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trexmeyer wrote: Calling someone attractive isn't sexist. You could say it is objectifying and rude, but it isn't sexist.
Objectification meets the classic definition of discrimination. By definition to objectify someone is to deny them human agency, i.e. discriminatory, i.e. objectification of women is sexist.
trexmeyer wrote: That's a very big leap from "She's pretty/she's cute" to "I have no respect for her as a human being and would like to plow her green acres."
No one is pretending to be ignorant that sexism, much like most other things, happens in degrees. You seem to be fixated on only the most extreme examples as a way of dismissing any less severe ones.
daedalus wrote: So is it wrong to feel attracted to someone, or it just wrong to say it?
It's wrong to feel attracted to someone. If you do, you should set your shower to freezing, get in, and use a plunger handle to tuck in your bad parts while you think about how bad you are.
This message was edited 2 times. Last update was at 2014/08/19 16:45:31
lord_blackfang wrote: Respect to the guy who subscribed just to post a massive ASCII dong in the chat and immediately get banned.
Flinty wrote: The benefit of slate is that its.actually a.rock with rock like properties. The downside is that it's a rock
daedalus wrote: So is it wrong to think someone is attractive, or it just wrong to say it?
Neither... It only becomes wrong if you say it in an objective manner..."I'd tap that", "dat ass" (the phrases that I used in a prior post) the key distinction is that, if you are thinking, "Damn, she's beautiful" you are acknowledging in your mind that she is attractive to you. If you finish that thought with "I'd definitely hit that" then you have crossed from thinking someone is attractive to objectifying that person. And obviously, there are some people who actually have no brain/tongue filter, and just say exactly what they think, as they think it.
I've never understood why the right to not be offended over-rides the right to free expression of people who like to talk about sex/women's bodies. I can understand if it's in a place where such talk would not ordinarily be socially justified, but generally speaking all I can is quote Stephen Fry -
It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fething what."
As I say though, social norms must still be adhered to. If I was talking to someone who I know plays women's rugby I probably wouldn't say something offensive about women's rugby for example.
I wouldn't even say that finishing one phrase with the other is necessarily objectifying. it is possible to recognize a woman as beautiful and someone you'd like to be with while recognizing that she is a person fully free and able to reject any such advances without being reduced as a person for it. I think most people unconsciously recognize this, they probably just don't actively think about it that much.
Like numerous people in this thread have said; context matters.
You just said calling someone attractive is sexist because any form of objectification meets the criteria for discrimination.
I claimed objectification is discriminatory, therefore sexist. I never claimed the statement "you're attractive" is an objectifying statement. You chose in your post to distinguish objectification from sexism. That's what I was responding to, not the preceding sentence.
This message was edited 3 times. Last update was at 2014/08/19 16:59:07
Ouze wrote:
It's wrong to feel attracted to someone. If you do, you should set your shower to freezing, get in, and use a plunger handle to tuck in your bad parts while you think about how bad you are.
Okay, I just wanted to make sure I was still doing the proper thing.
Ensis Ferrae wrote:
Neither... It only becomes wrong if you say it in an objective manner..."I'd tap that", "dat ass" (the phrases that I used in a prior post) the key distinction is that, if you are thinking, "Damn, she's beautiful" you are acknowledging in your mind that she is attractive to you. If you finish that thought with "I'd definitely hit that" then you have crossed from thinking someone is attractive to objectifying that person. And obviously, there are some people who actually have no brain/tongue filter, and just say exactly what they think, as they think it.
I agree with you entirely. My question was mostly aimed at LordOfHats and others who think that way.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 16:56:34
@OP, its apparent from almost any "Comments" section that many people see the internet as a venue to express their inner chimpanzee without much fear of reprisal.
I think behind most of the more extreme forms of sexism on the internet is a deep-seated hatred towards women caused by either the inability to find a partner (rejection by women), or some trauma caused by a female earlier in life (projection of that trauma as being caused by all women).
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 17:04:42
KommissarKarl wrote: I've never understood why the right to not be offended over-rides the right to free expression of people who like to talk about sex/women's bodies. I can understand if it's in a place where such talk would not ordinarily be socially justified, but generally speaking all I can is quote Stephen Fry -
It's now very common to hear people say, 'I'm rather offended by that.' As if that gives them certain rights. It's actually nothing more... than a whine. 'I find that offensive.' It has no meaning; it has no purpose; it has no reason to be respected as a phrase. 'I am offended by that.' Well, so fething what."
As I say though, social norms must still be adhered to. If I was talking to someone who I know plays women's rugby I probably wouldn't say something offensive about women's rugby for example.
Another problem is that whether or not it is perceived as being sexist or offensive depends on the source. When an attractive guy compliments a woman she usually takes it as just that, a compliment. When an ugly guy does the same thing he's being a "creeper."
"Objectification" means reducing anyone to a single thing. I could objectify someone to his / her intellect as well.
Saying that someone is looking good is not objectification. Far from it. It merely means that you value one trait. It does NOT mean that you do not value all other aspects.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 17:14:52
"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
It shows some measure of respect yet the word "plaything" gives a different spin.
Another neat one:
Stupid as a man, say the women: cowardly as a woman, say the men. Stupidity in a woman is unwomanly.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Sexism really boils down to stereotyping, discrimination, applying attributes in broad strokes to a large and varied population.
Jury still seems to be out on what is an "inherent" nature due to predisposition by biology vs. learned cultural behaviors.
The only method that seems to be acceptable is a case by case basis witnessed behavior rather than pre-conceived model.
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
It shows some measure of respect yet the word "plaything" gives a different spin.
Another neat one:
Stupid as a man, say the women: cowardly as a woman, say the men. Stupidity in a woman is unwomanly.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Sexism really boils down to stereotyping, discrimination, applying attributes in broad strokes to a large and varied population.
Jury still seems to be out on what is an "inherent" nature due to predisposition by biology vs. learned cultural behaviors.
The only method that seems to be acceptable is a case by case basis witnessed behavior rather than pre-conceived model.
Nietzsche was a horrible sexist from a modern Western persepctive. He felt that women must conform to his concept of femininity in order to be true women.
I'd have to look it up, but I distinclty remember he had much worse things to say about women in his writings.
Here are some key quotes:
"Woman has much reason for shame; so much pedantry, superficiality, schoolmarmishness, petty presumption, petty licentiousness and immodesty lies concealed in woman."
"What inspires respect for woman, and often enough even fear, is her nature, which is more “natural” than man’s, the genuine, cunning suppleness of a beast of prey, the tiger’s claw under the glove, the naiveté of her egoism, her uneducability and inner wildness, the incomprehensibility, scope, and movement of her desires and virtues."
"Compare man and woman on the whole, one may say: woman would not have the genius for finery if she did not have an instinct for a secondary role."
"The perfect woman. The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare."
"Finally: woman! One-half of mankind is weak, typically sick, changeable, inconstant... she needs a religion of weakness that glorifies being weak, loving, and being humble as divine: or better, she makes the strong weak--she rules when she succeeds in overcoming the strong... Woman has always conspired with the types of decadence, the priests, against the "powerful", the "strong", the men"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 17:24:41
jasper76 wrote: Nietzsche was a horrible sexist from a modern Western persepctive. He felt that women must conform to his concept of femininity in order to be true women.
I'd have to look it up, but I distinclty remember he had much worse things to say about women in his writings.
Here are some key quotes:...<snip>
Many of his works were intentionally controversial to provoke thought, he was not exactly delicate in presenting his philosophies.
See this link, it points to what I said earlier: judge a person on a case by case basis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friedrich_Nietzsche's_views_on_women He would probably find this very discussion pointless.
I just love his statement "Women are god's second mistake" you think HEY! wait a minute...
For a person of that time period there are some very interesting viewpoints... think context.
Please don't post images like this on Dakka.
Reds8n
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/20 08:42:37
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
"The true man wants two things: danger and play. For that reason he wants woman, as the most dangerous plaything."
- Friedrich Nietzsche
It shows some measure of respect yet the word "plaything" gives a different spin.
Another neat one:
Stupid as a man, say the women: cowardly as a woman, say the men. Stupidity in a woman is unwomanly.
- Friedrich Nietzsche
Sexism really boils down to stereotyping, discrimination, applying attributes in broad strokes to a large and varied population.
Jury still seems to be out on what is an "inherent" nature due to predisposition by biology vs. learned cultural behaviors.
The only method that seems to be acceptable is a case by case basis witnessed behavior rather than pre-conceived model.
Nietzsche was a horrible sexist from a modern Western persepctive. He felt that women must conform to his concept of femininity in order to be true women.
I'd have to look it up, but I distinclty remember he had much worse things to say about women in his writings.
Here are some key quotes:
"Woman has much reason for shame; so much pedantry, superficiality, schoolmarmishness, petty presumption, petty licentiousness and immodesty lies concealed in woman."
"What inspires respect for woman, and often enough even fear, is her nature, which is more “natural” than man’s, the genuine, cunning suppleness of a beast of prey, the tiger’s claw under the glove, the naiveté of her egoism, her uneducability and inner wildness, the incomprehensibility, scope, and movement of her desires and virtues."
"Compare man and woman on the whole, one may say: woman would not have the genius for finery if she did not have an instinct for a secondary role."
"The perfect woman. The perfect woman is a higher type of human than the perfect man, and also something much more rare."
"Finally: woman! One-half of mankind is weak, typically sick, changeable, inconstant... she needs a religion of weakness that glorifies being weak, loving, and being humble as divine: or better, she makes the strong weak--she rules when she succeeds in overcoming the strong... Woman has always conspired with the types of decadence, the priests, against the "powerful", the "strong", the men"
Sounds like Nietsche was unlucky with the ladies...
"That which does not destroy us, makes us stronger."
-Nietsche.
"He who practices his dance moves, gets the girl. He who doesn't, whines lilke a little nietsche boy."
-Frazzled.
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
"That which does not kill you will make you wish it had."
-Talizvar
He did have something on dance:
"We should consider every day lost on which we have not danced at least once. And we should call every truth false which was not accompanied by at least one laugh.
-Friedrich Nietzsche
"If you can dance and not care who is looking, you are doing it right."
-Talizvar
Gosh, darn, on-topic: at least it appears it is important to "get the girl", sounding terribly object oriented again.
Convince the girl you are a lot of fun to be around and you are sure you will respect her mind once you get to know her but in the meantime "shake that body!!!!"
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2014/08/19 21:11:11
A revolution is an idea which has found its bayonets.
Napoleon Bonaparte
"Two things are infinite: the universe and the ability of OT to go...OT. I like bacon." - Einstein
Automatically Appended Next Post: To get a bit back on topic again:
I recently got send some really interesting stuff about a giant --Language!--that's currently going on: Zoe Quinn. She supposedly who...slept with 5 guys to get positive reviews for her game (Depression Quest) and shut critics down. She allegedly abused YouTube's copyright claim system to shut critical videos down. I just read into this and want to get a closer look before making a new thread on it, but it really looks...bad.
Relevant to the thread because she claimed to be in favor of feminism. If the aforementioned bears truth, then she ashames all women in the gaming business.
It is confirmed, however, that she slept with someone else despite being married, so she's a s*** anyway.
Here's Total Biscuit's reponse to it, which seems very reasonable to me:
Relevant to the thread because she claimed to be in favor of feminism.
There is a particular set of people who believe that the ability to enjoy your sexuality in a means that you wish regardless of being against the grain of the constraints of society is empowering. It represents their own empowerment over men.
I don't really have a strong opinion over it one way or the other. Honestly, it makes more sense to me than the "burkas are empowering" thing does. At this point though, I'm close to giving up on trying to understand people, and just nodding and smiling politely at whatever comes my way.
