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... it's actually the other way round. The 40K setting was created before anything of the Heresy was known. It was just some words on a page at the time, with literally no details to it at all.

It wasn't until... oh... 2nd edition? 3rd? That we actually knew much of anything about the HH.

Shoot, between Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition, just about everything changed. Space Marines used to be drug-amped criminals, not Holy Space Knights... and humans and Eldar used to be able to interbreed (because Elves and Humans do).

So what the HH is now, as a novel series, is GW cash-cowing a mythological event in their setting, trying to set into stone something that, by the time the actual game takes place, is as mythological as Camelot or the Fall of Atlantis.

Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

 Psienesis wrote:
... it's actually the other way round. The 40K setting was created before anything of the Heresy was known. It was just some words on a page at the time, with literally no details to it at all.

It wasn't until... oh... 2nd edition? 3rd? That we actually knew much of anything about the HH.

Shoot, between Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition, just about everything changed. Space Marines used to be drug-amped criminals, not Holy Space Knights... and humans and Eldar used to be able to interbreed (because Elves and Humans do).

So what the HH is now, as a novel series, is GW cash-cowing a mythological event in their setting, trying to set into stone something that, by the time the actual game takes place, is as mythological as Camelot or the Fall of Atlantis.

He meant from an in-universe standpoint.

 Furyou Miko wrote:
McNeil's 40k mechanicus series - Priests of Mars, Lords of Mars, Zero-day Exploit (short story) and the crap-pile that was Gods of Mars.

You know, you're dangerously close to agreeing with me on something.

My favorite part of Gods of Mars was the character who lost a hand having two hands at the end of the story.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Psienesis wrote:
... it's actually the other way round. The 40K setting was created before anything of the Heresy was known. It was just some words on a page at the time, with literally no details to it at all.

It wasn't until... oh... 2nd edition? 3rd? That we actually knew much of anything about the HH.

Shoot, between Rogue Trader and 2nd Edition, just about everything changed. Space Marines used to be drug-amped criminals, not Holy Space Knights... and humans and Eldar used to be able to interbreed (because Elves and Humans do).

So what the HH is now, as a novel series, is GW cash-cowing a mythological event in their setting, trying to set into stone something that, by the time the actual game takes place, is as mythological as Camelot or the Fall of Atlantis.

The first framework of the Horus Heresy was in 1988's Slaves to Darkness. Davin, lodges, Eisenstein, Isstvan III & V, Battle of Terra, etc. It was all in 1989's Space Marine (epic) rulebook too, where Tarvitz, Garro and Varren were all introduced in the Eisenstein story. The basics are actually pretty old.

Also, the Space Marines changed almost immediately. Literally, less than 6 months after Rogue Trader was published, Priestley's Origins of the Legiones Astartes was published in the February 1988 White Dwarf which changed the Space Marines into what they are today. And they were technically always warrior monks. In fact, the Space Wolves description uses that term specifically. If you read the description of The Fang in the RT book, it talks about how the Marines spend time meditating in their rooms and praying before meals, etc. In fact, the term "Battle Brothers" is a reference to them being monks.


All 2nd Edition did was codify everything into one coherent story, and the Imperium's identity as the xenophobic oppressive theocracy we know today. The fluff from Rogue Trader was a bit spread out all over the place. A lot of people really only know the original Rogue Trader rulebook and assume "that's the way it was". But the 1st edition of the game was kind of a living work, and evolved as it went along.

 Veteran Sergeant wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
McNeil's 40k mechanicus series - Priests of Mars, Lords of Mars, Zero-day Exploit (short story) and the crap-pile that was Gods of Mars.

You know, you're dangerously close to agreeing with me on something.

My favorite part of Gods of Mars was the character who lost a hand having two hands at the end of the story.

Uh, the only places we really argue are when women are involved... :p

I recommend the Dark Eldar Trilogy by Andy Chambers. Very well written. Lots of action and intrigue but not outrageous amounts of either.
It is far and away better than the Eldar Trilogy by Gav Thorpe. Gav Thorpe sounds like he's an amateur who was helped greatly by his editors. While Gav's series was a fantastic window into the lives of the Eldar, Andy Chambers wove a much more captivating story.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

Except there isn't gak to cover and they've been dragging the book series out for goddamned years trying to milk as much money off it and are covering every single little tiny insignificant battle that never even existed prior and was only created to sell books. And it's not just it takes long to read, the quality control is utterly abysmal and most novels are utter trash only worth being used as expensive toilet paper or kindling. Only a couple books stand out as having quality such as a Thousand Sons or Betrayer, while most of them like False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, Vulkan Lives, etc are so repulsive in their lack of quality that it's offensive to the eyes.

The only good the HH is for is picking though the pile of gak and hunting by author or by legion, but certainly not buying the whole lot. I'd spent that model on miniatures, not waste it the pet hack writers GW uses for most of the Horus Heresy.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

Except there isn't gak to cover and they've been dragging the book series out for goddamned years trying to milk as much money off it and are covering every single little tiny insignificant battle that never even existed prior and was only created to sell books. And it's not just it takes long to read, the quality control is utterly abysmal and most novels are utter trash only worth being used as expensive toilet paper or kindling. Only a couple books stand out as having quality such as a Thousand Sons or Betrayer, while most of them like False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, Vulkan Lives, etc are so repulsive in their lack of quality that it's offensive to the eyes.

The only good the HH is for is picking though the pile of gak and hunting by author or by legion, but certainly not buying the whole lot. I'd spent that model on miniatures, not waste it the pet hack writers GW uses for most of the Horus Heresy.

GEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!

well... i guess we know how you feel...

but cmon FALSE GODS was amazing!!!! the part where Horus is taken into the temple to be healed and is having a bad ass LSD trip and sees the future/fake future, ultimately where chaos tricks him was amazing!!!! but you can have your opinion....

as for the cost of the books... go to amazon and buy them USED!!!! duh...

what lore of the HH are you into wyzilla?

... there's nothing to drag out with the HH. We already know how the story ends. Everything else is just wasting time.

Psienesis wrote:... there's nothing to drag out with the HH.

Wyzilla wrote:Except there isn't gak to cover

I hate that people see it this way. It's like people honestly believe if it wasn't mentioned in Realm of Chaos or Adeptus Titanicus or the Index Astartes then it couldn't possibly have happened and we already know everything there is worth knowing about the Heresy. That there was Istvaan, Calth, Prospero, Signus, and Terra and that's it. Nothing else happened. Nothing else matters. The whole point of covering every detail is that you read what you want to read. If you're just buying all of them for the sake of buying them and then complaining that they're milking it, then why don't you stop buying them and go focus on something else in 40k?
Now, has all of it been amazing? Of course not. The handling of Vulkan was atrocious by all involved. The Dark Angels storyline is all over the place. But simply getting every possible perspective, first-person, third, historical, etc is what I enjoy about the series as well as the depth of the legions involved.

 chuckz1487 wrote:

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

Not helping.

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

Except there isn't gak to cover and they've been dragging the book series out for goddamned years trying to milk as much money off it and are covering every single little tiny insignificant battle that never even existed prior and was only created to sell books. And it's not just it takes long to read, the quality control is utterly abysmal and most novels are utter trash only worth being used as expensive toilet paper or kindling. Only a couple books stand out as having quality such as a Thousand Sons or Betrayer, while most of them like False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, Vulkan Lives, etc are so repulsive in their lack of quality that it's offensive to the eyes.

The only good the HH is for is picking though the pile of gak and hunting by author or by legion, but certainly not buying the whole lot. I'd spent that model on miniatures, not waste it the pet hack writers GW uses for most of the Horus Heresy.

GEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!

well... i guess we know how you feel...

but cmon FALSE GODS was amazing!!!! the part where Horus is taken into the temple to be healed and is having a bad ass LSD trip and sees the future/fake future, ultimately where chaos tricks him was amazing!!!! but you can have your opinion....

as for the cost of the books... go to amazon and buy them USED!!!! duh...

what lore of the HH are you into wyzilla?

Do you read any professional quality novels that aren't 40k? False Gods was a hack job that turned Abnett's interesting and deeper take of Horus as an intelligent person to a blithering moron thanks to McNeil's inability to write characters, and not cardboard cutouts of tropes. Horus' fall went from an unknown storied event in the fluff that was mysterious to Horus having the mental faculties of a very young child suffering a hard concussion that turned to Chaos simply because a dude in a dream told him to do it. Mind you this is in a universe where witches and wizards are as common as grass and Horus' immediate response should have been laughter at the idea of somebody trying to corrupt him with such a pathetic, unreliable format. Psykers can cause whatever they wish in a hallucination and Horus should have ignored it, especially given that Erebus was actually cheating him at first and appearing as one of Horus' dead champions.But no, the favored son of the Emperor can apparently be turned by somebody saying "EMPEROR BAD CHAOS GUD" with no questions or objections raised because Horus has a lower social IQ then CHILDREN.

Seroiusly, what the feth is your library comprised of to think that the Horus Heresy consists of good writing. Better question- how old are you? Because English Class by eighteen should have introduced you to Homer, Tolkien, Twain, etc. All of whom beat virtually all of the Black Library children in character depth like they're a red haired stepchild. The only realm of the Black Library where there is a greater concentration of good books is normal 40k, although those are still pulp fiction to be enjoyed as a guilty pleasure like comic books. Actual deep, mature, interesting Sci Fi with good writing is done in series like the Culture or the Rifters.

Also, the problem is that while the Horus Heresy has a chance to be good and provide interesting viewpoints, and sometimes succeeds such as the Rise of Horus or Betrayer.... but so, so often falls incredibly short of its potential. I only buy books on the Dark Angels and Night Lords due to them being my favorite factions, and ignore all other ilk unless it's exceptional like Betrayer. I would buy the Sallies too, but dear fething god the work done in Vulkan Lives was absolutely atrocious, not to mention butchered the character of the Night Haunter and turned him from grimdark batman to discount Joker.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

Except there isn't gak to cover and they've been dragging the book series out for goddamned years trying to milk as much money off it and are covering every single little tiny insignificant battle that never even existed prior and was only created to sell books. And it's not just it takes long to read, the quality control is utterly abysmal and most novels are utter trash only worth being used as expensive toilet paper or kindling. Only a couple books stand out as having quality such as a Thousand Sons or Betrayer, while most of them like False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, Vulkan Lives, etc are so repulsive in their lack of quality that it's offensive to the eyes.

The only good the HH is for is picking though the pile of gak and hunting by author or by legion, but certainly not buying the whole lot. I'd spent that model on miniatures, not waste it the pet hack writers GW uses for most of the Horus Heresy.

GEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!

well... i guess we know how you feel...

but cmon FALSE GODS was amazing!!!! the part where Horus is taken into the temple to be healed and is having a bad ass LSD trip and sees the future/fake future, ultimately where chaos tricks him was amazing!!!! but you can have your opinion....

as for the cost of the books... go to amazon and buy them USED!!!! duh...

what lore of the HH are you into wyzilla?

Do you read any professional quality novels that aren't 40k? False Gods was a hack job that turned Abnett's interesting and deeper take of Horus as an intelligent person to a blithering moron thanks to McNeil's inability to write characters, and not cardboard cutouts of tropes. Horus' fall went from an unknown storied event in the fluff that was mysterious to Horus having the mental faculties of a very young child suffering a hard concussion that turned to Chaos simply because a dude in a dream told him to do it. Mind you this is in a universe where witches and wizards are as common as grass and Horus' immediate response should have been laughter at the idea of somebody trying to corrupt him with such a pathetic, unreliable format. Psykers can cause whatever they wish in a hallucination and Horus should have ignored it, especially given that Erebus was actually cheating him at first and appearing as one of Horus' dead champions.But no, the favored son of the Emperor can apparently be turned by somebody saying "EMPEROR BAD CHAOS GUD" with no questions or objections raised because Horus has a lower social IQ then CHILDREN.

Seroiusly, what the feth is your library comprised of to think that the Horus Heresy consists of good writing. Better question- how old are you? Because English Class by eighteen should have introduced you to Homer, Tolkien, Twain, etc. All of whom beat virtually all of the Black Library children in character depth like they're a red haired stepchild. The only realm of the Black Library where there is a greater concentration of good books is normal 40k, although those are still pulp fiction to be enjoyed as a guilty pleasure like comic books. Actual deep, mature, interesting Sci Fi with good writing is done in series like the Culture or the Rifters.

Also, the problem is that while the Horus Heresy has a chance to be good and provide interesting viewpoints, and sometimes succeeds such as the Rise of Horus or Betrayer.... but so, so often falls incredibly short of its potential. I only buy books on the Dark Angels and Night Lords due to them being my favorite factions, and ignore all other ilk unless it's exceptional like Betrayer. I would buy the Sallies too, but dear fething god the work done in Vulkan Lives was absolutely atrocious, not to mention butchered the character of the Night Haunter and turned him from grimdark batman to discount Joker.

well shiiiiiiiyat... I enjoy them

Too much HH, not enough IG.

Hopefully Steve Lyons sticks to Krieg-centered novels, he's really good at that.

BL novels can be good, but they have alot of problems (mostly already stated.) my biggest problem is black library doesn't branch out much beyond the imperium. Though admittedly they're getting better with eldar/dark eldar getting their first omnibuses and Valedor (my favorite bl novel) only mentioning the IoM once or twice was nice. But that being said there's not really enough Xenos themed books from my perspective and all the space Marines stomping everyone just gets real old real fast. For me at least anyway. I'd love to see some necron novels or maybe a series of Ork stories. Or maybe a farsight novel would be nice. Just seeing these races interact more often would be alot more interesting to me than space Marines beat impossible odds again because space marine! Lol but I suppose I'm in the minority as most of the fan base tends to lean on the SM as opposed to the other races.

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 chuckz1487 wrote:

 Wyzilla wrote:

 Furyou Miko wrote:
Yeah, but chuckz, you're forgetting one major thing...

The Horus Heresy is fricken boring.

A-Fething-Men. It started out with momentum but slowed down to a snail's pace with incredible speed. The only HH books I buy are those on the Night Lords and Dark Angels. Otherwise I ignore it due to it being incredibly boring and more stagnant then 40k.

AWWWWWWWW man!!!! cmon!!!! the HH is amazing...

yes yes yes ill admit it slow... but only because there is soooooo much gak to cover....

i like to think of it as a very sexy girl (or boy depending on your preference) that you are trying to get to fall in love with you. It takes time... you gotta impress her and all that stupid stuff but it will be worth it....

but yes dont get me wrong, with every book being about 400-500pgs it can seem quite slow but we gotta look at the BIG picture. Its painting the story from different vantage points and from different times... I love how they connect stories from previous books and such. Also it gives one much more in depth look at the legions. For example, I am a loyal follower to the 1000 sons... i love magnus and all that stuff... that being said I hated the SW (space wolves) in the book "Thousand Sons" due to the destruction of prospero, however in the book "Prospero Burns" it gives the same story but from the POV of the SW and gives you a very interesting insight on there culture etc... I no longer see the SW as a barbaric legion...

Ultimately you have to accept the HH will take forever to read, but i mean cmon... like we have anything better to do

BTW if anyone wants to talk HH feel free to msg me...

Except there isn't gak to cover and they've been dragging the book series out for goddamned years trying to milk as much money off it and are covering every single little tiny insignificant battle that never even existed prior and was only created to sell books. And it's not just it takes long to read, the quality control is utterly abysmal and most novels are utter trash only worth being used as expensive toilet paper or kindling. Only a couple books stand out as having quality such as a Thousand Sons or Betrayer, while most of them like False Gods, Battle for the Abyss, Vulkan Lives, etc are so repulsive in their lack of quality that it's offensive to the eyes.

The only good the HH is for is picking though the pile of gak and hunting by author or by legion, but certainly not buying the whole lot. I'd spent that model on miniatures, not waste it the pet hack writers GW uses for most of the Horus Heresy.

GEEEEEEEEZ!!!!!

well... i guess we know how you feel...

but cmon FALSE GODS was amazing!!!! the part where Horus is taken into the temple to be healed and is having a bad ass LSD trip and sees the future/fake future, ultimately where chaos tricks him was amazing!!!! but you can have your opinion....

as for the cost of the books... go to amazon and buy them USED!!!! duh...

what lore of the HH are you into wyzilla?

Do you read any professional quality novels that aren't 40k? False Gods was a hack job that turned Abnett's interesting and deeper take of Horus as an intelligent person to a blithering moron thanks to McNeil's inability to write characters, and not cardboard cutouts of tropes. Horus' fall went from an unknown storied event in the fluff that was mysterious to Horus having the mental faculties of a very young child suffering a hard concussion that turned to Chaos simply because a dude in a dream told him to do it. Mind you this is in a universe where witches and wizards are as common as grass and Horus' immediate response should have been laughter at the idea of somebody trying to corrupt him with such a pathetic, unreliable format. Psykers can cause whatever they wish in a hallucination and Horus should have ignored it, especially given that Erebus was actually cheating him at first and appearing as one of Horus' dead champions.But no, the favored son of the Emperor can apparently be turned by somebody saying "EMPEROR BAD CHAOS GUD" with no questions or objections raised because Horus has a lower social IQ then CHILDREN.

Seroiusly, what the feth is your library comprised of to think that the Horus Heresy consists of good writing. Better question- how old are you? Because English Class by eighteen should have introduced you to Homer, Tolkien, Twain, etc. All of whom beat virtually all of the Black Library children in character depth like they're a red haired stepchild. The only realm of the Black Library where there is a greater concentration of good books is normal 40k, although those are still pulp fiction to be enjoyed as a guilty pleasure like comic books. Actual deep, mature, interesting Sci Fi with good writing is done in series like the Culture or the Rifters.

Also, the problem is that while the Horus Heresy has a chance to be good and provide interesting viewpoints, and sometimes succeeds such as the Rise of Horus or Betrayer.... but so, so often falls incredibly short of its potential. I only buy books on the Dark Angels and Night Lords due to them being my favorite factions, and ignore all other ilk unless it's exceptional like Betrayer. I would buy the Sallies too, but dear fething god the work done in Vulkan Lives was absolutely atrocious, not to mention butchered the character of the Night Haunter and turned him from grimdark batman to discount Joker.

Well the irony. Lecturing someone else on good writing and then putting Twain and Tolkien together. Newsflash bub, Tolkien might have wrote a good story but he was not a good writer and particularly the LOTR trilogy are badly written books despite a compelling setting and story. The parallels between LOTR and 40k are quite stark in that both consist of compelling narratives and setting often combined with poor to terrible execution. The positive aspects usually far outweigh the negative ones which explain their popularity. I do sometimes wonder if it could have been improved with a modern team and a very ruthless editor but his ponderous prose and unfortunate lack of ability to use language effectively, boring verbiage and lack of pacing dont seem fixable. An appeal to popularity does not dismiss the critique of his writing, in the same way that 40k achieves popularity without the presumed necessary prerequisite writing skills.

That being said, while I agree that the 40k series is being stretched far beyond snapping point (damnation of pythos? What the hell, get on with the fething story you money grubbing hacks), ADB and some Dan Abnetts are very very good. I always greatly enjoyed Scars. That last Graham Mcneil one became almost readable in the latter half too. Or at least I was interested enough in Horus and his progression in the storyline to be forgiving.

I agree ADB is phenomenal... his detail does such a good job of painting an imaginative picture...

I tried to read Horus Rising. I wanted to like it, I really did, but I couldn't get through the 1st Chapter. YMMV

Thatguyhsagun wrote:

 pantheralegionnaire wrote:
I haven't read all that many, but I generally find them more juvenile and gory than the Horus Heresy ones. That's not to say that the HH books are not juvenile and gory...but the element of betrayal in the plot is compelling.

I enjoyed the Blood Angels books by James Swallow, but mainly because I love BA. I think that Dan Abnett is generally regarded as the best 40k novelist (Gaunt's Ghosts rates well), but I like Graham McNeill, Gav Thorpe and Aaron Dembski-Bowden too.

Listen to this man, he seems to know whats what.

This generally represents my overall opinions as well. HH is a bit spotty, but in general is better than most of the other BL stuff.

Abnett is the best and most consistent. Gaunts Ghosts are qute good, but his Eisenhorn and Ravenor books (both available as anthologies now) are probably the best BL books ever written and come the closest to being books that hold their own against non-BL Sci-FI literature. I still reread them occasionally, There are some other good authors and novels such as Ciaphas Cain sprinkled amidst the mediocrity, but someone more steeped in BL than I will have to point you in their direction.

Lastly, I will leave you with this: I occasionally pick up GW novels when they show up cheap. I've probably read about 30 or so over the years. I've never read one that I didn't at least somewhat enjoy, but most are pretty much forgettable and go right back up for sale when I'm done. The only GW novels to earn a permanent spot on my booksehelf thus far are the HH, Guant's Ghosts, Eisenhorn, Ravenor and Ciapahs Cain.

I challenge somebody to explain to me what happed in The Unremembered Empire.

I mean, really explain it to me. Because the plot synopsis is Guilliman and Lionel Johnson talk about what's going to happen when Sanguinius gets there so they can rebuild the Imperium if they have to. And then some stuff happens, and then Sanguinius gets there, the end.


Seriously. 400 pages where absolutely nothing of consequence happens.


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Redseer wrote:
BL novels can be good, but they have alot of problems (mostly already stated.) my biggest problem is black library doesn't branch out much beyond the imperium.

Writing the Imperium is also easier as you don't have to worry about trying to convey believable alien perspectives and motivations.

And a lot of 40K's antagonists thrive on ridiculously flimsy back stories. Rampaging space fungus trapped in a perpetual Mad Max loop. Sadomasochistic space fetish elves.


If you're going to write a novel, trying to figure out what Future Humans might want/need/love is significantly easier to write, and also significanty easier for the majority of readers to identify with and understand. Trying to figure out what a deathless Egyptian Space Terminator wants and trying to write from that perspective for a few hundred pages could be maddening, lol.

I've read a few 40k novels, and while they were entertaining (which doesn't mean some of them were really, really, bad, just that they were fun to read), but each one reminds me why they're so low on my to-read list. There are a lot of really, really good books out there to get to before I read Black Library regularly.

 jasper76 wrote:
I tried to read Horus Rising. I wanted to like it, I really did, but I couldn't get through the 1st Chapter. YMMV

The first chapter is pretty bad, all that false emperor stuff, but it is important... Can't say why without spoilers. I suggest getting past the first chapter and giving it another chance.

The point, though, is that good books tend to find a way of delivering that stuff without driving away readers. If reading the first page doesn't make you want to read the second, there's an issue.

 DarkLink wrote:
The point, though, is that good books tend to find a way of delivering that stuff without driving away readers. If reading the first page doesn't make you want to read the second, there's an issue.

100% disagree. First few chapters of a book don't have to be gripping for a book to be good.

 Rippy wrote:

 DarkLink wrote:
The point, though, is that good books tend to find a way of delivering that stuff without driving away readers. If reading the first page doesn't make you want to read the second, there's an issue.

100% disagree. First few chapters of a book don't have to be gripping for a book to be good.

I think you're both part right. There are some good books that start off pretty slow (Fellowship of the Ring….) but when it comes to pulp writing like BL, it really behoves the author to grab you from the first page and take off quick. If BL was publishing "literature" then maybe there would be a reason for the reader to endure a less-than stellar first chapter or so in order to get into the depth of a narrative, but BL publishes pulp fiction and the genre pretty much requires a rocket start.

Note that I don't use "Pulp Fiction" as a pejorative. The complete set of Battletech and Mechwarrior novels on my shelf attest to my appreciation of it. Rather it's simply an acknowledgement of the genre and the expectations accompanying that genre.