GW axing special characters - how do you feel about it?

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**ChazSexington**

Psienesis wrote:
Also, some of the special characters abilities can be exploited, especially with Allies.

You don't need Allies to exploit badly-written rules in this game. Allies just makes it easier.

As far as the "I don't like SC, I want to play my own characters!" vibe... that's simple, that's counts-as.

Take SC you like the crunch of. Make custom model. Give name. Now you have personal character with rules from the book for awesomeness. Have fun.

Removing them from the Codices because of the Chapterhouse thing is, as is said in the parlance of the times, a "real dick move".

Trying to write balanced codices is difficult enough without taking into account a slew of special characters whose rules must again be balanced and unexploitable when combined with other codices. What you are suggesting is what I am doing, though it definitely feels wrong when I'm not taking Huron to make a Crimson Corsairs force, even if it is a counts as.

I don't agree with their reasons for removing special characters - there are other reasons far better.

Davor wrote:
Why are the fans and customers the one to pay and suffer?

That one is fairly self-explanatory

**jonolikespie**

ChazSexington wrote:
Trying to write balanced codices is difficult enough without taking into account a slew of special characters whose rules must again be balanced and unexploitable when combined with other codices. What you are suggesting is what I am doing, though it definitely feels wrong when I'm not taking Huron to make a Crimson Corsairs force, even if it is a counts as.

No other company than GW seems to have any trouble writing reasonably well balanced rules. All it really takes are competent developers and playtesters.

**Fireraven**

I think they should start making limited edition special characters. Let say 250-500 total models charging 50-75 each for them with their own rules. That way they truely are special. And after the initial release jack the price up 20% and release 1/2 that number a year later. I bet the first time they do this those models will be super hard to get. Be exact I'm gonna send that to a few people I know see what they think.

**Great White**

Excuse my ignorance, but I recently got back into this hobby, so could somebody please explain what happened here in detail? Thank you

**Fireraven**

They removed a few independent characters that did not have non metal or newer models out of the last new codexes.

**Great White**

And why is that?

**Shigematsu**

For the most part, it looks like streamlining.

**jonolikespie**

Great White wrote:
And why is that?

It has to do with their attitude towards their IP. They can't punish third parties for making a model they themselves do not make so they are simply removing the profiles from the game rather than make models. It's not only special characters, it happened to the Nid spore pod too, as well as the ork looted wagon but they threw that into a dataslate in WD at the last minute because hey, as it turned out ork players had a problem with that.

**Jefffar**

It also doesn't mean they are gone for good either. They could appear when a suitable model is made.

**Antario**

Jimsolo wrote:
I still don't buy the line of reasoning that says the elimination of characters is due to the Chapterhouse suit. (Most of the eliminated characters weren't being produced by third parties, so the argument fails to hold up.)

I don't buy that line of reasoning either, it smells like an excuse. I think it's simply a cost cutting move. Molds for PVC are more expensive than resin casting. For small volume productions like most current special characters, it's simply not/less profitable to release them in plastic. Universal independent characters are more interesting for GW as they are likely to sell multiples particularly if the IC are cheap points wise.

The Ogryn and SW: Venerable Dreadnaught releases do point at a new line of SC that can be made from a base universal model with minimal extra parts.

**AllSeeingSkink**

jonolikespie wrote:
Great White wrote:
And why is that?

It has to do with their attitude towards their IP. They can't punish third parties for making a model they themselves do not make so they are simply removing the profiles from the game rather than make models. It's not only special characters, it happened to the Nid spore pod too, as well as the ork looted wagon but they threw that into a dataslate in WD at the last minute because hey, as it turned out ork players had a problem with that.

IP doesn't really explain why a bunch of the IG characters that did have models got axed.

**SHUPPET**

Mr Morden wrote:
Unfortunately it does appear that more and more of what would once be part of the general Codex is now going to be in various Supplements and data slates - we saw that with Guard (Storm troopers) Tau (Farsight), Orks (Gazz) and now with Dark Eldar (Covens).

So a Codex will effectively be £60-70+ :( I really can't justify that sort of cost these days.............

In Australia, that's how much the barebones DE codex costs BEFORE the day one DLC and any other data slates you want to factor in. Not including all the models I have to replace for my army because they nerfed everything somewhat playable, and cut all 3 of the special characters that I use from the dex. Im sticking to 5th thx. Will do until they either bring back the characters or at least add something new to compensate. Still won't be purchasing another dex again until they at least attempt to balance releases properly and not view them as a business investment, I can't support that in the age of internet piracy lol

**Backfire**

jonolikespie wrote:
ChazSexington wrote:
Trying to write balanced codices is difficult enough without taking into account a slew of special characters whose rules must again be balanced and unexploitable when combined with other codices. What you are suggesting is what I am doing, though it definitely feels wrong when I'm not taking Huron to make a Crimson Corsairs force, even if it is a counts as.

No other company than GW seems to have any trouble writing reasonably well balanced rules. All it really takes are competent developers and playtesters.

*cough*FFG*cough*

Aaanyways, I don't see removing SC's as a big deal. At least they're only removing characters who don't have a mini. During Cavatore era, they were cutting out characters who did have a mini. For example, Aun'shi was cut from 4th edition Tau codex, even though he was quite popular and had a great mini. There were many others. Codeci of that era had very few SC's.

I don't really like Special characters. Only one I regularly use is Belial, because he's the only way to play Deathwing. If I didn't have to, I probably wouldn't use him much. I think Special Characters have seen way too much power creep. Back in the day, most of them weren't really that great. They tended to be expensive for their abilities and generally taken only for fun or if one wanted to try out their more exotic abilities. Nowadays, they're pretty much mandatory. It started out from 5th edition Space Marines codex where you needed an SC to play non-UM chapters: it was really lame way to write the chapters in. These days, SC's are almost always superior in points-effectiveness to stock characters. Special characters are no longer special when they're in every frigging army.

**Frozen Ocean**

It annoys me that I can't have my own awesome Farseer or Sorcerer without using Eldrad or Ahriman. Tigurius is a worse case than Ahriman or Eldrad, because he is Ultramarine-only (and therefore can't be taken unless with Ultramarine Chapter Tactics) and is yet another Ultramarine "just better than the rest" character.

I prefer Specials to be something different rather than something better, and these psykers are the biggest offenders (Ahriman and Eldrad are both characters I like a lot, though, in terms of story) because they are so superior to the generic versions. Yes, in-universe they are powerful characters, but their existence should not prevent the existence of other powerful psykers (as in your own characters).

Some Specials I like, some I don't. However, removing player choice is always bad.

**Da Butcha**

I guess you could put me in the 'annoyed all around' camp:

I am annoyed that they removed special characters that had a model, because people bought that model, and now have to use it as a 'counts-as' (and it might not even be legal that way!). Those special characters were also 'actual' people in the 40K universe, as well, so what happened to them?

I'm annoyed that they removed special characters that didn't have a model because people spent their time and money converting an appropriate model, and now, you have to use it as a 'counts-as' (assuming it is even legal).

I'm annoyed that some special characters were necessary to allow certain types of armies to be fielded, because it was a stupid restriction and it wasn't consistent across different armies. If you played Space Marines, a captain on bikes unlocked bikes as troops, but for orks, you had to take a special character (Wazzdakka). If it isn't broken to allow 'generic hqs' in one army to unlock options, then it shouldn't be broken in another army.

I'm annoyed that there is no way (within the rules) for you to create your own special characters that are even nearly as distinctive as official special characters. These specific named characters can have master-crafted weapons and cool special abilities, but your own Chapter Master or Warboss can't.

I wish that they had created a 'special character' generation system that worked kind of like the old Imperial Guard doctrines or the older Space Marine trait system. There would have been a series of rules for creating special characters, and named characters were created using those rules. Really important characters like Marneus Calgar or Ghaz might have had more special rules than another character could legally take, but, in general, didn't have access to unique rules unless they were actually really unique. If Mephiston is really the only Blood Angel to have ever 'survived' the curse without going insane, then sure, give him a new rule that only he has. But if any Chapter Master of the Deathwing should be able to call up a whole bunch of Terminators, then don't make someone take Belial just to do that.

I just think the whole darn thing could have been handled more creatively and with more respect for their fans.

**Jefffar**

Later books, and in particular codex supplements have removed the need for special characters to make FOC changes. The fact that everything in 7th scores makes taking units as troops somewhat obsolete as well.

Some examples:

Codex Chasos Space Marines let's you take a number of different elites as troops just by cheaply upgrading your HQ.

Codex Space Marines makes bikes troops as long as your chapter master or captain is on a bike

Codex Space Marines master of the forge doubles the number of slots available to dreadnoughts.

Farsight Enclaves let's you take Crisis Suits as troops without taking Farsight himself.

Champions of Fenris let's you deploy an army of only HQ and Elite choices, no need to field Logan Grimnar or anybody else to do so.

So the old take X character to take Y as troops model seems to be on the way out. I strongly expect we'll see specialized formations for Death Company in the new Blood Angels book and come the time they get back to Dark Angels alternate FOCs for Deathwing and Ravenwing won't require a special character to run.

**Great White**

Well if they're gonna start axing sc (especially ones that have models) and supplementing their abilities with FOC changes, then I want more models for my HQ choices

**Jehan-reznor**

So according GW the HHHobby is buying GW's miniatures and then they get rid of the most collectible part of their line, great business sense as always.

**Gamerely**

What's funny is Trazyn the Infinite was pretty much the main reason I became interested in playing Necrons.

**SYKOJAK**

Special Characters are nothing big in my opinion. I like it when my generic characters put a powerfist in thier mouth to permanently silence them. To each their own however.

**vipoid**

Great White wrote:
Well if they're gonna start axing sc (especially ones that have models) and supplementing their abilities with FOC changes, then I want more models for my HQ choices

I want more options for my HQ choices...

**Great White**

vipoid wrote:
Great White wrote:
Well if they're gonna start axing sc (especially ones that have models) and supplementing their abilities with FOC changes, then I want more models for my HQ choices

I want more options for my HQ choices...

I mean just more models for more variety. So not to have the same space marine captain in on every table. They won't be characters from the fluff, but just different looking

**vipoid**

Great White wrote:

I mean just more models for more variety. So not to have the same space marine captain in on every table. They won't be characters from the fluff, but just different looking

I know what you mean, but I'd also like to have more wargear options for basic HQs.

If they're going to remove SCs, they could at least add some more variety/creativity elsewhere.

**MWHistorian**

vipoid wrote:
Great White wrote:

I mean just more models for more variety. So not to have the same space marine captain in on every table. They won't be characters from the fluff, but just different looking

I know what you mean, but I'd also like to have more wargear options for basic HQs.

If they're going to remove SCs, they could at least add some more variety/creativity elsewhere.

That's my thought as well.
I love making my own characters and never take named characters.
(I wished they had a customizable "living saint" instead of st. Celestine.)

**vipoid**

MWHistorian wrote:

That's my thought as well.
I love making my own characters and never take named characters.
(I wished they had a customizable "living saint" instead of st. Celestine.)

Agreed.

I think what annoys me is that GW makes the basic characters second-tier to the special characters. They just have rules, wargear, stats and abilities that are far beyond those of standard characters. They've basically said "make your own characters if you want, but they'll never be as awsome as ours." Doesn't really feel right for a company that drones on about 'forging the narrative'.

I've said this before, but I really think regular characters should have more choice in their wargear and options, and that SCs should just be specific builds that utilise only the available options.

**zephoid**

GW/FW has a pretty huge opportunity here. If i was them, i would step in here and create a 'book of characters' type thing. Gives them a chance to make a whole bunch of pretty models and each of them has a ~2 page back story. Sort of like what SMs have in the Badab war. When they updated the Badab War characters, you saw more of the updated characters than you saw codex HQs around here.

**Slayer-Fan123**

Frozen Ocean wrote:
It annoys me that I can't have my own awesome Farseer or Sorcerer without using Eldrad or Ahriman.

You can. It's called "Counts As". You honestly think I LIKE Nemesor's model? Hell no. I made a conversion using a regular Destroyer's gun, a Lychguard shield, a Destroyer Lord's body and head, and then Immortal legs. He always counts as Nemesor simply because I like the rules.

Nobody FORCES you to use special characters, particularly the ones you complained about, if only because the other options are still typically better. Ahriman sucks compared to generic Psykers from the SAME codex, let alone other codices and armies (Sevrin Loth, anyone?) and Eldrad is more than unneeded in the Eldar army so long as you can use enough Wave Serpents. Granted, there are times where the special character IS better than the generic option (Sevrin Loth, anyone?) but those cases are so few and far between. I honestly ask: do you REALLY care that much?

**ChazSexington**

jonolikespie wrote:

No other company than GW seems to have any trouble writing reasonably well balanced rules. All it really takes are competent developers and playtesters.

How many other games have you played? The more complicated a game, the more room for balance issues. Very few games, board or computer, manage this. Admittedly, GW are terribad at it, but there are many offenders out there. Axis & Allies world springs to mind, where an early "bug" can result in Axis victory in turn 3 or something. The most balanced game I've ever played is probably Chinese checkers or chess, or Hell, most card games that don't involve a dealer, but you get the point.

Making HQs more customisable would be awesome though.