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 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TIL that you can totally refute math by simply saying "no" when people explain it to you.

I wish I could exalt this more than once.

OP, if you're so upset about the Ultramarine rules, then just dunk your whole army in Simple Green and go buy some yellow paint. It'll be way less effort than trying to convince the entire world that their math is wrong and your wrong math is right, trust me.

No I am stating an opinion and you guys are trying to knock it down because you're a bunch of trolls. I don't care what you faceless people think. You would only ever reply to such a post if you were trying to be deliberately argumentative.

IF are mark 2 and 3. I have a mark 4 army with all the ultra legion stuff. Re painting ain't gonna happen.

Your army is obviously the Imperial Fists 1xxth Company, with no established fluff, which received a shipment of MkIV armor in the mail by mistake.

The only person trolling this thread is you by putting a bucket on your head and banging on it with a stick whenever anyone tries to explain anything to you or offer an alternative.

Imperial Fists actually got quite a bit of MkIV armour when they quelled the rebellion on Mars if I recall correctly.

The only person coming off as a troll is you. Multiple people have even explained the maths to you, but you still insist they're wrong and have shown no maths of your own.

I posted my opinion on my army and Iam entitled to make that opinion as I spent a ton of money on it and spent many hours painting that monster. I don't consider the opinions of people who don't own that army and probably don't even have a forgeworld army worth considering.

Nothing you have said dissuades me from that and almost none of you have even bothered to look at other aspects of the legion rules or compare the ultra to other legions. Instead you seem to have some kind of vindictive desire to focus on one part of my opinion. Which even if what you are saying is true wouldn't change anything because it's still a terrible rule compared to T5 Iron Hands or rage world eaters or 3 dice morale word bearers. A 16 percent buff does not hold a candle to those buffs and not with such a mean penalty.

Plus some of you are just outright ignoring some of my posts where I discuss why I like taking troops even though I know they are worse an my preference would hve been for ultra to be closer to the Imperial Fists.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 ImAGeek wrote:
Imperial Fists actually got quite a bit of MkIV armour when they quelled the rebellion on Mars if I recall correctly.

The only person coming off as a troll is you. Multiple people have even explained the maths to you, but you still insist they're wrong and have shown no maths of your own.

FW brigs out legion upgrade kit tailored to a specific mark of armor and a legion. IF is a mark 3. So you can use them. But them it wouldn't be a proper IF army as imagined by FW.

IF are better with bolters, although UM get their buffs to all weapons.

Seriously? You don't HAVE to use the upgrades. Doesn't make it any less an IF army if you don't. All they mean is that FW only make them for one mark per legion and MkIII was the one they picked. The Templar Brethren or Phalanx Warders are in MkIV.

And just because the rules don't match your preference, it doesn't make them bad. Plus, just because people might not have FW armies, doesn't mean they can't comment on the rules. No one said anything to do with your opinion was wrong either, just that your maths objectively was.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
I posted my opinion on my army and Iam entitled to make that opinion as I spent a ton of money on it and spent many hours painting that monster. I don't consider the opinions of people who don't own that army and probably don't even have a forgeworld army worth considering.

Nothing you have said dissuades me from that and almost none of you have even bothered to look at other aspects of the legion rules or compare the ultra to other legions. Instead you seem to have some kind of vindictive desire to focus on one part of my opinion. Which even if what you are saying is true wouldn't change anything because it's still a terrible rule compared to T5 Iron Hands or rage world eaters or 3 dice morale word bearers. A 16 percent buff does not hold a candle to those buffs and not with such a mean penalty.

Plus some of you are just outright ignoring some of my posts where I discuss why I like taking troops even though I know they are worse an my preference would hve been for ultra to be closer to the Imperial Fists..

So basically... you're right, we're wrong. You're entitled to your opinion but we are not entitled to ours. The tax to express an opinion in this thread is a fully-painted Forge World 30k army, preferably Ultramarines. Which you have not shown us but would doubtlessly demand we show you. Converting your army to a ruleset you prefer is not an option. Offering evidence to counter your claims is not allowed.

0/10, man.

Perhaps emotions are running high in this thread. For my part, I am trying to convey that what might seem like an inconsequential reroll to you, actually results in a very significant increase in damage output across your whole army.
Enough of an improvement that Ultramarines are consistently applying some of the best firepower of any Legion, regardless of their choice in weapon.

Ultramarines gain a not-insignificant damage increase with their shooting, penalized by their command chain.
Iron Hands gain a very significant increase against enemy shooting, penalized by their poor combat.
World Eaters gain a *massive* increase to combat effectiveness, penalized by lack of control.
Imperial Fists gain a significant increase to some of their shooting, penalized by being punished by the game turn.

This is repeated for every army and the effectiveness of your Legiones Astartes rule will vary with your army composition. As a player, you are responsible for building an army to take advantage of your rules as best you can.
Ultramarines offer some benefits to Tactical-spam, which you seem interested in. I'd say they certainly suit this playstyle better than other Legions such as Emperors Children or Night Lords.

However to truly maximise your effectiveness, you need to mix in supporting elements and more exotic weaponry. Otherwise you are not playing at peak efficiency. You might not care about this and simply want to play a visually impressive army; of course this is fine.

But it is frustrating to see a player neglect his advantages, build an army that tries to play a game it is not built for, and then write the whole package off as bad.
It is not bad, it has been misapplied. Build an Ultramarines army with the Legion rule in mind and you will have far more success, being able to take on the worst that 30k has to offer.
Compounding this by refuting maths is just the icing on the cake.

So now you're accusing me of being a liar?


Yeah Iam so blatantly going to repaint 100 models.

No one called you a liar.

And Mozzmanx, spot on. Like I said, their rules might not be to your taste or suit your play style, that doesn't make them bad.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Night lords get an impressive set of boosts to compensate. Ultramarines don't.


And I will repeat what I was saying. You are ignoring the rules of probability. In order to have a chance to roll to wound you have to have actually hit in the first place. Saying it is a flat 16 percent buff on all shooting is incorrect because you're assuming you have already successfully hit. This is why you have to multiply the percentage by 2/3 to reflect that actual chance of you getting to re roll a one in the first place. So hand waving a 36 hits and saying your shooting is 16 percent better because it's a one in six chance of a re roll as you're presuming you've made 36 hits and skipped a whole chain.

So under this logic, Imperial Fists suck because you have to still hit anyway.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

 j31c3n wrote:

Slayer-Fan123 wrote:
TIL that you can totally refute math by simply saying "no" when people explain it to you.

I wish I could exalt this more than once.

OP, if you're so upset about the Ultramarine rules, then just dunk your whole army in Simple Green and go buy some yellow paint. It'll be way less effort than trying to convince the entire world that their math is wrong and your wrong math is right, trust me.

No I am stating an opinion and you guys are trying to knock it down because you're a bunch of trolls. I don't care what you faceless people think. You would only ever reply to such a post if you were trying to be deliberately argumentative.

IF are mark 2 and 3. I have a mark 4 army with all the ultra legion stuff. Re painting ain't gonna happen.

Well your opinion is fething wrong because you have yet to show math proving you right. Until you do as such, don't bother commenting because you're making yourself look unintelligent.

Right.

I am gonna say it again because you're obviously going to keep rattling on about this tiny part of my OP.

A 16 percent buff is still bad, even if I agreed with you. You have to hit them with another unit first. For that you get an extra 1-2 re rolls per 10 wounds. Then I look at army wide infiltrators, rage, t5, outnumbering rules and wonder why you act like Iam supposed to be impressed by that.

Plus you're all conspicuously avoiding any mention of the army wide pinning rule and free VP.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Right.

I am gonna say it again because you're obviously going to keep rattling on about this tiny part of my OP.

A 16 percent buff is still bad, even if I agreed with you. You have to hit them with another unit first. For that you get an extra 1-2 re rolls per 10 wounds. Then I look at army wide infiltrators, rage, t5, outnumbering rules and wonder why you act like Iam supposed to be impressed by that.

Plus you're all conspicuously avoiding any mention of the army wide pinning rule and free VP.

They already point out UM not the only one that give free VP, conspicuously avoided that. The Pinning must suck on one of the best LD around, yup game breaker there.

And my god, the most combined arms force gets bonuses by working together, one that the math shows make a all rounder army good at you know all around. Not great but good as it meant to be, as a jack-of-all-trade force.

Master of signal
10 tacs
5 plasma support squad
10 tacs
5 plasma support squad
10 tacs
5 plasma support squad
3 rapier
3 rapier
3 rapier
Land speeder mm
Land speeder mm
7 autocannons hw squad
7 autocannons hw squad
7 autocannons hw squad

Pretty damn solid um army right their !

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
A 16 percent buff is still bad, even if I agreed with you.

And, again, this is not something you get to choose to agree with. It's a 16.5% buff, no matter how many times you post bad math attempting to "prove" that it isn't. You are indisputably wrong, and every time you try to defend your claim or present it as some kind of "opinion" issue those of us who understand math just eyeroll at you.

As for it being bad, it really isn't. You praised the IF buff which gives a 25% firepower increase to bolters and the Ultramarines buff gives a 16.5% bonus to all weapons, as long as you focus fire on a single target (which you're doing anyway).

Then I look at army wide infiltrators, rage, t5, outnumbering rules and wonder why you act like Iam supposed to be impressed by that.

Now let's look at those rules in your version of 30k (which may or may not be the one that everyone else plays, but we'll grant your claims for the sake of discussion):

Army-wide infiltrators sucks because it doesn't apply to tanks. And, as you've previously stated, 30k is a game of tanks and LoW. So who cares if you can infiltrate a meaningless tactical squad that will just be insta-killed by a Fellblade.

Rage is decent, but not that impressive. You get +1 attack when charging (either a 50% or 33% increase in damage), but only when charging. And since the game is all about tanks and LoW most of the killing will be done in the shooting phase and you'll rarely be charging to get that bonus.

T5 is worthless. Tanks and LoW wound T5 on the same 2+ as they wound T4.

Outnumbering is mediocre at best for the same reason that rage is.

Oops, looks like Ultramarines still have one the best army-wide rules in your version of 30k.

I'll chime in here and note, Totalwar1402.

The only person trolling in this thread is you. Everyone else here has offered helpful (and mathematically sound) advice on how the ultramarines in 30k are in fact buffed over standard legion rules.

The fact that you have started throwing out the term troll in-and-of-itself proves that you are in fact, trolling.

It's actually a pretty substantial boost to the force when you stop and consider that the bonus conferred works for any and all weaponry. It's a wonderful synergistic effect that you need to learn how to use effectively, rather than spending time whining about it on here.

Just my .02 pennies.

Take it easy.

-Red__Thirst-

Post Script: Yes, this post was meant to sound the way you read it. Calling a spade a spade here.

Actually you can give tanks infiltrators and outflank with some of the various legion rules. Namely as dedicated transports. Alpha legion, Raven Guard and iron hands spring to mind.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Actually you can give tanks infiltrators and outflank with some of the various legion rules. Namely as dedicated transports. Alpha legion, Raven Guard and iron hands spring to mind.

That only applies to dedicated transports though, not tanks in general. And since you've already stated that Rhinos suck and will never be used in your version of 30k that leaves the weak and overpriced Land Raiders as your only option for outflanking/infiltrating. A 16.6% firepower boost like Ultramarines get is worth a lot more than outflanking a LR in your version of 30k.

I've given up halfway through the thread, but, Totalwar, I'm a maths teacher. You are wrong and they are right. Deal with it.

Well feth me, what the hell's happening in this thread!? Can't believe someone's convinced that the Ultra's Legion rules aren't worth. I'd love to be able to re-roll 1's to wound with my Volkites. It'd make them even more brutal than they are now. Seriously, are you sure 30K is for you? And yes, even I can tell your maths is wrong and I'm crap at maths.

Ah, just noticed who the OP was...

Even if we're pretend for a second that you're not mathematically wrong in your assessment of the Ultramarines legion rules, you completely glossed over me previous point.

Legion rules aren't meant to be viewed in a vacuum. You have to take them as a package, with the Primarch and Legion-specific units included. The Ultras get fantastic specific units and a great primarch. Maybe you're right and Rage is better than the 16% increased damage, but Angron is just a beatstick. That pales in comparison to potentially giving half your army Interceptor against a reserve-heavy list, or making your jetbikes scoring for those last-turn objective grabs. You're welcome to have the opinion that the Ultramarine legion rules suck, but I'd feel confident in saying most people don't agree with you. Maybe there are legions that are slightly better with everyone considered, but that shouldn't matter. 30k is a fluffy game primarily intended to give you awesome battles, not necessarily flawlessly balanced ones. If you have an issue with that I'm afraid you paid Forge World a lot of money for something that's not for you.

At first I though OP was just stubborn, but when he stated that our opinion isn't valid unless we have a 30K army I'm pretty sure he's trolling.

OP: Suck it up and admit you're wrong. You've been proven wrong multiple times, sticking your fingers in your ears and screaming "MY MATHS IS CORRECT, YOU GUYS JUST DON'T UNDERSTAND 30K" achieves nothing.

In an effort to make this slightly more constructive, perhaps we could discuss some initial thoughts about how to get the most from the army?

As a starter, I am not impressed by the Logos Lectora. The buffs are significant and 3 Troops is a pretty tame downside considering the quality of Ultramarine shooting. However the total lack of Deep Strike is a killer for me. Perhaps I am a Raven Guard at heart.
This is mostly because Deathstorms look like such a fantastic tool for the Ultramarines to mark up targets. They will arrive exactly where you need them, with the timing of Drop Pod Assault or reserves manipulation, and then saturate the landing zone with large templates. Everything you hit is then marked and it will come at a rock-bottom price. The Pod can also fire first without a care in the world because it doesn't have the Legion rule and wouldn't benefit anyway.
I'd say to take a couple of Deathstorms, 1 upgraded to DPA, to serve as target markers in your first 2 turns.

The army is also inherently built to spam shooting numbers and is above-average in every field. To that end, I'd stick to larger squads to make the most of your discounts and get boots on the field to really maximise that edge before combat hits.

Any thoughts on the Fulmentarus, Locutarus or Suzerain? In particular the latter 2 since the Terminators seem fairly straightforward in application.

I think the Logos Lectora is purely fluffy. I'm pretty sure it's based around the war on Calth, hence no deepstrike; everyone was already on the planet, or if they were in orbit they weren't in a position to come to aid. I don't think it's bad, it's bonuses are pretty good, it's just quite restrictive.

I think you would maybe be better off with smaller squads. I don't know. It's more expensive, but you get more opportunity to get the benefits from Interlocking Tactics.

The Suzerians look pretty good to my relatively untrained eye. Basically want to get them in melee with big scary things (they seem good against terminators, AP2 at initiative). The Fulmentarus are very expensive, you'll probably want 10 to get the benifit from their Petriarch Targeters. I'm also not sure I'd go for the missiles, a squad of these armed identically to the Seige Terminators from IW are like 100pts more or something. And I can't remember much about the Locutarus. They're probably better than normal assault marines though haha.

Wow, some of the things I have seen here are the exact opposite I have seen in 2 years of running my Night Lords. Support squads are worth their weight in gold. Period, no ifs no ands, no buts. They are hands down the best unit in the list and consistently do the most damage. Hell, just plain flamer squads are deadly. 135 points for five flamers and a drop pod? Has killed terminator squads and elder jet bike squads( + their farseer) in single volleys.

I disagree on which rules are worse though. Night Lords have that weight of numbers advantage which rocks, especially against anything you can wound, if you can wound it, you never need worse than a 5+ if you have them outnumbered. The disadvantage sucks worse than being pinned which the OP fails to mention. His rules all the HQs need to be killed. Night Lords are if the Warlord himself is killed, each unit in the army rolls to see if they run away.

Col. Dash wrote:
Wow, some of the things I have seen here are the exact opposite I have seen in 2 years of running my Night Lords. Support squads are worth their weight in gold. Period, no ifs no ands, no buts. They are hands down the best unit in the list and consistently do the most damage. Hell, just plain flamer squads are deadly. 135 points for five flamers and a drop pod? Has killed terminator squads and elder jet bike squads( + their farseer) in single volleys.

I disagree on which rules are worse though. Night Lords have that weight of numbers advantage which rocks, especially against anything you can wound, if you can wound it, you never need worse than a 5+ if you have them outnumbered. The disadvantage sucks worse than being pinned which the OP fails to mention. His rules all the HQs need to be killed. Night Lords are if the Warlord himself is killed, each unit in the army rolls to see if they run away.

Oh aye, Tactical Support squads are brilliant. OP seems to be running Ultramarines contrary to how they should be run. He's running big Heavy Infantry squads, Imperial Fists and Death Guard style. Tons of Bolters and bodies and not much to capitalise on the Ultramarines strengths. reckon he should be running multiple 10 man squads supported with Tactical Support Squads and Veteran Squads, Codex Astartes style! Along with these, Rapiers and Dreadnoughts. The re-roll itself seems to be better suited to having more of the smaller squads, but not set at full strength. Start off with the High BS/twin linked, low shot units first, then let rip with Rapiers with Quad Heavy Bolters, Tactical Support Volkites and Plasmas - that'll be a lot of 1's getting re-rolled for sure. Add Master of Signal for flavour.

I reckon lists built around the Delegatus or Pride of the Legion Rite of War would suit Ultramarines very nicely - lots of those nice 10 man Veteran Tactical Squads with a few tactical support squads. Juicy.

 BlaxicanX wrote:
But again, how does that compare to a flat "all bolters are BS5" and flat "all heavy support units get the tank hunters USR" type rules?

I thought Imperial Fists Heavy Support Squads get Tank Hunters. That is only one unit type, not any Heavy Support unit.

@OP: Take a look at the Emperor's Children special rules. Not too overwhelming, either.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:

FW brigs out legion upgrade kit tailored to a specific mark of armor and a legion. IF is a mark 3. So you can use them. But them it wouldn't be a proper IF army as imagined by FW.

Yep, no Mk IV in the Imperial Fists, none at all.

Personally I am inclined to agree with most everyone else, the bonus to ALL shooting seems better than the bonus to Bolters. But both are cool and neat for their perspective armies.

 Totalwar1402 wrote:
Right.

I am gonna say it again because you're obviously going to keep rattling on about this tiny part of my OP.

A 16 percent buff is still bad, even if I agreed with you. You have to hit them with another unit first.

Which really isn't that hard, given that in 30k you have to concentrate fire to bring anything down, unless your army literally consists entirely of Lords of War. You can use a lot of units to basically achieve this automatically, although the most reliable is the Deathstorm drop pod.

For that you get an extra 1-2 re rolls per 10 wounds.

If you use a Deathstorm pod, then anything shooting at that section of the board will cause 16% more wounds. That's a significant increase, when you consider that it applies to every unit in your army.

Then I look at army wide infiltrators,

Infantry and dedicated transports only. In any case, if they're infiltrating, they're just putting themselves in rapid fire range for your 60 bolters.

rage,

They have to reach combat to make use of it. That'll be fun when your army is more effective at shooting.

t5,

Still dies just as quickly to a krak missile or triple plasma predators, right?

outnumbering rules

Don't make a difference if they don't outnumber you in combat. If you have large squads, their rule won't do anything.

and wonder why you act like Iam supposed to be impressed by that.

Plus you're all conspicuously avoiding any mention of the army wide pinning rule and free VP.

It is a good rule. It makes your entire army more effective at shooting, for less of a drawback than other armies (Night Lords come to mind...). The opponent has to wipe out all of your HQ choices, rather than just your warlord.

Col. Dash wrote:
His rules all the HQs need to be killed. Night Lords are if the Warlord himself is killed, each unit in the army rolls to see if they run away.

Only units containing another Independent Character.

Seeds of Dissent: If the army Warlord is slain, all units containing another Independent character must take an immediate morale check.

Really, I never noticed that. I'll have to go look and see if that's a change from the original wording. I could have sworn it said all with Legion: Night Lord rules.