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Martel732 wrote:

 A Town Called Malus wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
"They are the single most complained about army in the game. "

That's absolutely false. Eldar have been the #1 hated on army since their 6th ed codex.

The Riptide is very much OP, not just "a bit" more powerful than its cost. But the rest of the list is very manageable, especially compared to Eldar or Gravstar.

Riptide is only OP because the Ion Accelerator is way too cheap. Without the Ion Accelerator it's still tough but has nowhere near the lethality when it can't drop AP2 pie plates.

The Riptide chassis is too durable for its cost/effective range. The thing never gets close, which means 80% of the weapons that can hurt it can't reach. It's basically immortal in about half the games it participates in. The brokeness of the ion accelerator stacks on top of the chassis being broken to begin with.

It's anecdotal but logical: I've killed well over 20 dreadknights since the GK codex came out. I've killed about 3 Riptides, despite playing Tau many more times. They. Don't. Die.

The burst cannon has a 36" range. On top of a 6" move that gives it an effective range of 42". From 36" range it can then fall back a maximum of 12" using its thrust move normally or 18" if nova charging it. On average it will fall back 7" on a normal move and either 10" or 11" on a nova thrust. Both times it fails to exceed 48" distance from the target, so it can still be in range of heavy weapons such as Lascannons.

Now, the Burst Cannon when not nova charged is Heavy 8 S6 AP4. The Riptide is, without markerlight support, BS3. This means that on average a non-nova charged burst cannon will cause 1 wound to an MEQ a turn.

When Nova charged it is Heavy 12 S6 AP4 Rending and Gets Hot. This means that, again on average, the Riptide will: Inflict 2 gets hot wounds on itself which it will likely save from its armour, miss with 4 other shots and hit with the remaining 6. Out of those 6: 1 will rend and 4 will wound normally. Of the four that wound normally an MEQ will save 2/3rds of the time. So, in total, the Nova charged burst cannon will cause 2.3 wounds per turn to MEQs.

Now, the Riptide has a 1/3 chance of failing its Nova-charge. So if we assume a 6 turn game, 4 of those turns will be nova charged and 2 will not. So, assuming it gets to shoot on every turn, a Burst Cannon Riptide will kill 11.3 MEQs with its main gun. SMS would add another 2.6 wounds over the whole game, Plasma another 2.5 at long range or 5 in rapid fire range, Fusion another 2.5.

So the maximum damage it will inflict, on average, is 16 MEQs and to do that it has to be within 12" of its target in every one of its shooting phases and only ever nova charge to make use of the nova charged burst cannon profile, which means no 3D6" thrust move and no 3++. Sure you may not kill it in the game as it is still quite tough but its offensive power is hugely reduced by not having the ion accelerator. Which makes ignoring it a perfectly viable option.

And if you must kill it, with a 5++ 5+ FNP (which brings it up to 215 points), it'll take 14 lascannon/melta hits to bring down or 17 plasma gun hits.

Martel732 wrote:

The game being broken for mono-dex is an excellent argument for not playing at all.

For the record, the BA can't bring any of those weapons systems in sufficient quantity to mathematically threaten a Riptide. AT least, not without tailoring.

I honestly believe a lot of 40ks woes could be fixed with capping games at 1000-1250 points, add character restrictions (Unique guys can only be in one, not both, lists), and move to a two list format a la Warmachine. It solves bad match up issues, allows you to play with lots of different toys, and it punishes skew lists hard. Add in scenarios that don't "turn limit" the game, but making it winnable when X victory points are achieved and boom, much better game.

If you feel fed up, pitch that. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work, you at least tried to do something that didn't involve making people shelve their toys.

The heavy burst cannon is not that great, but the chasis itself is crazy good for the cost. The chasis needs to be a bit more expensive, and the IA a LOT more expensive.

Of course, looking at scatbikes, maybe not. Although it's interesting that the Riptide is one of the few units that scatbikes will struggle to kill.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 TheKbob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

The game being broken for mono-dex is an excellent argument for not playing at all.

For the record, the BA can't bring any of those weapons systems in sufficient quantity to mathematically threaten a Riptide. AT least, not without tailoring.

I honestly believe a lot of 40ks woes could be fixed with capping games at 1000-1250 points, add character restrictions (Unique guys can only be in one, not both, lists), and move to a two list format a la Warmachine. It solves bad match up issues, allows you to play with lots of different toys, and it punishes skew lists hard. Add in scenarios that don't "turn limit" the game, but making it winnable when X victory points are achieved and boom, much better game.

If you feel fed up, pitch that. Worse case scenario is that it doesn't work, you at least tried to do something that didn't involve making people shelve their toys.

I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Martel732 wrote:


I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Sounds like you shouldn't take out on your opponents, peers, and friends what GW does to you. If you don't like it, why would they? Better yet, I agree, play something else.

 TheKbob wrote:

Martel732 wrote:


I have not much empathy for forcing people to shelve toys when GW has shelved 2/3 of the BA units by making them complete gak.

Sounds like you shouldn't take out on your opponents, peers, and friends what GW does to you. If you don't like it, why would they? Better yet, I agree, play something else.

Where's the line between taking it out on another list and leveling the playing field? The Riptide is fair against Eldar and Daemons, but certainly not against BA or DA.

Typical degradation into Riptide hate.

Ignore the riptide's existence momentarily.
Tau have always been the most disliked race in the game.
The Riptide is unfortunately a vessel for the hate.

 Boniface wrote:
Typical degradation into Riptide hate.

Ignore the riptide's existence momentarily.
Tau have always been the most disliked race in the game.
The Riptide is unfortunately a vessel for the hate.

I never disliked the Tau. I still don't. Only the Riptide, really. People usually don't like models that can't be removed by more lascannon shots than a typical marine list gets over the course of an entire game. Honestly, it's gotten to the point where I hate the Astartes more than any other faction, because of their insane background fluff.

Martel732 wrote:


Where's the line between taking it out on another list and leveling the playing field? The Riptide is fair against Eldar and Daemons, but certainly not against BA or DA.

It's the game designers problem to level the playing field, not the players. Play a different game if that's big of an issue.

Ow look, its this thread again. I play against my brothers orks regularly, and I have a hard time beating him, on average I think he is even ahead in our games with wins (granted we only play 1000 points and no riptide). But really, if you only killed 4 shield drones in an entire game, you are either lying, or just plain bad.

If he goes first yea the alpha strike will hurt, but good deployment can negate a lot. If you go first, he shouldn't have many markerlights left, and your vehicles will already be in his face. Kannons wrecks tau infantry with blasts, or crisis suits with insta death, even only killing shield drones will often make them run off the board due to LD fails.

Yea sometimes your opponents dice are on fire and you are crippled by the end of turn 1, it has happened to me, sometimes its the other way around. Sometimes you make some mistakes which cost you a game, gak happens.

Tau should be beating Orks handily.

Here we go again another hate rant against the Riptide led by Martel, sorry it is not overpowered no matter how much you wish it to be. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be perfectly fine. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you hate your BA's and think they completely suck, if thats the case get a new army already and stop making claims that other armies or units should be nerfed to the point so you can have an easy win.

Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

#Facts
Your facts of one BA player doing well in a store is NOT a representative of the wider community buddy.

 gmaleron wrote:
Here we go again another hate rant against the Riptide led by Martel, sorry it is not overpowered no matter how much you wish it to be. The only thing that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be perfectly fine. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you hate your BA's and think they completely suck, if thats the case get a new army already and stop making claims that other armies or units should be nerfed to the point so you can have an easy win.

The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

Then according to your logic the Dreadknight is completely undercosted as well, way to durable chassis with access to Psychic Powers, much better in CC and since you are bringing support units into this argument not to mention it can be augmented and supported by ANY other IoM army including Knights, Grav Cents in Drop Pods ect. And as I have said multiple times I agree the Ion Accelerator needs a points boost but in no way shape or form does it need to be nerfed like you guys are claiming. Also the thrust move is a random 2d6 so its not a sure thing, unlike the Dreadknight/

And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

 gmaleron wrote:

 liquidjoshi wrote:
The Riptide is OP. Far too cheap for far too durable a chassis. An Overcharged IA shot is objectively better than most other weapons in the same category. (Relatively) cheap access to Interceptor and toggleable skyfire. Its only real downside is BS3, which is easily mitigated by proper markerlight support. The model itself can see over most LOS blocking terrain, unless you go out of your way to make terrain tall enough.

Lack of CC ability shouldn't matter because thrust moves exist, as well as a 60" range gun.

Love, a Tau and FSE player.

Edit: "so you can have an easy win"
>Projecting

Then according to your logic the Dreadknight is completely undercosted as well, way to durable chassis with access to Psychic Powers, much better in CC and since you are bringing support units into this argument not to mention it can be augmented and supported by ANY other IoM army including Knights, Grav Cents in Drop Pods ect. And as I have said multiple times I agree the Ion Accelerator needs a points boost but in no way shape or form does it need to be nerfed like you guys are claiming. Also the thrust move is a random 2d6 so its not a sure thing, unlike the Dreadknight/

And hate to break it to you buddy, just because I play FSE does not mean I am looking for an "easy win" as you so claim. If I wanted an easy win I would play Space Marine + Imperial Knight ally cheese or one of the many other silly combinations that they can pull off (Skitarri in Drop Pods for example will be SO much fun). Keep on being a hypocrite i am well used to IoM bias

Here is why the Dreadknight isn't too durable.

Its the simple reason that it operates in the ideal range of every weapon that is perfect for killing it. While the Riptide operates at over twice the range of most weapons that are ideal for killing it, and it has the mobility to stay that way. Meanwhile the Dreadknight has to jump into danger to do its thing.

Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

 gmaleron wrote:
Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

 Rippy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
Here we go again another love rant for the Riptide led by Gmaleron, sorry it is overpowered no matter how much you wish it not to be. One of the things that needs to be changed is the Ion Accelerator cost and that would be better. Now you will rehash your same old worn arguments that have been proven wrong before and we will continue to go back and forth. We get it, you love beatings BA's and think they completely fair.

Lol the BA player at our store wins all the time and is one of the better players here, which is what makes his complaints interesting to say the least. If responding with solid facts and ideas is worn and rehashed then sure ill keep doing it, typical IoM bias haters going to hate!

#Facts
Your facts of one BA player doing well in a store is NOT a representative of the wider community buddy.

I'd probably table the guy using Tau as well. Whenever I hear about BA players tearing it up, there's always a caveat or a flaw or inferior competition.

And as always, my goal is a BALANCED experience, not an easy win. There are no easy wins for BA anyway, not even Orks or DA.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 gmaleron wrote:
Can be easily negated because not only can you take multiples of them at a much cheaper points cost and smart movement with its "shunt" move but the simple fact you can take ANY other Imperial army to support it. Watching x3 Dreadknights shunt forward combined with Drop Pods, Bikes and other nasty stuff works really well especially against Tau. Compared to the Riptide when it comes to base stats it only has 1 less wound and is 40 points cheaper.

I can kill Dreadknights easily with BA. Even three or four. In fact, they voluntarily come into my kill zone! Of their own free accord! How novel! Why can't your Tau kill them? Answer: you can, because you shoot even better and have a far superior codex. Now who is complaining?

So your excuse for your struggles against Tau is that other BA players who have success are playing inferior competition when you have no idea how competitive my store actually is or its a flaw because...what you are the best BA player in the game and everyone else only wins by flukes? Makes alot of sense....

And yeah because guess what the IoM including Blood Angels have access to quite a bit of weaponry and tools to deal with MC's imagine that. But then again you seem to always play on infinitely large tables with little to no terrain but then again it couldnt be your tactics or army list, of course not.

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I'll take on your BA "expert" any time, with any codex. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?Jump pack across the board into a huge kill zone? Get in their cracker box tanks and drive into a kill zone? Go descent of angels and deep strike into a kill zone?

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not. Why do Eldar players get to field awesome lists from a single codex but DA and BA players are expected to own a fething library?

And having to trot out an invisible grav star to hang with the Riptide is not furthering your premise.

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not. Why do Eldar players get to field awesome lists from a single codex but DA and BA players are expected to own a fething library?

Then that is your choice, just because you want to use mono BA does make other peoples armies or units "OP" just because you struggle with them. There are solutions, especially in a competitive setting that can be solved with Allies and if you are choosing not to then that is your fault not your opponents.

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
I'll take on your BA "expert" any time. If he's using pods, then his opponents are jello-heading their army deployment. If he's using Angel's Fury, then they are still jello-heading their army deployment. What else can BA do that matters to Tau at all?

Ever heard of Allies? IoM kind of has alot of them a fact that for some reason is always ignored...

I don't use allies. I'm not giving GW the $$ for those. I'm talking pure BA here. I wasn't talking about IoM, because C:SM does have solutions. BA do not.

Then that is your choice, just because you want to use mono BA does make other peoples armies or units "OP" just because you struggle with them. There are solutions, especially in a competitive setting that can be solved with Allies and if you are choosing not to then that is your fault not your opponents.

Again, why do the Eldar get to play from a single codex and dominate? Or hell, even C:SM? Tiggy star works just fine. The fact that you are appealing to allies just furthers the idea that BA are inferior to Tau by a substantial margin.

The Eldar book just got redone and the Dark Angels and Space Marines will be coming up soon later as it appears they are redoing every book that came out in 6th. I do not work for GW so I cannot explain that reasoning...wait I can they want you to spend $$ because IoM armies are the most popular? Its not that far fetched nor the fault of the players who want to play Eldar, you chose BA so you cant blame Eldar players for having access to one good book, you chose the army you play with not them.

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I thought you said Riptide wasn't OP though?

 gmaleron wrote:
The Eldar book just got redone and the Dark Angels and Space Marines will be coming up soon later as it appears they are redoing every book that came out in 6th. I do not work for GW so I cannot explain that reasoning...wait I can they want you to spend $$ because IoM armies are the most popular? Its not that far fetched nor the fault of the players who want to play Eldar, you chose BA so you cant blame Eldar players for having access to one good book, you chose the army you play with not them.

Blaming the victim. Awesome.

 Rippy wrote:

 gmaleron wrote:

 Rippy wrote:
I love watching Tau players try to justify their OP units.

Like I enjoy watching everyone else cry about while ignoring there OP units.

I thought you said Riptide wasn't OP though?

It isnt, however plenty of people have an opinion that it is, just like other people have opinions that IoM units are OP and likewise they are defended that they are not. Not here trying to change anyones opinion they have a right to think what they want, however I feel that it is a gross simplification to call a unit "OP" when it is being made a bigger bogeyman then it actually is.