, he never had to suffer the despair and hopelessness that any actual person would have when they're forced to face the reality and finality of their own death. For him, it would simply be part of a process, with no value as a 'sacrifice.'
It could be argued that it's more about the pain of death, rather than death itself, but even in that case, Jesus would have hope to carry him through. Many others would have suffered similar fates to him back in that era, but they'd have none of the hope that Jesus would have.

Also the whole "Jesus is also God who is also a ghost thing".

 Krellnus wrote:

 focusedfire wrote:

Finally, Dp yourself a favour and practice what you preach. Listen to yourself and then abandon your religion of Atheism. This way everybody wins.

Later,
ff

Atheism is not a religion.

It is if one is a fundamentalist who is devout in his belief. Which Peregrine has admitted to.

Also, while the come be an atheist websites say no to the idea the 3rd &4th definitions of the word religion says yes, atheism can be considered a religion.

Later,
ff

Relapse wrote:
What was the nature of your consideration?

I weighed the evidence for and against, including the best arguments the religious side could come up with, and every one of them was severely lacking. And so I tossed religion on the pile of useless myths along with things like 9/11 conspiracies or mind control in the chemtrails.

 Fafnir wrote:

 sebster wrote:

 MordorMiniatures wrote:
John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

He got his son back though, and he knew he was always going to get his son back.

You want to talk about amazing sacrifice, think about the guy who gives up his life for another person not knowing if there's anything for him on the other side.

This has always bothered me about the story of Jesus. Being an earthly incarnation of God, and fully aware of how he'd ascend, he never had to suffer the despair and hopelessness that any actual person would have when they're forced to face the reality and finality of their own death. For him, it would simply be part of a process, with no value as a 'sacrifice.'
It could be argued that it's more about the pain of death, rather than death itself, but even in that case, Jesus would have hope to carry him through. Many others would have suffered similar fates to him back in that era, but they'd have none of the hope that Jesus would have. In that sense, he could never truly despair in the way a real person could.

It was not easy for Christ, though. He took upon himself every pain, mental and physical anyone has sufferedas well as the burden of every sin that was and will be committed. It was so intense for him in Gethsemane, that he sweated blood.

It is talked of in Luke 22, 40-46

Jesus prayed that he wouldn't have to go through the agonies awaiting, but finished by saying not his will, but God's be done.

Absolute faith in the Scientific Method is no better than absolute faith in Religion; thinking one is in competition with the other seems to show a gross misunderstanding of both.

 Ciciro wrote:


Also the whole "Jesus is also God who is also a ghost thing".

This is something my religion differs from some others on. We believe that God, Jesus, and the Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

Here are the Articles of Faith for the LDS religion:

1 We believe in God, the Eternal Father, and in His Son, Jesus Christ, and in the Holy Ghost.

2 We believe that men will be punished for their own sins, and not for Adam’s transgression.

3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

4 We believe that the first principles and ordinances of the Gospel are: first, Faith in the Lord Jesus Christ; second, Repentance; third, Baptism by immersion for the remission of sins; fourth, Laying on of hands for the gift of the Holy Ghost.

5 We believe that a man must be called of God, by prophecy, and by the laying on of hands by those who are in authority, to preach the Gospel and administer in the ordinances thereof.

6 We believe in the same organization that existed in the Primitive Church, namely, apostles, prophets, pastors, teachers, evangelists, and so forth.

7 We believe in the gift of tongues, prophecy, revelation, visions, healing, interpretation of tongues, and so forth.

8 We believe the Bible to be the word of God as far as it is translated correctly; we also believe the Book of Mormon to be the word of God.

9 We believe all that God has revealed, all that He does now reveal, and we believe that He will yet reveal many great and important things pertaining to the Kingdom of God.

10 We believe in the literal gathering of Israel and in the restoration of the Ten Tribes; that Zion (the New Jerusalem) will be built upon the American continent; that Christ will reign personally upon the earth; and, that the earth will be renewed and receive its paradisiacal glory.

11 We claim the privilege of worshiping Almighty God according to the dictates of our own conscience, and allow all men the same privilege, let them worship how, where, or what they may.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.


Joseph Smith.

Fafnir wrote:

This has always bothered me about the story of Jesus. Being an earthly incarnation of God, and fully aware of how he'd ascend, he never had to suffer the despair and hopelessness that any actual person would have when they're forced to face the reality and finality of their own death. For him, it would simply be part of a process, with no value as a 'sacrifice.'
It could be argued that it's more about the pain of death, rather than death itself, but even in that case, Jesus would have hope to carry him through. Many others would have suffered similar fates to him back in that era, but they'd have none of the hope that Jesus would have. In that sense, he could never truly despair in the way a real person could.

This never gave me any trouble.

As I understand it, the christian saviour(the one incorrectly called Jesus) was 100% human. As such he felt temptation, doubt and fear just as any other human would.
This is why he prayed to the lord to let the burden be lifted from him.

I mean yeah, he is purported to have pulled off miracles and talked to Elijah and Moses. But I don't belive that he was ever given any proof that he would ascend. Not like he got to talk to John after the beheading to find put if the heaven thing was really worth the sacrifice.

Later,
ff

This thread is reminding me of those really bad dating commercials.

"Would you worship me? I'D worship me...."


Anyone else here a Transhumanist? Metal Limbs are too awesome to ignore.

This thread would be more suitable for a philosophy forum on the occasion of Easter.