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Those gaunts as a bubblewrap... yeehaw. Nobody fields any flamers, or thunderfire cannons, or the new whirlwind battery. They will surely protect the biotitan!

Sure, but it means they have to spend at least a couple turns doing that.

Bubble wrap is supposed to die. and if it needs different tools than the Biotitan thats even better.

This is why I have a Harridan.

 Grey Templar wrote:
Sure, but it means they have to spend at least a couple turns doing that.

Bubble wrap is supposed to die. and if it needs different tools than the Biotitan thats even better.

200 points of thunderfire cannons or whirlwinds definitely won't take two turns to blow a hole in gaunt bubblewrap.

Even with bubble wrapping grav is still going to wreck a biotitan, the thing is massive, so you will need to max out a gaunt unit, or bring multiple to adequately wrap it. What I would recommend is GW just remove grav from the game. It is just a extremely broken mechanic.

So is Bladestorm, Markerlights, Invisibility and Overwatch.

GMC is a better rule than SHW due to increased line of sight, no d3 extra wounds on an Explodes! (which is easier to get than Instant Death due to the amount of high strength low-ap ranged weapons compared to ID melee weapons), easier access to Cover saves, FNP and getting an armour save.

It doesn't help that the Wraithknight is one of, if not the most undercosted unit in the game.

The problem with bio-titans is the same as that of other huge models from GW: because they look awesome and really intimidating, they are given a really, really high price tag, but rarely get the rules to make them worth it. This is the case of the Lord of Skulls, for example.

Investing around 1000 points in a single model is rarely a good idea outside of Apocalypse/really large games, regardless of your faction. Eggs in one basket and all that..

Finally; everything has a hard counter. Drop Pod Skitarii with Haywire will decimate a titan or a Lord of Skulls, for example, just like Grav will decimate a biotitan. Eldar D-flamers with a WWP will decimate both. If you really want to protect your biotitan against grav, just buy a Void Shield Generator and it's immune to it (assuming he doesn't get within the VSG's shield area)

GrafWattenburg wrote:
GMC is a better rule than SHW due to increased line of sight, no d3 extra wounds on an Explodes! (which is easier to get than Instant Death due to the amount of high strength low-ap ranged weapons compared to ID melee weapons), easier access to Cover saves, FNP and getting an armour save.

Eh, poison and snipers effect GCs. And Wraithknights can be hurt by S5. My Obelisk is immune to anything S7 or lower, so.....


They both have strengths and weaknesses. I don't think either is outright better.

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

Why would would an anti-personnel round have a chance of hurting Godzilla?

Not all sniper weapons are strictly anti-personnel. The TA for Skitarii, for example, is given Armourbane to represent the fact that it's firing a huge round and ripping clean through tanks and their crews.

It's a hard fix, but the biotitans do need a buff from what I've seen.

And that buff isn't just to flatout ignore their counter, grav weaponry. They already ignore Poisoned weapons and Sniper weapons.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

 cosmicsoybean wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

Good luck that happening. The IoM would flip out if they couldn't drop pod and instantkill whatever they want anymore.

Let's remove Strength D from Eldar and see how they'd feel.

Perfectly fine and they should be reverted anyways. I would rather have 5 d-flamers slowly making their way down the board than to have 2 pods drop down and erase any unit they please, or just have them drop onto any needed objectives. Even if you put blades into serpents, once you kill the vehicle they are basically useless.

They don't flat-out ignore sniper weapons and poison weapons. 20 Kroot with sniper rounds will put 1.149 wounds on a wraithknight; a radium jezzail will put 0.3 wounds on it (meaning a full squadron of 6 will put almost 2 on it).

20 Hormagaunts with toxin sacs charging a wraithknight will do statistically 1.13 wounds. (.5 x .17 x .33 x .67 x 60 = 1.13)

oz of the north wrote:
Even with bubble wrapping grav is still going to wreck a biotitan, the thing is massive, so you will need to max out a gaunt unit, or bring multiple to adequately wrap it. What I would recommend is GW just remove grav from the game. It is just a extremely broken mechanic.

Well yeah. You have to adequately wrap a giant point investment. You wouldn't leave a Baneblade or Warhound by itself with no support. Big things like that are vulnerable to things exactly like deep striking Cents.

 Psienesis wrote:
So is Bladestorm, Markerlights, Invisibility and Overwatch.

Overwatch is not an inherently broken mechanic, just armies can gets boosts to it sometimes. Also bladestorm and markerlights can be broken, but they fill gaps that the armies have, such as tau only being BS 3 and not psyker to give them ability to ignore cover and bladestorm on eldar guardians that are paper thin.

Invisibility is broken no denying that, fully agree with that. But grav. is added to an army that does not need it. It does not fill a gap it just makes games not fun and makes IoM way too overpowered.

The IOM is supposed to be OP. They're the heroes of the setting. No one complains that Batman kicks truckloads of ass in the Arkham Knight games.

I used to think that a balanced game would make things better, but eventually I realized that GW has no interest in producing something like that, and hasn't for awhile. So I gave up wishing for the things that would never come to pass, and started looking at the tools that were available to create that balanced game...

If you want to make a Marines vs Tyranids fight "fair", you gotta Forge The Narrative harder. That means, if there's 2k points of SM on the table, better have 20k points of Tyranids.

XD

Explain Eldar.

I actually agree that Marines do not need Grav, which should have appeared as an AdMech weapon system rather than as the Marine go-to heavy weapon. In AdMech list, Grav makes sense, and normally can't be taken in large numbers without a pretty huge tax.

SJ

 Ashiraya wrote:
Explain Eldar.

Well, you see, in the days of yore, there was created a group of beings that were the best at everything all the time forever, and they were also very, very pretty. And almost immortal. Some of them were good, some of them were evil.

And they were very, very popular amongst everyone who mattered, and adorned many the "Race" line of a CRS, as well as appearing as badly-drawn dirty pictures in notebooks.

These were the Elves.

And when Warhammer rose up from the muddy swamps and feudal castles of Fantasy and took to the stars that was 40K, the Elves went, too, and became the Eldar.

And since they are Elves, and the best at everything all the time forever and also very, very pretty... well, you have Eldar.

The issue lies more with Bio-Titans being ridiculously overpriced relative to other GCs. Cut their price down quite a bit and leave Grav alone. Grav is good for basically ONE thing. Killing heavily armored stuff. It blows against stuff with bad armor saves. It isn't stellar against vehicles. It has bad range. It only works on a relentless platform. It costs as much or more than weapons that are much more versatile. Grav is fine, all non-Eldar GCs are overpriced(read: the Wraithknight is horribly underpriced).

Grav is the only viable answer to Monstrous Creatures. THEE ONLY ONE! Otherwise SM players only other option is to be your punching bag, a mere witness providing sacrifices to your super-awesome-cool godzilla. Im tired of people with riptides, wraith constructs, black mace DPs & smashfucker complaining about grav. And yes, smashfucker is basically a MC. You wanna play hero hammer? Well guess what? I dont. Grav. ::drop mic::

As to the eldar, if your unfamiliar with hard core, old school Tolkien fandom you'll never understand the elf love. Wayback in the day D&D people suffeted from it too. Its a weird, perverse love. Like hentai and/or mlp fans (i find them interchangeable).

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

The SM player got lucky and you failed to support your hierophant properly in an apoc game. So you complain on the nets about how Biotitans are useless.

Where was the bubble wrap? The void shield generator? The shrouding from venomthropes/malanthropes? You can't possibly bring a biotitan to an apoc game and hope for it to survive without support. Or without such support why deploy it when there's drop pods in play? Come in from reserve and use its shooting.

But back to the luck thing.
Even without a cover save (which is foolish with access to malathropes and the silly GC rules which grant them one from terrain just like infantry) you should still only lose 5-6 wounds typically. Still a strong hit from a unit a third of is cost but not all that unheard of. Had you gotten its toe into some woods and had a malathrope nearby they would have mearly scratched you typically. Not to mention some bubble wrap to force them out into possibly being out of range due to scatter and such.

It also has a 6+ invuln save. For some reason nobody remembers that in the apocalypse battle reports I've seen.

Biggest issue with the biotitan is its guns are overcosted by about 20 points each. The biotitan is designed to beat up other titan level ranged combatants. It is initiative 6 with lashwhips and has a pretty big pile of attacks to deal with whatever it is slamming into. Grav sucks, but hard counters are like that.

(Also, if you wanted to see how to build your own biotitan, check out my updated vehicle and monstrous creature design rules linked in my sig)

 Savageconvoy wrote:
Super heavy vehicles ignore the incremental damage results from penetrating hits though. They don't get stunned/shaken, they don't lose weapons, they don't get immobilized.

MCs/GMCs don't suffer incremental damage by default as well.

 winterwind85 wrote:

But back to the luck thing.
Even without a cover save (which is foolish with access to malathropes and the silly GC rules which grant them one from terrain just like infantry) you should still only lose 5-6 wounds typically.

I would call it better luck that the other player didn't take out the malanthrope first... or is a T5 W4 3+ armor save creature that hard to kill nowadays?

Let me flip it around... If nids drop-podded turn 1 with 300-400 points worth of stuff, and blew up 3 Imperial Knights in that turns shooting, would that seem balanced?

 jeffersonian000 wrote:
I actually agree that Marines do not need Grav, which should have appeared as an AdMech weapon system rather than as the Marine go-to heavy weapon. In AdMech list, Grav makes sense, and normally can't be taken in large numbers without a pretty huge tax.

SJ

We need grav to kill GK faster.

 casvalremdeikun wrote:
The issue lies more with Bio-Titans being ridiculously overpriced relative to other GCs. Cut their price down quite a bit and leave Grav alone. Grav is good for basically ONE thing. Killing heavily armored stuff. It blows against stuff with bad armor saves. It isn't stellar against vehicles. It has bad range. It only works on a relentless platform. It costs as much or more than weapons that are much more versatile. Grav is fine, all non-Eldar GCs are overpriced(read: the Wraithknight is horribly underpriced).

Basically this.

 Frozocrone wrote:

 winterwind85 wrote:
I played my Biotitan in the Last apoc Game.
Space Marine Player dropped a squad of 3 centurions with Pod next to him killing him Instantly with grav And missile Shooting in the Shooting Phase.
300 points Unit killing a 1000 Point Unit ... No way to avoid!!!!!

We Need a fix for grav And gargantuan creatures

If you're playing strict rules as written since you're meta doesn't feel kindly about house rules (if it's the Hierophant you're talking about) take the Incubation Chamber upgrade and have a Venomthrope inside the Hierophant. Gives you Shrouded.

Then stick a single toe inside a piece of Ruins. Bam, 2+ cover! (make sure you negate perfect timing with all your Psychic Dice though )

Other than that, it's not make GC more survivable too Grav, it's reduce the amount of shots/number of platforms you can take it on that don't care for Salvo.

That's the solution.

stopcallingmechief wrote:

 Kanluwen wrote:

 Ashiraya wrote:
When are you ever not going to ignore its 2+ when you fire at a T9 model?

2+ is extremely overrated unless it's on a cheap MC like a riptide.

And the Hiero is not cheap.

It's GRAV WEAPONRY.

It's amazing against models with high armor saves, but trash against things with low armor saves.
So while Grav might slaughter that Hierophant, it's wounding Gaunts on a what now?

who even fields gaunts? your meta must be full of forge the narrative kind of players if they do.

so basicly you have a tool to help address the issue and refuse to consider using it? this is why I tend to roll my eyes at these kinda chicken little issues half of em amount to "OMG! THE GAME IS CHANGING AND I MIGHT HAVE TO ADAPT TO A NEW META! IT'S HORRIABLE!"

Allow me to explain what you did wrong:

1) No bubble wrap. Even a few Gaunt swarms loosely spread out will prevent droppods from being able to get close

2) No cover. You have a broken rule that grants you cover as though your 120 foot tall monstrosity was an infantry man. Use it.


As for Grav, well I see no issue with it atmo. I play IG and it is the one heavy weapon that I love facing. "I have grav, I wound on your armour save, whats your veterans save - 4+ isnt it" "Nope, 5+ - all my veterans have camo gear for that nice juicy grav ignoring cover save" "but but but this means my Grav cannons are usless and I should have brought heavy bolters" "Well thats your hard look isnt it"

*Dice roll. 4 Veterans are wounded. Only one fails his 3+ cover save*

"Imperial Guard are OP" "Really? Next time bring the right tools instead of relying on a one trick pony"

 master of ordinance wrote:
Allow me to explain what you did wrong:

1) No bubble wrap. Even a few Gaunt swarms loosely spread out will prevent droppods from being able to get close

2) No cover. You have a broken rule that grants you cover as though your 120 foot tall monstrosity was an infantry man. Use it.


As for Grav, well I see no issue with it atmo. I play IG and it is the one heavy weapon that I love facing. "I have grav, I wound on your armour save, whats your veterans save - 4+ isnt it" "Nope, 5+ - all my veterans have camo gear for that nice juicy grav ignoring cover save" "but but but this means my Grav cannons are usless and I should have brought heavy bolters" "Well thats your hard look isnt it"

*Dice roll. 4 Veterans are wounded. Only one fails his 3+ cover save*

"Imperial Guard are OP" "Really? Next time bring the right tools instead of relying on a one trick pony"

Yeah. Grav is only one weapon in the sea of bloody things avaliable, and also happens to be the only one that can reliably take out Bio-titans, and you complain about it? What would have happened if your Hierophant went agaisnt an army without Grav Guns, what are they going to do then?