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Martel732 wrote:
I don't have much to say about the Dreadknight. Never had any problems with them. They shunt in, and get killed. A lot. Maybe they should be a little cheaper. I hear Xeno players complain about it a lot, though. Hard to say.

" T6 3+ isn't good."

Beats the hell out of anything the BA have.

If you dont' have issues with the Dreadknight, you won't with the Errated Riptide. If you think they could be cheaper, then the Riptide should shave off a couple of points. They are fairly balanced once EWO and the IA are addressed. You never saw the HBC because it was balanced whereas you always saw the IA because it simply was too good for its points. That has been addressed.


T6 3+ has been overvalued for a while, look at most of the TMCs. There is a reason that most of them, especially the ground versions, needed large points decreases. They simply are not that durable.

Dropping the Riptide and Dreadknight to 3+AS would require a stiff decrease in points cost, and it would make the Riptide even better, because it could stay at range and put out better firepower per point. HBC is balanced, IA just needs to be balanced with it.

Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Double standar, and I said we can make a 165pts Shooting Dreadknight that is as effective as the HBC Riptide. You discount this comparison which is a double standard. The fact that no GK player finds having their Dreadknight sit back and shoot its Heavy Psycannon All game as effecient use of points is very telling actually.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Double standar, and I said we can make a 165pts Shooting Dreadknight that is as effective as the HBC Riptide. You discount this comparison which is a double standard. The fact that no GK player finds having their Dreadknight sit back and shoot its Heavy Psycannon All game as effecient use of points is very telling actually.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I find the Riptide incredibly difficult to deal with compared to the Dreadknight due to range and speed issues. The Dreadknight practically serves itself up for me every game. Maybe they should sit back against BA. I don't know. It's not like a typical BA can take them out at range.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Putting Tau comments in the Tau thread.

I say that for the Dreadknight only because of its near-suicide mission description. The 2+ armor on the Ritpide is far, far FAR more abusive.

Double standar, and I said we can make a 165pts Shooting Dreadknight that is as effective as the HBC Riptide. You discount this comparison which is a double standard. The fact that no GK player finds having their Dreadknight sit back and shoot its Heavy Psycannon All game as effecient use of points is very telling actually.

Maybe we'll just have to agree to disagree on this. I find the Riptide incredibly difficult to deal with compared to the Dreadknight due to range and speed issues. The Dreadknight practically serves itself up for me every game. Maybe they should sit back against BA. I don't know. It's not like a typical BA can take them out at range.

It all depends. Having their DK Rush you may just take enough pressure off the rest of their army to really help them make it to Czc. Different roles, sometimes you just need to make something a target for it to be effective.

The Dreadknight also has massive CC capabilities which give it flexibility. Comparing just Tau to BA isn't quite right, we need to factor in situations where a a Daemon or TMC is rushing you, the Riptide tries to stay alive and shoot another turn before being swept, while the Dreadknight can charge and take out most threats. Maybe against BA the Riptide is really tough to kill, but balance is about all the armies in scope. The Dreadknight is pretty balanced as is the HBC Riptide. The real problem was bring the IA and EWO upgrades in line.

"Having their DK Rush you may just take enough pressure off the rest of their army to really help them make it to Czc."

The thing about GK is that they have no way to enter close combat on their terms against BA. They shunt up close, they get assaulted. If I'm using Baal STrike force, they just lost. They shunt up outside assault range, I move back to where they can't assault me to set up an assault the next turn. The DK is just a victim of these circumstances. The DK's HTH capability means very, very little to me because it will never catch me in time. Just like it will never catch a Riptide. I mean, they will catch every grav shot and crumple before they can assault more than likely. Mobility is at least one thing that BA have. Unfortunately, that mobility is actually more useful for running away than catching something like a Riptide, because it's even faster.

The Riptide should be able to outrun a Daemon or TMC I would think. The probably is that greedy Tau players who play all IA have crippled themselves against lists with MCs while stomping meqs into the dirt. But BA have no MCs to take advantage of this. We just lose.

Even EWO means nothing to me, because why would they fire their IA with no support after my movement? BA firepower is not that great, so they are better off just letting me shoot and then firing in normal mode on their turn.

EWO, to me, was a thing with the old school Vanguard because getting to assault from DS was huge against Tau. Now I'm dropping in what? Triple melta ASM? Fragnoughts? Maybe Sternguard? The Riptide cares not for these and the other units will likely be bubblewrapped with Kroot, Riptides or terrain.

"Maybe against BA the Riptide is really tough to kill, but balance is about all the armies in scope."

So who can easily deal with a Riptide other than a grav star? Maybe Wraiths and TWC? Who is engaging in a shoot out and not just getting crushed? Even scatter bikes will struggle mightily wounding on 4+ and trying to get through 2+/5+++

Martel732 wrote:
"Having their DK Rush you may just take enough pressure off the rest of their army to really help them make it to Czc."

The thing about GK is that they have no way to enter close combat on their terms against BA. They shunt up close, they get assaulted. If I'm using Baal STrike force, they just lost. They shunt up outside assault range, I move back to where they can't assault me to set up an assault the next turn. The DK is just a victim of these circumstances. The DK's HTH capability means very, very little to me because it will never catch me in time. Just like it will never catch a Riptide. I mean, they will catch every grav shot and crumple before they can assault more than likely. Mobility is at least one thing that BA have. Unfortunately, that mobility is actually more useful for running away than catching something like a Riptide, because it's even faster.

The Riptide should be able to outrun a Daemon or TMC I would think. The probably is that greedy Tau players who play all IA have crippled themselves against lists with MCs while stomping meqs into the dirt. But BA have no MCs to take advantage of this. We just lose.

Even EWO means nothing to me, because why would they fire their IA with no support after my movement? BA firepower is not that great, so they are better off just letting me shoot and then firing in normal mode on their turn.

EWO, to me, was a thing with the old school Vanguard because getting to assault from DS was huge against Tau. Now I'm dropping in what? Triple melta ASM? Fragnoughts? Maybe Sternguard? The Riptide cares not for these and the other units will likely be bubblewrapped with Kroot, Riptides or terrain.

"Maybe against BA the Riptide is really tough to kill, but balance is about all the armies in scope."

So who can easily deal with a Riptide other than a grav star? Maybe Wraiths and TWC? Who is engaging in a shoot out and not just getting crushed? Even scatter bikes will struggle mightily wounding on 4+ and trying to get through 2+/5+++

Dammit,must lost a whole response. Here are the highlights...

Your vacuum comparison is highly flawed, 6" +2d6" is not nearly as fast as you think, lots of things can catch them. Dread knights Ono on one win, 12" move after a shunt is faster. A single combat squadding assault squad out of a Pod neutralizes a Riptide as it's easy to corner and even five marines will hold it up for half the game and may even sweep it.

You seem to ignore board edges, other units, terrain, Nova fail chance, and a lot of other things. Bubble wrap and FNP are not free.

EWO has lots of using, DSing BA are good targets.

The Riotide is a unit highly durable to long ranged firepower with moderate firepower, it loses long ranged showdown with equal points Las Preds, Wraithknights, even errataed, LR variants can do it, a Dreadknight with Heavy Psicannon can do it, etc.

Do you realize that a Riptide puts out less reliable damage than a Plegm Soulgringer at a higher cost. It's just not that devastating of firepower, most armies can ignore an effective battle Cannon per turn.

If you don't have the firepower to kill it at range, don't, close and assault it with anything and I mean anything. Kill the support instead, an unsupported IA Riptide is basically 5 Bs3 Battlecannon shots per turn.


Your hate for the a Riptide keeps derailing the thread. You believe the Dreadknight is balanced? Or should it be cheaper, just because your BA are well suited to dealing with them? Balance is not direct army comparisons, but in reference to the game as a whole.

Let's bring the discussion to BA units that need revision, or suggestions for other PA armies. This is not the Tau thread.

" You believe the Dreadknight is balanced? Or should it be cheaper, just because your BA are well suited to dealing with them?"

I believe there are lots of lists that can smoke a 2+ armor MC that is 12" away from. So I guess I'd call that balanced. I still don't like 2+ armor MCs at all, and I think they should be 3+ armor, with whatever points reduction that gives them.

I don't really have that many suggestions for BA units, because I think they are a failed concept in 7th ed. I think that firepower is still king by far and BA, conceptually, fare poorly at that game. They don't have the numbers and power armor is not enough protection to get them into HTH anymore. What's left to do? They are enslaved to costs in the main marine book, who can fall back on superior shooting. Even discounted sanguinary guard will be targeted by AP 2 and eliminated before they can do much damage, because they don't need the AP 2 guns to kill the rest of the BA list.

A list needs Wraiths or TWC to be an assault threat, and there's no tweaking BA to get something like that. They're just hordes of meq losers that will be gunned down by the kings of 40K: the firepower lists. An assault list now needs both speed and true resiliency, not fake power armor resiliency.

Martel732 wrote:
" You believe the Dreadknight is balanced? Or should it be cheaper, just because your BA are well suited to dealing with them?"

I believe there are lots of lists that can smoke a 2+ armor MC that is 12" away from. So I guess I'd call that balanced. I still don't like 2+ armor MCs at all, and I think they should be 3+ armor, with whatever points reduction that gives them.

I don't really have that many suggestions for BA units, because I think they are a failed concept in 7th ed. I think that firepower is still king by far and BA, conceptually, fare poorly at that game. They don't have the numbers and power armor is not enough protection to get them into HTH anymore. What's left to do? They are enslaved to costs in the main marine book, who can fall back on superior shooting. Even discounted sanguinary guard will be targeted by AP 2 and eliminated before they can do much damage, because they don't need the AP 2 guns to kill the rest of the BA list.

A list needs Wraiths or TWC to be an assault threat, and there's no tweaking BA to get something like that. They're just hordes of meq losers that will be gunned down by the kings of 40K: the firepower lists. An assault list now needs both speed and true resiliency, not fake power armor resiliency.

You are missing one very important thing, cost reductions increase the models on the table. More models means more return firepower and assault threat, means less enemies and less firepower.

It's not a failed concept, just improperly costed. So, what is miscosted in my SM errata? SM should suffer from the same problems. A 10% reduction in cost is massive, and puts a ton of extra models on the table by turn 3-4. This defeatist attitude isn't helpful. The majority of the balance problems can be resolved, and don't forget to look at the other errata, most of those king lists you de referenced have taken major hits. All combined things get much better. You just can't see it through your expire trial bias.

The SM are still packing more efficient air units, grav cents (even nerfed they are better than anything the BA can field by far), TFCs, better chapter tactics, better FW support, better special characters, and biker troops.

Let me look at the SM changes again very carefully here.

I don't see any price drops on the stuff I usually use. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't have my marine book in front of me. I guess maybe I'd start using some of the stuff I don't use now? But giving a marine even a 5 pt upgrade really increases how much you lose when it gets fragged. I'm still finding that my marine units are dying too quickly to get good use out of what upgrades I do give them. I never use pistols or power weapons as it is, and I'm not sure I'd start even at these prices. I'm not seeing the 10% reduction on the stuff that I use.

I'm still seeing lists built around grav cents, which BA just don't have. And let's not forget the poor DA in all of this. They have nearly all the problems of the BA plus a couple more.

Martel732 wrote:
The SM are still packing more efficient air units, grav cents (even nerfed they are better than anything the BA can field by far), TFCs, better chapter tactics, better FW support, better special characters, and biker troops.

Let me look at the SM changes again very carefully here.

I don't see any price drops on the stuff I usually use. Maybe I'm missing something. I don't have my marine book in front of me. I guess maybe I'd start using some of the stuff I don't use now? But giving a marine even a 5 pt upgrade really increases how much you lose when it gets fragged. I'm still finding that my marine units are dying too quickly to get good use out of what upgrades I do give them. I never use pistols or power weapons as it is, and I'm not sure I'd start even at these prices. I'm not seeing the 10% reduction on the stuff that I use.

I'm still seeing lists built around grav cents, which BA just don't have. And let's not forget the poor DA in all of this. They have nearly all the problems of the BA plus a couple more.

Lists built around Grav? And how are they doing that without the normal GravStar shenanigans or stealing a Pod? Footslogging Grav are nowhere near as good as you think they are. Like I said, pretty much the best Grav Star left is a Tigerious one and it's more fragile and has to decide between likely getting Gat or likely getting a lower powered Invisibility. Sure,mother could load a couple on a StormRaven, but you've already said that's worthless.

More efficient Air, you mean the Stormtalon I take it, or AA? The Raven is still good, and cheap Flakk are now available on lots of platforms.

5pt cheaper Sergeant, 5pt cheaper Plasmagun. On ASM that's 15 Pts and almost another marine in savings. Add in a Combi. plas and it is. 11 ASM vs 10 ASM is 110% for 2xPlasma/CombiPlas. What have you been using?

DA will be getting the same treatment, so SM base pricing plus rebalanced for their specialty stuff. When they receive competitive pricing on their units they'll be quite a bit better and on par with SM, BA, SW, and GK.

You seem to be missing that the worst offenders from other codices won't be as bad, and when the best other codices being is your yardstick you can't use pre errata comparisons.

I may get BA or AM out tomorrow. I know the last PA sexes will be easy to do, just lots of typing.

"What have you been using? "

I haven't been using ASM at all. Because they are bad. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't arm them with rapid fire weapons.

". Like I said, pretty much the best Grav Star left is a Tigerious one and it's more fragile and has to decide between likely getting Gat or likely getting a lower powered Invisibility. "

I'm just saying that while it is very much nerfed, it's still much better than anything the BA have.

Maybe give the BA their FNP bubble back on priests. That way we can pretend to be almost as good as Necrons. Except without wraiths or Gauss. Or flying transports.

Martel732 wrote:
"What have you been using? "

I haven't been using ASM at all. Because they are bad. And even if I did, I certainly wouldn't arm them with rapid fire weapons.

". Like I said, pretty much the best Grav Star left is a Tigerious one and it's more fragile and has to decide between likely getting Gat or likely getting a lower powered Invisibility. "

I'm just saying that while it is very much nerfed, it's still much better than anything the BA have.

Maybe give the BA their FNP bubble back on priests. That way we can pretend to be almost as good as Necrons. Except without wraiths or Gauss. Or flying transports.

ASM have some uses, Plasma and Rapid Fire isn't terrible.m good shooting the turn it drops and potentially the next turn. Otherwise, on the table it's two turns of Plasma fire while closing range. If you need to assault, don't shoot.

A special rule allowing a consolidation after DS would really open up options for BA.

And you think this far less powerful GravStar would be the norm, far from it. We'd see a variety of different builds. You've never seen Footslogging GravCents and still think they are better than everything BA has. Not true.

FNP bubble is an option, but let me get the preliminary BA Errata done and I'll address each unit in turn.

Added a first draft of Codex: Blood Angels

Biggest change was adding a Blood Angels Chapter Tactic which includes Furious charge and the ability for Jump Infantry to move 2" after arriving via Deepstrike.

Furious Charge Alone was not enough to offset the Chapter Tactics available to C:SM

Also, moved ASM back to Troops.

Repriced or modified unique units in kind as well as applied the C:SM pricing to everything in C:BA.

"Also, moved ASM back to Troops. "

Oh, really? That actually changes things quite a bit, there. That's more jump pack bodies or triple-special in a Rhino bodies.

Martel732 wrote:
"Also, moved ASM back to Troops. "

Oh, really? That actually changes things quite a bit, there. That's more jump pack bodies or triple-special in a Rhino bodies.

Yes, BA screams allow Chainsword Bolt Pistol models everywhere. Though, I don't know if the Rhino/Drop pod Upgrade should be free. I'm thinking it should be a 3pts/model discount for balance's sake.

I thought that change alone makes BA different enough from SM. Assault based bodies with dual specials rolling around in Rhinos or falling from the sky with Jetpacks or Drop Pods. At worst they are Marines with CCW/Pistol and a better special weapons selections.


Edit: Biggest problem I have with that change is internal balance. Free transport is a problem, should be either 3pts/model or a flat 15pt discount. Giving up a Bolter for a CCW isn't terrible, but dual Special access could cause some minmaxing problems...

ASM will prove to be strictly superior for the points compared to Tacticals except on foot over 12" and without access to Heavy weapons.

Thoughts?



Automatically Appended Next Post:
5-26-15 Changed To

Assault Squad: 70pts, 14pts/model *Moved From Fast Attack
Wargear: Remove Jump Pack
The entire squad may take Jump Packs... 3pts/model
Up to two Space Marines may replace their Bolt Pistols with one of the following... Flamer: 5pts; Hand Flamer: 5pts; Plasma Pistol: 7pts; Meltagun: 10pts; Plasma Gun: 10pts; Inferno Pistol: 10pts;
May upgrade the Space Marine Sergean to a Veteran Sergeant... 5pts;
Dedicated Transport: The unit may select a Drop Pod, Rhino, or Razorback as a Dedicated Transport.
*Remove "The entire squad may remove their jump packs...."

Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

I just made them packless for 3pts/model discount, purchase a transport as needed or upgraded to ASM with Jump Packs. Same effect, but cleaner to implement. The free Pod/Rhino was problematic because a five man was only giving up 15pts worth of Jump Packs for a 35pt transport.

I think Tacticals got better with their ability to field 2 specials or 2 heavies in a ten man squad and those specials and heavies being more cost effective. Ten marines and two heavy weapons combat squaded isn't terrible and good for back field objectives, even gives a Razorback for some more ranged punch for a price tag just north of 200pts. They do MSU at range pretty good. Hell, even combat squadding with two heavy Weapon in a Rhino with cover isn't terrible. Gives one footslogging objective grabber and a pair of heavy weapons in a metal box.

For BA, Tacticals would rarely ever be better than ASM, with the only reason being access to Heavy weapons and backfield support. For Regular marines I feel they'll get more band for their buck now, and Obsec marines are a pain when combat squadding, three units for 175ps +Special/Heavy weapons is fairly cheap and durable units. 2x5 Marines out of a pod each with a different special weapons is significantly better than 2x5 out of a pod with one special weapon.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

I just made them packless for 3pts/model discount, purchase a transport as needed or upgraded to ASM with Jump Packs. Same effect, but cleaner to implement. The free Pod/Rhino was problematic because a five man was only giving up 15pts worth of Jump Packs for a 35pt transport.

I think Tacticals got better with their ability to field 2 specials or 2 heavies in a ten man squad and those specials and heavies being more cost effective. Ten marines and two heavy weapons combat squaded isn't terrible and good for back field objectives, even gives a Razorback for some more ranged punch for a price tag just north of 200pts. They do MSU at range pretty good. Hell, even combat squadding with two heavy Weapon in a Rhino with cover isn't terrible. Gives one footslogging objective grabber and a pair of heavy weapons in a metal box.

For BA, Tacticals would rarely ever be better than ASM, with the only reason being access to Heavy weapons and backfield support. For Regular marines I feel they'll get more band for their buck now, and Obsec marines are a pain when combat squadding, three units for 175ps +Special/Heavy weapons is fairly cheap and durable units. 2x5 Marines out of a pod each with a different special weapons is significantly better than 2x5 out of a pod with one special weapon.

I agree they got better, but it's just depressing that the method of improvement was just more AP 2 shots or templates. The way the game works out, the grenades, S, and WS are all mostly wasted.

Martel732 wrote:

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
Get rid of the free transport; just make the bonus 3pts/model. Not that anyone will ever use a 10 man ASM squad when 5 of them get a three special weapon alpha strike.

I hate tactical marines so much. I wish there was a way to make them remotely fearsome, but I have given up on this for the sake of the overall balance of the game.

I just made them packless for 3pts/model discount, purchase a transport as needed or upgraded to ASM with Jump Packs. Same effect, but cleaner to implement. The free Pod/Rhino was problematic because a five man was only giving up 15pts worth of Jump Packs for a 35pt transport.

I think Tacticals got better with their ability to field 2 specials or 2 heavies in a ten man squad and those specials and heavies being more cost effective. Ten marines and two heavy weapons combat squaded isn't terrible and good for back field objectives, even gives a Razorback for some more ranged punch for a price tag just north of 200pts. They do MSU at range pretty good. Hell, even combat squadding with two heavy Weapon in a Rhino with cover isn't terrible. Gives one footslogging objective grabber and a pair of heavy weapons in a metal box.

For BA, Tacticals would rarely ever be better than ASM, with the only reason being access to Heavy weapons and backfield support. For Regular marines I feel they'll get more band for their buck now, and Obsec marines are a pain when combat squadding, three units for 175ps +Special/Heavy weapons is fairly cheap and durable units. 2x5 Marines out of a pod each with a different special weapons is significantly better than 2x5 out of a pod with one special weapon.

I agree they got better, but it's just depressing that the method of improvement was just more AP 2 shots or templates. The way the game works out, the grenades, S, and WS are all mostly wasted.

I agree with you. But Tactical marines are all about the application of the right tools, and 40k pretty much mandates that being special and heavy weapons. And Tactials rarely find themselves in situation where S, WS, and their grenades are used at all. It is another shooting edition of 40k... and those kinds of things are well out of the scope of these errata.

Ideally it isn't just AP2 or Templates, the ML with or without Flakk and the Heavy Bolter should be more appealing as options. 15pts for S8 AP3, S4 AP6 Blast, or S7 AP4 Skyfire is pretty versatile and should be a fitting option for Tacticals. The more viable options the better.

The single heavy weapon is never going to fit into a tac squad, I think. That's one of their big failings, conceptually.

Martel732 wrote:
The single heavy weapon is never going to fit into a tac squad, I think. That's one of their big failings, conceptually.

I agree, that is why I made it 2 Specials or Heavies on a ten member squad. The flexibility it offers seems to be the fix they need.

 Zagman wrote:

Martel732 wrote:
The single heavy weapon is never going to fit into a tac squad, I think. That's one of their big failings, conceptually.

I agree, that is why I made it 2 Specials or Heavies on a ten member squad. The flexibility it offers seems to be the fix they need.

It still kinda sucks to have to take 8 bolter bodies to get two heavies. But it's better than the current situation.

So, thoughts on dropping the Melee Weapons Power Fist down to 20pts and the Thunderhammer to 25pts? Or creating two costs New lower/Old with the old prices for anything that isn't an HQ. A Powerfist should really not cost the same on a Sergeant as it does on a Chapter Master etc.

Also, increasing the cost of Artificer Armour to 25pts?

Breaking into the discussion a bit, the Black Templar characters could use some tweaks. Both Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion need some serious help.

The Emperor's Champion either needs a massive buff (he's 10 points cheaper than a Captain with the Burning Blade and AA under your updated rules) or he needs to have his points cost slashed more or less in half.

Suggestion:

Make the Black Sword S:User+2, AP2, Instant Death. You're still paying 140 points for a 2-wound low-A model, but at least now he'll scare the living hell out of big things, the very targets he should be going after.

Helbrecht is sort-of fine as he is, my only beef is that the Sword of the High Marshals isn't a Relic Blade. If there's one weapon in the Codex that ought to be, it's that. Upping its S to 6 wouldn't break Helbrecht, since he'd still be AP3, but it'd mean he'd at least have better than a 50/50 chance at wounding marines.

Grimaldus is... I don't even know where to start. Chaplains in general need so much help that it's silly.

 AlmightyWalrus wrote:
Breaking into the discussion a bit, the Black Templar characters could use some tweaks. Both Grimaldus and the Emperor's Champion need some serious help.

The Emperor's Champion either needs a massive buff (he's 10 points cheaper than a Captain with the Burning Blade and AA under your updated rules) or he needs to have his points cost slashed more or less in half.

Suggestion:

Make the Black Sword S:User+2, AP2, Instant Death. You're still paying 140 points for a 2-wound low-A model, but at least now he'll scare the living hell out of big things, the very targets he should be going after.

Helbrecht is sort-of fine as he is, my only beef is that the Sword of the High Marshals isn't a Relic Blade. If there's one weapon in the Codex that ought to be, it's that. Upping its S to 6 wouldn't break Helbrecht, since he'd still be AP3, but it'd mean he'd at least have better than a 50/50 chance at wounding marines.

Grimaldus is... I don't even know where to start. Chaplains in general need so much help that it's silly.

Thanks for the feedback. Yeah, Black Templars definitely need some more work. I have little experience with them, so your feedback is great. I'll take it into consideration, if you wouldn't mind I would like to see what you would suggest for point values for those unit.

Helbrecht could probably stay at 180 with the S6 change, it's not like he's going to break the game, what with needing to actually get to CC and being AP3 and all.

An Emperor's Champion with S6 AP2 Instant Death (and an extra attack from the sword going one-handed) would, in my opinion, probably not be broken at 140 points. He still only has 2 wounds and does nothing for your army other than kill things in close combat. For example, Khan, an HQ choice of comparable price at 150 (is that with or without bike BTW? You haven't specified). He gives Scout to more or less your entire army, and unlocks Bikes as Troops to boot if he's on Moondrakkan. A 140-point Emperor's Champion with 4 attacks on the charge at S6 AP2 ID would be dangerous, sure, but he has to actually get to where he's going, and if he gets swarmed by mooks, he's toast.

Regarding Grimaldus, and Chaplains in general really, the changes needed are probably outside the scope of what you're trying to do. Even at 100 points, an 85-point decrease, Grimaldus would still be so-so at best. The old BT book had its issues, but at least you could take 3-wound Chaplains with some groovy wargear and kill people dead.

If I can throw in my two cents as far as grey knights go.

Return of their "true grit" special rule where their stormbolters counted as pistols in close combat. although they could change the name to something like "titan pattern stormbolters" as they look very different from other storm bolters, being wrist mounted and all.

either introduce actual heavy weapons or give grey knights grav webs so their purgation squads can treat their special weapons as rapid fire or assault or something. right now purgation squads are pointless next to purifiers and paladins

all units get 6++ if they do not already have an invulnerable save. yeah I know it's a sisters thing, but grey knights are supposed to be marines +1 and i think this would make them that without it being too OP

AlmightyWalrus wrote:Helbrecht could probably stay at 180 with the S6 change, it's not like he's going to break the game, what with needing to actually get to CC and being AP3 and all.

An Emperor's Champion with S6 AP2 Instant Death (and an extra attack from the sword going one-handed) would, in my opinion, probably not be broken at 140 points. He still only has 2 wounds and does nothing for your army other than kill things in close combat. For example, Khan, an HQ choice of comparable price at 150 (is that with or without bike BTW? You haven't specified). He gives Scout to more or less your entire army, and unlocks Bikes as Troops to boot if he's on Moondrakkan. A 140-point Emperor's Champion with 4 attacks on the charge at S6 AP2 ID would be dangerous, sure, but he has to actually get to where he's going, and if he gets swarmed by mooks, he's toast.

Regarding Grimaldus, and Chaplains in general really, the changes needed are probably outside the scope of what you're trying to do. Even at 100 points, an 85-point decrease, Grimaldus would still be so-so at best. The old BT book had its issues, but at least you could take 3-wound Chaplains with some groovy wargear and kill people dead.

Thanks for the feedback, I'll keep your thoughts in mind when I look at them. THough, my work is soon to be obsolete I feel...

Renesco P. Blue wrote:If I can throw in my two cents as far as grey knights go.

Return of their "true grit" special rule where their stormbolters counted as pistols in close combat. although they could change the name to something like "titan pattern stormbolters" as they look very different from other storm bolters, being wrist mounted and all.

either introduce actual heavy weapons or give grey knights grav webs so their purgation squads can treat their special weapons as rapid fire or assault or something. right now purgation squads are pointless next to purifiers and paladins

all units get 6++ if they do not already have an invulnerable save. yeah I know it's a sisters thing, but grey knights are supposed to be marines +1 and i think this would make them that without it being too OP

Truegrit is sorely missed, but with having IRWs I wouldn't add it back. That is what makes GK tricky to balance, they all have a damned power weapon and group force weapon and are Psykers. I don't want to use 6++ across the board, doesn't feel right.

Purgation squads do need some love. I don't know why I didn't readdress them. They need some kind of rule to give them a boost, I was thinking about simply giving them Relentless or Slow and Purposeful so they can fire on the move. Thoughts? I don't want to add more than a single special rule or write an original special rule if possible.

Firstly, I want to thank you Zagman for the huge amount of work you have done in your valiant efforts to bring the utterly broken game closer to a balanced state. I've been thinking of something like this for quite a good time myself, but haven't had the time on my hands to start it, nor the needed knowledge to do it for all the armies. I like what you're doing, evening the gaps both inside the codices and between them. Keep up the good work!

Here's a list of my thoughts concerning the balance errata of SM/BA, mostly the latter as it is my main army.

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I think that Captain Tycho is currently somewhat obsolete at 130pts (DC version +15pts), as he has lost his ld buff and S:User AP2 armorbane melee attacks, and now only totes his relic combi-melta and digital weapons - not even a chainsword to give him a +1A in combat. He could be discounted further (at least digital weapons went down 5pts), or be given back his old badass melee attacks (he's still footslogging), in which case I would even be fine with a price increase (up to 150pts I think).

Chaplain Lemartes should be at least be made similiar to many other unit leader characters - if he is taken alongside a unit of Death Company, he shouldn't take up a whole elites slot by himself. Pointswise I think he is fine when given the same price drop as the regular Chaplains (good bye Reclusiarchs ).

Astorath the Grim would be in order for the chaplain price drop too, also because his axe is no longer S6 AP2, two handed, forcing re-rolls on invulnerable saves, but rather just a power axe, two handed, with the instant death USR on a roll of '6' to hit, decreasing his reliability against characters with a proper invulnerable save and average strenght when hitting. The axe could be S:+2 AP2, two handed, with either the old inv. re-rolling or the current ID on '6' to hit. Or maybe a regular power axe, but two handed and with ID USR - would that be too good?

I think that Sanguinary Priests should be able to upgrade to terminator armor for equal cost as other characters.

Also, I would suggest that the regular Terminator Squad would be given the option to carry the Company Standard for the regular price, replacing a power fist (no, you don't hold stuff with those fists )

Why is Baal Predator 110pts, while a regular Predator stands at 75pts (with overcharged engines)? I feel like this is an oversight on the pricing, because I don't think that the upgrade from autocannon to TL assault cannon is really worth the 35pts when TL lascannon is only 15pts. I think the Baal Predator's cost should be further cut (95-100pts) to be more in line with the regular predator, unless it was given back Scout USR. Even then the price difference feels a bit steep.

On another note, I think either Baal Predator or Storm Raven should be moved from HS to FA to give more options on the FA choices, especially now that the Assult Marines were moved back to the Troops section.

I'm not sure how the Command Squads will be handled in the coming marine codices, but I feel like they should be available 1/HQ choice without taking a slot, like they used to. Not that they'd be an overly used unit anyway, but now they compete with the rest of the army's great melee infantry, and the whole lot better Chapter Banner toters, the Sanguinary Guard.

Also techmarines could be made "slotless" HQ choices again in the marine codices, maybe 0-2/3 per detachment. HQ choice with 1W just doesn't seem appropriate for a full slot.

Should Scout Sergeants be given access to all the special pistols instead of just plasma, as the heavy flamer was freed up to all units able to choose from heavy weapons? Also, regarding heavy flamer, I think it might be wise to restrict them to a 0-1 upgrade for tactical squads, as otherwise the upgrade completely invalidates the regular flamer upgrade for the unit. Sternguards are okay with that I think, and Devastators could turn out to be pretty interesting choice with 4 heavy flamers when podded at the enemy (might want to exclude them from Devastators, or?).

I would also like to address some of the Blood Angels' relics:

In the light of your points revision, I believe that the Valour's Edge (AP2 power sword) should cost 15pts instead of 20pts, as the lowered AP is only worth 5pts while the sword itself is currently 15pts, as opposed to your suggested 10pts. Or maybe make the sword MC at 20pts.

Also, as you see jump packs worth 10pts instead of current 15pts, I would see a point in bringing Angel's Wings down to 20pts from 25pts.

As the worst offender in the relics section of the codex, I think that the Fury of Baal (MC plasma pistol with no gets hot! USR) is in need of big change at 25pts. Would it be too good if it was a MC inferno pistol with 12" (or 9") range at 20pts, as you suggest 10pts base for the inferno pistols? I don't feel plasma fits BA that well, feels more like a DA relic to me as it is currently (plasma relic + it is bad ).

There's a few relics in need of tweaking in the Shield of Baal: Exterminatus too, on the BA side I think - but let's stick to the codices now.

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I may come up with other thoughts for this and other balance erratas. Hopefully my "re-balancing" suggestions are at least somewhat sensible. Also, sorry for the long post.