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LOL, so true. Especially in the heyday of assault oriented armies. I'm not saying it wasnt broken.
Just something to remind players not liking it nowadays that it's been "worse". I honestly dont think its bad now.

 EVIL INC wrote:
LOL, so true. Especially in the heyday of assault oriented armies. I'm not saying it wasnt broken.
Just something to remind players not liking it nowadays that it's been "worse". I honestly dont think its bad now.

It hasn't been 'worse' though. 2nd ed Overwatch wasn't unbalanced... it just promoted static play.

To many here, that IS worse lol. Thats the problem of talking ut such a subjective matter. Everyone will have a different opinion.
At a time when armies were ure assault oriented, it was a rare player who was about to use it effectively.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

My experience is that overwatch can reliably kill a third of a squad. This really hurts wyches where the simple act of getting intact units to the enemy lines is enough of a herculean challenge without scumbag helldrakes and massed shooting wiping you out. So to have, say, 10 wyches charge a squad of chaos marines, a hugely risky proposition anyway I'll just pint out and then have one flamer kill three of them and another 2 to lucky bolt rounds really kills the units effectiveness. Plus, people obviously start taking more flamers if their effectiveness gets better.

The fact wyches don't get their inv save on overwatch is just stupid. They can dodge a bolt pistol to the face but can't dodge one fired a few metres away...

Well there's your problem. You playing wyches, one of the worst assault units in the game (especially now that they lost haywire grenades).

Overwatch is not a problem, your unit is.

Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Good to see that after being away from Dakka for 2+ months absolutely nothing has changed. Front page looks exactly like I'd expect. Good job everybody, carry on.

Possibly something of an aside, but I dislike is the snapshot mechanic in general.

Aside from feeling a bit out of place in a sci-fi game (as opposed to, I don't know, a celebrating-cowboy simulator), it seems like a bad mechanic with regard to special/heavy weapons.

I say this because, unlike most basic weapons, these weapons generally can't be taken in the numbers required to balance out the odds. So, you end up with a situation where a few dice rolls can make a lot of difference, which always seems dubious to me.

I have to disagree... The addition of snapshots was one of the few 6th ed changes that I liked the idea of. I just don't like the way it was applied. Excluding Blast and Template weapons from firing as snapshots skewed the effectiveness of all the heavy weapon options. Suddenly, my plasma cannon dread was an even worse option than he had been to begin with, and swapping it back to an assault cannon was just a no-brainer.

 insaniak wrote:
I have to disagree... The addition of snapshots was one of the few 6th ed changes that I liked the idea of. I just don't like the way it was applied. Excluding Blast and Template weapons from firing as snapshots skewed the effectiveness of all the heavy weapon options. Suddenly, my plasma cannon dread was an even worse option than he had been to begin with, and swapping it back to an assault cannon was just a no-brainer.

I never understood why Blast weapons were excluded from Snap Snots, as BS can make a difference in their accuracy. Why not jave Bl;asts be able to Snap Fire but always scatter the full 2D6" at BS1?

I have long suggested it was because GW wanted to sell flyers out the bejeebus, so made them unhittable by the power weapons like Demolisher Cannons, Orbital Bombardment, or those random "Kill everything" weapons like Vortex Missiles or old SAG.

 Deadshot wrote:

I never understood why Blast weapons were excluded from Snap Snots, as BS can make a difference in their accuracy. Why not jave Bl;asts be able to Snap Fire but always scatter the full 2D6" at BS1?

I have long suggested it was because GW wanted to sell flyers out the bejeebus, so made them unhittable by the power weapons like Demolisher Cannons, Orbital Bombardment, or those random "Kill everything" weapons like Vortex Missiles or old SAG.

This was my thought too. But then, I also find it strange that you can't snapshot flamers, except on overwatch. Is it because they don't use BS? Because, that shouldn't be a reason to deny them snapshots - it should be a reason to find a better mechanic. It gets even sillier with Invisibility - where you know roughly where the invisible unit is, yet can't fire blasts or flamers at it. You know, the best possible weapons for shooting at a unit you can't see.

Regardless, in terms of blasts, I find it really irritating that they've started turning normal weapons into blast weapons - even when it goes against their main purpose. e.g. in the IG book, there's a small-blast Multi-Melta and a small-blast Autocannon. Why? Is it just so they can't make snapshots or affect fliers? Because, that's the only reason I can think of.

IIRC the small blast Melta is the Banewolf's Melta Cannon? Or is it the Devil Dog?

Either way, that was there in the last Codex too, which was released at the start of 5th Ed.

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Sisters of Battle have to disagree with that part about more armor adding to one's chances of surviving a battle.

Also, Star Wars Stormtroopers. I don't think their armor stops anything. It doesn't even seem to be effective in repelling three-feet-tall bear-people who are hitting them with rocks. Also, their light walkers explode when hit by two logs from opposite sides.

 Pouncey wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Sisters of Battle have to disagree with that part about more armor adding to one's chances of surviving a battle.

Given how bad Repentia are, I doubt it.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Sisters of Battle have to disagree with that part about more armor adding to one's chances of surviving a battle.

Given how bad Repentia are, I doubt it.

Repentia have less armor than Wyches. They don't even get an armor save.

 Pouncey wrote:


Also, Star Wars Stormtroopers. I don't think their armor stops anything. It doesn't even seem to be effective in repelling three-feet-tall bear-people who are hitting them with rocks. Also, their light walkers explode when hit by two logs from opposite sides.

Star Wars Stormtrooper armor is 7+. It actually adds to the chance of you killing them. And the imperial light walkers would have fared better within the 7-th ed ruleset. They'd just get immobilized. Too bad the scenario was written a bit earlier.

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Well, wyches are supposed to have lightning fast relexes. You don't need armor if you can dodge. In fact, the armor will just slow you down.
The problem though is that they forget to dodge. I guess the guns are just that shiny.

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Well, wyches are supposed to have lightning fast relexes. You don't need armor if you can dodge. In fact, the armor will just slow you down.
The problem though is that they forget to dodge. I guess the guns are just that shiny.

Lightning reflexes can't dodge a laser, so Imperial Guard should be good. : D

Unless Wyches are like that one woman who had vision so good she could identify people from a mile away with her Mk 1 Eyeballs. At which point they could probably see the Guardsmen aiming at them and move out of the way before they pull the trigger.

 vipoid wrote:
Possibly something of an aside, but I dislike is the snapshot mechanic in general.

Aside from feeling a bit out of place in a sci-fi game (as opposed to, I don't know, a celebrating-cowboy simulator), it seems like a bad mechanic with regard to special/heavy weapons.

I say this because, unlike most basic weapons, these weapons generally can't be taken in the numbers required to balance out the odds. So, you end up with a situation where a few dice rolls can make a lot of difference, which always seems dubious to me.

I dislike it because it adds lots of player actions with very little added substance. On any given turn, half my tanks either moved or fired ordnance, so I'm rolling up lots of snap-firing heavy bolters and heavy stubbers which are already unlikely to affect the target at full BS, at snap shots they're very inefficient but with the rules there's no reason not to roll them, it just wastes everyone's time and energy.

I also feel like in the fluff a lascannon crew wasting shots on snap shots would be an executable offense to be carried out by the nearest commissar.

 Pouncey wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Well, wyches are supposed to have lightning fast relexes. You don't need armor if you can dodge. In fact, the armor will just slow you down.
The problem though is that they forget to dodge. I guess the guns are just that shiny.

Lightning reflexes can't dodge a laser, so Imperial Guard should be good. : D

The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…

A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.

Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”

sup mate

 TheSilo wrote:

I dislike it because it adds lots of player actions with very little added substance. On any given turn, half my tanks either moved or fired ordnance, so I'm rolling up lots of snap-firing heavy bolters and heavy stubbers which are already unlikely to affect the target at full BS, at snap shots they're very inefficient but with the rules there's no reason not to roll them, it just wastes everyone's time and energy.

Agreed.

Also, I just don't like the 'roll some dice and hope you get lucky' approach.

 TheSilo wrote:

I also feel like in the fluff a lascannon crew wasting shots on snap shots would be an executable offense to be carried out by the nearest commissar.

Hah! That's a damn good point.

 Ashiraya wrote:

 Pouncey wrote:

 CthuluIsSpy wrote:

 Psienesis wrote:
Also... running naked (ok, mostly-naked) into a hail of machine-gun (or machine-lasgun) fire is a really, really bad idea. Maybe put some armor on, ladies, before we go to the battlefield? Might improve your chances of surviving a bit.

Well, wyches are supposed to have lightning fast relexes. You don't need armor if you can dodge. In fact, the armor will just slow you down.
The problem though is that they forget to dodge. I guess the guns are just that shiny.

Lightning reflexes can't dodge a laser, so Imperial Guard should be good. : D

The First Heretic wrote:“Everything was in motion to an exacting standard – each twist of the spear haft brought the blade up to block las-fire or down to cut flesh…

A clunk, a click, and the weapon was reloaded. Sythran rose again, already cutting the air with grand sweeps, batting aside the streaking laser fire.

Sythran leapt his cadaver barricade and met them head on. They fell in pieces, and beyond a las-burn along his shoulder guard, the blood on his blade was the only evidence he’d even been fighting.”

sup mate

. . . He... can block... lasers. Like... traveling at 300,000,000 meters per second lasers. With a sword.

His weapon is traveling quickly enough to cause an explosion in the atmosphere sufficient to destroy half that god damned planet.

He's a Custodes. He doesn't want anything to do with your filthy physics.

Besides, it's fine. He's using a Guardian Spear, not a sword.

 Ashiraya wrote:
He's a Custodes. He doesn't want anything to do with your filthy physics.

Besides, it's fine. He's using a Guardian Spear, not a sword.

Oh, well if he's using a Guardian Spear, then of course that makes total sense why he's moving at extremely high relativistic speeds.

Indeed.

:: sigh :: I guess it's a moot point. GW's fluff never really had to make sense.

40K as a whole doesn't make sense. It's one of its very core qualities.

Space Marines would never work in any way IRL. But in 40K, not only do they work, they work very well indeed!

You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

 Peregrine wrote:
This is yet another problem that is solved by remembering that this is a scifi game and guns are inherently superior to swords. Just be glad that 40k's scale is such a mess that melee is even possible, if you demand a rebalance of shooting vs. assault GW might fix that problem.

That's Infinity you're thinking about.

A plasma gun gives you 2 shots whcih might kill you for 15 points. A power sword for the same points can have a lot more killing potential plus cover doesn't help.

40k is about having the right saturation of low AP weapons/attacks and enough chaff/distractions tie down the enemy. Also it's not even sensible since things are far too random to be anyway strategic.

 Deadshot wrote:
You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

How do you bat aside multiple shots? You still have to move the blade from shot to shot...

 Ashiraya wrote:
40K as a whole doesn't make sense. It's one of its very core qualities.

Space Marines would never work in any way IRL. But in 40K, not only do they work, they work very well indeed!

And the IG's strategy is silly. Doesn't matter how limitless your troops are, pissing them away in a war of attrition is a terrible idea when you can never be sure when or if reinforcements will arrive, due to the nature of Warp travel. But somehow it's managed to hold the line across much of the Imperium for thousands of years of unending war.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Deadshot wrote:
You do realise that it is entirely possible to block those shots. You can predict where the laser will be before the shot is fired, based on the fact that laser travels in straight lines. You simply have the blade ready and waiting.

He was blocking an entire squad's shots.

Note for Lasgun designers. Add a beam mode to the next version of your weapons so they can fire a steady beam instead of infrequent pulses. Instruct the troops to use this in a sweeping motion when faced with enemy units that dodge laser pulses. Aim beams at different parts of the target's body when faced with a target that can block with a weapon.